You Don’t Have to Change to Change Everything w/ Beth Kurland

You Don’t Have to Change to Change Everything w/ Beth Kurland

June 12, 2024

Beth Kurland has helped people overcome and work through difficult emotions for the past 30 years. She has developed a system that build 6 inner vantage points within the psyche to analyze and work through problems. On this episode she’ll detail each of these vantage points and help you to access them during times of stress.

Episode Transcript:

1:04

welcome back to the show I’m your host Marc um here with Dr best Beth kurland and we’re talking about Vantage points

1:10

different ways that you can look at your life different ways that you can um shift your mindset in order to be not

1:16

just happier but healthier at the same time so she is an author um she’s a speaker she’s a psychologist Bel Beth

1:23

welcome to the show thank you so much Mark I’m excited to be here yeah so so I’m always curious we we often start a

1:29

show with people’s personal stories right and I’m I’m a therapist Euros psychologist so we all have a a storied

1:34

history typically that gets us into this field um so I’m curious how did you get

1:39

started on doing this work yeah so let’s see I kind of think back to when I was quite small even

1:49

probably like school age elementary age I I really was called to writing

1:54

actually um at that time mostly poetry but that was kind of my self

2:00

uh expression my chance to really explore whatever emotions were present

2:06

for me and and I think when I look back it’s it’s kind of like I think my my writing at that time was was my way of

2:12

like mindfulness meditation you know that I didn’t have a name for it but when I would be upset about something I

2:17

would just grab my pen and paper and or or inspired by something or in awe about something and would would write so I

2:24

thought I wanted to be a writer that was kind of you know then leading up fast forward to 11th grade

2:30

and I took a social psychology class in high school and um and I loved it and

2:36

one of the things that we had to do was to be paired with a younger student from

2:41

middle school as a kind of a mentor and so I would meet with this person you

2:46

know every week or something like that just be a supportive person for them but I but there was something about that

2:52

that just really spoke to me and so from then on it was just you know kind of

2:57

became crystal clear to me that I wanted to follow this path um and so so it was

3:04

a kind of a straight shot for me schoolwise but you know an interesting personal journey in the midst of all

3:10

this because my mom died when I was uh

3:16

15 and so so there was a lot of grief yeah uh at that time that I didn’t

3:23

really know how to process um you know and and so I think I went through a lot

3:31

of my early you know late teens even early 20s kind of with a lot of these

3:38

emotions that I hadn’t quite made sense of and and found a place for and um and

3:45

it really wasn’t until a little bit later on into my 20s and early 30s when

3:51

I really dove into my own therapy work uh personal therapy work that you know

3:57

that I came to kind of work with with some of these

4:04

really intense emotions that had been present there all along um so so I guess

4:12

that that feels like an important backdrop for me of of what led me to and

4:17

even with writing this book so I wrote this book during the pandemic and so I feel like I’ve been blessed in my career

4:24

I got to kind of have the dream of being a writer um and also being a therapist

4:31

but um I wrote this book during the pandemic and especially in those early

4:37

stages both for myself so I’m wired kind of on the anxious side more high stress

4:43

I would say just temperamental wise you know from childhood and um and having

4:50

some early trauma I think that you know rewires the nervous system as as you know um so so there’s it’s kind of that

4:57

for me but um you know going through the pandemic both myself personally all the uncertainty and fear and especially in

5:03

those early stages um and then sitting with so many people virtually all my patients and and

5:10

we were all collectively going through this together which is a very interesting experience as a therapist um

5:17

you know there was this sense of how do we grapple with all of this these

5:22

intense emotions that are coming up for people and and I was struck by this idea

5:28

that even when happiness is not present because I found myself there was a point I wrote in my journal like you know I

5:34

miss my old happy self like but yet I felt that I could find

5:41

well-being nonetheless um and and could help other people find ways of really

5:47

tapping into what I what I call this deep well of well-being that I think is this innate capacity that we all have um

5:55

and so that anyway that was really the backdrop of writing the book

6:00

um so it was very interesting yeah the pandemic was wild for our industry right like you said everyone was going through

6:07

it you know it was the same session again again of like yep you know didn’t leave the house again still lonely still

6:12

bored you know still don’t really know what to do or some people living in a lot of paranoia right and like you know

6:18

because it was unclear what the protocol was and especially in the beginning how serious this thing was going to be you

6:23

know there were people that you were watching their groceries multiple times right or I had clients that set up like

6:28

UV lights in their you know entryways to like disinfect everything it was hard to know if this was like going to kill

6:35

people right or if it was just something that was just kind of weird for a couple years which it turned out being the later probably because of vaccines

6:41

working you know um but yeah I’m curious about about that for you like I think it

6:48

showed a lot of people their Shadow because it took away their distractions and their social connections and way to

6:53

sit with ourselves a lot so in hearing you talk I I associate also to Buddhism

6:58

and this idea of just having to meditate be mindful and see what’s underneath everything did you have that experience

7:04

during the pandemic did it strip away some layers for you absolutely yeah absolutely yeah and in fact when I’m

7:11

trying to think timing wise right before the pandemic started like in that fall I started an intensive training a

7:18

certificate class in mindfulness and Psychotherapy and I had studied meditation and mindfulness and so forth

7:25

you know in the previous years but but this was a really deep dive and so that was actually incredibly helpful for me

7:33

to have that because I would be you know waking up in the middle of the night heart racing with anxiety my

7:40

husband was a Frontline worker for a period of time there um and for me to be

7:46

able to have a way to work with those emotions as they were coming up um and

7:52

to to have some tools and you know I teach this stuff because I need to learn it myself right it’s um and it’s what

7:59

helpful for me as well but when I could notice the nature of my own mind and the way that a lot of my own let’s say

8:06

suffering in that moment you know 2 am was my mind racing off to some place in

8:12

the future which actually wasn’t here right now like that’s helpful to be able to have a way of noticing that and then

8:21

coming back to okay what’s present what’s here yeah I think the mindfulness in the

8:27

in the Buddhist thought is critical I’ve studied that deeply too and it it’s changed my life and I love hearing

8:33

stories like yours where yeah you’re a practitioner but you’re partitioning on things that you know work for yourself

8:38

you know I think there are there could be too many people in our field that are just all book smart and haven’t actually done the work or done their own therapy

8:44

so it’s great to hear that you are utilizing that in your own life right because I think it just makes you a more reputable Source right it makes you more

8:52

trustworthy and and I yeah and I I I truly love to teach things that have

8:57

been transformative for me and for my P patience and you know having sat with patients over 30 years I feel like it’s been such a privilege to have a window

9:05

into people’s lives and and to be able to support them through their challenges

9:10

and I think what’s come out of that for me is just how common this common humanity is that we all experience you

9:18

know and I’ll have guys coming into my office and saying like you know oh my God I can’t believe I’m feeling this way

9:24

or what’s wrong with me or you know thinking that like I must be crazy I’m

9:29

experiencing this stuff and I’m like no you’re human you know

9:35

and I’ve sat with you know so many people that are experiencing something

9:40

similar and and so it’s a relief for people I think to to know that they’re not alone absolutely it’s so validating

9:46

and I think confidence building to hear like oh yeah I’ve seen this before right

9:51

and there’s a way out right like there is a there is there are solutions there are ways to get over you know call it

9:57

anxiety depression loneliness or or whatever people’s issue of the day is um yeah I mean sounds like you been doing

10:03

this job for a while I’ve been doing it for about a decade and it gets wild to see the patterns emerge you know and to

10:09

see like I mean of course there are always outliers but for the most part people tend to Cluster in a couple different archetypes of what really ails

10:17

them you know yeah and and what I found is that um and this book kind of touches

10:23

on it my previous book touches on it that there are these mental habits that we can get caught in and those mental

10:29

habits to some degree have to do with our evolutionary wiring and our biological wiring and if we can

10:37

understand those mental habits then we can and learn tools for

10:42

how to work with them it really becomes a game changer yeah yeah so so let’s

10:47

dive into the book right so right the title is you don’t have to change to change everything I want to start there

10:53

what do you mean by that specifically that’s a very catchy and evocative title yeah so I think a lot of people come

11:00

into therapy but certainly not just therapy I think in life uh that we can

11:05

go through life thinking that you know I need to fix myself I need to change myself I need to become a a a new

11:12

improved version of who I am I’m broken there’s something wrong with me uh why

11:18

am I feeling this way I should be happier you know all of these kinds of

11:24

things and so and and I think there’s an emphasis in the self-help literature although there’s wonderful things out

11:30

there but there can be a little bit of message of that you know of almost like I’m not good enough and I I need to

11:36

change something to make myself better and I need to change how I feel in order

11:42

to be okay and so I really wanted to turn that on its head a little bit and

11:47

start from this place of um you know how do we meet ourselves where we are and

11:54

that whatever we’re feeling um can we learn how to meet and greet and be with

12:00

be present with that um and I think that can be a relief to for people to know oh

12:05

I don’t like have to get rid of this thing that I’m feeling or as if it’s bad

12:11

as if it’s you know somehow it’s wrong that it’s here but okay here are some tools what do I do when I I’m starting

12:18

to feel this um and and but so change I think comes about at least as I’ve seen

12:25

it and experienced it most profoundly when we change how we relate to our

12:30

inner experiences it’s not about changing those inner experiences again as I have

12:35

to get rid of or fix but just when we shift where we stand and that’s where that shifting the Vantage Point comes in

12:41

where we shift where where we’re standing our what we see looks

12:46

different and you know so in terms of when we’re talking about difficult emotions a lot of times I think we are

12:54

either uh caught in them kind of hijacked by them caught up in the you

12:59

know whatever is happening that anger that irritability that frustration that you know um could be sadness you know or

13:07

we’re avoiding pushing away trying to suppress um and I think we’re socially

13:13

and culturally conditioned I think especially or you know maybe more so even for men uh that there’s that kind

13:20

of social conditioning that certain feelings are okay or certain feelings are okay to show or even to

13:27

feel um so what what do you do when that uncomfortable energy comes up in the

13:33

body which it will time and again because this is you know this human life that we live in and um so instead of

13:40

thinking I got to go in there and change and fix it’s like okay if I shift where I’m

13:46

standing and where you know where I’m looking from things begin to change

13:51

possibilities begin to emerge that you hadn’t maybe been able to see before

13:56

yeah I really like what you’re saying and I work similarly right where it’s about coming into a relationship with these feelings rather than trying to

14:02

like kill them right and I think it’s a struggle for men just like you said right because we are the more predatory

14:09

sex right like we do want to kill and suppress and like destroy things especially bad feelings right whether

14:15

it’s in us or in our partners or the people around us right when somebody is sad men often really struggle how to

14:20

deal with that because we’re like oh just make the sadness go away right just kill the sadness you know whether that’s you know through a joke or you know

14:27

through some version of comfort or through substance use right we’re always doing that but we’re very rarely

14:32

attuning and being with things like sadness or grief like you mentioned earlier you know I think men you know

14:39

like you said we can feel like happy we can feel angry we can feel horny and that’s about it right we don’t get to

14:46

feel sad we don’t get to feel jealous we don’t get to feel defeated we don’t really get to feel afraid we have so

14:51

many of these emotions that are are you know Behind These really thick walls so I wonder when you’re working with guys

14:57

or or when a guy is thinking about picking up this book how can they build that kind of emotional intelligence and

15:02

start to you know widen their aperture and have more of a feeling experience yeah

15:09

so where where to start a lot of different I gu a lot of threads on that one lot of different ways I could could

15:15

respond here but I guess I would say you know so the the six shifts in vantage

15:22

point that I talk about in some ways they build on one another in some ways they um have to do with developing some

15:32

mindful awareness to be able to notice what’s going on but sometimes I think about it this way that we know more

15:38

about our cars sometimes than we do about what’s going on under the hood here oh yeah um

15:45

and there’s also a way in which I think importantly um understanding what’s going on in our autonomic nervous system

15:52

actually is um an important foundational piece that we can you know maybe just

16:00

dive into a little bit um at some point because that becomes foundational for

16:05

for really knowing what to do with these turbulent energies that you know we all

16:11

experience and that men experience and may not have learned what to do when

16:17

this comes up yeah so so say a little about that we we do have some time before a commercial break of you know

16:23

working with the a autonomic nervous system right because you’re right it’s not like a car you can’t just like take out a part and put in a better part you

16:29

have to work with it relationally yeah but we want to understand kind of what’s Happening

16:35

underneath the surface right and so if we can um you know if we’re we’re

16:40

driving with the the accelerator going you know stuck on the ground going 60 M an

16:45

hour all the time that’s not gonna you know give give us a nice smooth ride if

16:52

we’re driving with the uh emergency brake engaged that’s not going to give us a smooth ride either and yet we have

16:59

these um protective and survival circuits of our autonomic nervous system

17:05

that evolved to help our ancestors survive that classic fight flight and

17:10

then the freeze response and a lot of times um we can sometimes be stuck in

17:17

those protective circuitry without realizing it and um and then you know learning I

17:26

call that our old operating system and it’s there for a reason it serves a helpful purpose but we also have this

17:32

newer operating system and we when we can learn how to access that and I’m happy to you know dip into that more um

17:39

that can really be empowering in terms of then you know what do we do when these emotions start to surface yeah so

17:47

I’m hearing like one hope is out there it is possible to get an upgrade and to really gain some kind of you know

17:53

Mastery over the inner world right so that it can be something that serves us and that we can really relate with

17:59

rather than something that can control or push us away you know I’m happy that we’re diving into the meat of the conversation we’re going to move to our

18:05

commercial break and we come back we’re going to just dive into those six Vantage points that you’ve been talking about and helping our listeners really

18:11

understand how they can make a mindset shift right away so thank you so much for tuning in and we’ll see you on the other side of the

18:27

break

18:57

e

19:27

e

19:57

e e

20:44

welcome back to the show so now that we’ve set the stage uh for the fact that you can get better you can help you can

20:51

build up your relationship with your inner world and you can have emotions not be scary but actually be pleasurable

20:56

be part of being human like you’re saying uh Beth so you talked about these different Vantage points that people can

21:01

move you know through and move between can you say a little bit first about what a vantage point is in your view in

21:07

your framework yeah so a vantage point is really I’m a very concrete person so I I

21:15

think about sort of where am I standing and where am I looking from what’s my viewing point you know if I’m and and in

21:21

relation to difficult emotions uh you know if I’m um caught in the middle of

21:27

the storm so to speak right the emotional storm well I’m getting pelted with rain and and and

21:33

snow and wind and whatever and that that’s you know a pretty intense experience right um and you know if I’m

21:40

trying to fight against that storm that can be exhausting especially because we

21:45

can’t always stop the storms whether they’re the internal or the external ones around us you know uh or there’s

21:51

things we can do to help might bring ease there but um but this idea that you

21:57

know if we can find some safe shelter to stand under or even have a protective

22:03

raincoat you know that uh shelters us from the storm and and be able to kind

22:09

of watch from you know a little bit of a a step back there there’s um we’re not

22:16

we’re not swept away by it there’s a little bit more space there’s a little bit more distance to notice what’s

22:21

happening what’s going on in here and what does it need you know how can I attend to

22:29

this you know inner disturbance that’s arising in a way that’s wise and skillful absolutely yeah before you dive

22:35

in I just want to talk to male listeners right like it’s a it’s a rhetoric I say a lot but this right here that Dr kin’s

22:41

talking about this is the hero’s journey you know it’s like facing these inner storms and really like showing up with

22:47

your eyes open versus pushing them away which I think a lot of us have been conditioned to do is like deny that

22:52

there’s a storm oh there’s no tornado there’s there’s no hurricane but that’s crazy you know I think what about to

22:58

talk about is really strength in my mind is like that’s true emotional strength is and emotional honesty being clear

23:05

that like yeah I’m going through a storm right now and like you said how do I tend to it how do I survive it and how

23:11

do I learn from it yeah and part of the the challenge or or issue I think for

23:17

people is that when we you know if you think about emotions like a pot of boiling water on a stove and if you just

23:24

put the lid on it eventually it’s gonna spill over it’s going to you know show

23:29

up in some ways shapes and forms that may not you know be intended um but but

23:38

I think importantly how do we find kind of a a a safe way of moving through

23:43

these emotions so they don’t overtake us um so we want to not swing to either

23:48

extreme ignoring suppressing pushing away the Other Extreme getting completely swept up in and by the way

23:56

it’s completely normal to feel just to be on both I I I’ve been on that a lot like so that’s it’s not like it’s you

24:02

know uh striving for some unrealistic Perfection here but it’s just knowing

24:07

what to do okay when when I’m getting tossed about how do I find that sort of stable Middle Ground place um yeah and

24:16

that’s where the anchor view comes in that first and most fundamental uh viewing Point great yeah so Dive Right

24:22

In what’s the anchor view how would you explain yeah so the anchor viw was all about kind of going back to what I started tou on with this idea of the

24:29

autonomic nervous system getting triggered um that when we go about our day and we don’t realize this but below

24:35

the surface of our awareness we have the surveillance system that’s always on it’s always looking for cues of threat

24:41

and danger or for cues of safety you know and that threat what I’m referring to here in in in probably most of our

24:47

listeners day-to-day lives you know could be an argument with a a spouse or a friend or a partner it could be a kid

24:54

who’s screaming you know it could be being stuck in traffic it could be Financial stress it could be self-esteem

25:01

issues right all those kinds of threats um but our brain doesn’t know the

25:06

difference between a saber-tooth tiger and some of our modern day challenges so what happens it mobilizes our resources

25:13

to fight that Predator quote predator or or to run away um and you know which

25:20

shows up as our anger and irritability and anxiety and rumination and you know

25:27

all these kinds of things or sometimes we can go into shutdown mode which is another protective circuitry of the

25:34

nervous system um that that sends messages up to the brain and that can be more like you know just kind of P

25:41

metaphorically pulling into one shell you know pulling the covers over one’s head just shutting down shutting people

25:48

out that kind of response and and it’s normal to experience that that is part

25:55

of our biological wiring but um it doesn’t always give us the

26:01

resources that are most helpful to meet the actual challenges at hand right if you’re in the middle of an argument and

26:07

you’re sort of just yelling and screaming it’s probably not gonna help

26:13

you know move that situation along in the best way um so that’s where grabbing

26:19

an anchor comes in this idea of of grabbing an anchor is actually means how do we bring some more balanced energy

26:26

into our autonomic nervous system because when we do that when we bring a

26:31

little more balanced energy in we tap into this whole vental vagel pathway it’s it’s a the Vegas nerve has two

26:37

branches and I won’t get into the whole thing but but it’s fascinating that we have this newer more newly evolved

26:44

circuitry um of our our nervous system and brain and that when we can bring in

26:50

enough cues of safety and balance for our nervous system it kind of opens up this Treasure Chest that I think of it

26:57

as the treasure chest is that we can see a bigger picture we can step back we can problem solve we have access to

27:03

creativity we have access to more compassion and self-compassion we feel more

27:10

confident um you know we can access all of these inner resources that are there

27:15

but when our nervous system is kind of out out of balance and and you know out of whack it’s a lot harder to do that um

27:25

so learning how to grab an anchor is all about different

27:30

practices um that can help us bring that stabilizing energy and so some of it has

27:36

to do with breath work um and and these are all there’s no right I don’t think there’s a absolutely a right answer for

27:42

anybody but these are things both in the research um my own experience working with people that I found most helpful uh

27:49

but breath work is one um it using imagery is another um lots of different

27:57

ways of work with the mind and body together to just even interrupting for

28:03

like two or three minutes yeah um being able to take a mindful pause you know

28:08

that kind of thing interrupts those survival circuits and allows the cortex

28:14

to come online it allows us to be able to then step back a little bit and it’s like

28:20

okay um I feel a little more ground and stable you know Solid Ground underneath

28:25

me what what is needed in this situation so it can be a real um you know really

28:32

helpful place to start when we’re experiencing this inner turbulence yeah

28:38

I like that right just grounding and finding a way to kind of short circuit the emotional storm because like you said if we’re being hijacked by those

28:44

more lyic brain right lower function things we’re not going to be able to use any skills at that point right we’re

28:50

just going to lose our mind and like you said either blast somebody or go and hide um so what’s the next vantage point

28:57

when somebody gets it gets anchored um is able to just like survey the situation yeah so the next one is what I

29:04

call the child view and that one um you know if if anybody’s had a chance to be

29:09

around small babies um it’s quite fascinating you know there’s this innate curiosity that children have that

29:16

children and bab you know even a very very young age have and it’s this curiosity to turn towards things and to

29:23

explore you know to pick up a crumpled piece of paper and be like oh wow what is this this is interesting right well

29:30

um we don’t because we’re wired typically with our more unpleasant emotions to push them away you know and

29:37

then again there was some evolutionary value for avoiding you know what was unpleasant and seeking what’s Pleasant right so so we we have this innate

29:45

wiring um we have this socialization that also feeds that so when we come up

29:51

against these uncomfortable emotions or even these thoughts that are going through our head or physical Sensations

29:57

in our body IES we’re often tuned out we’re we’re on automatic pilot we’re not even aware

30:04

that these messages and signals are going on underneath the surface and so

30:09

the the child view is all about cultivating some curiosity which is an essential part I

30:15

think of mindful awareness to be able to like can I start to really get curious like what’s happening here okay what a

30:22

second you know my partner just said something oh and all of a sudden like I just feel like everything just tightened

30:29

up and I can feel myself shutting down right now right but if I can start to get curious about that um

30:37

curiosity at least as I think of it has a non-judgmental quality to it you know

30:42

it’s not like oh Jesus what am I doing I can’t believe I just you know I’m feeling it but it’s but it’s it’s got a

30:49

gentler approach to it and and so that second Vantage Point shift is all about

30:55

learning how to bring some curiosity to these inner signals to begin to pay

31:03

attention and and be able to then listen to what is the wisdom of the body it’s

31:09

telling us well what I’m hearing is there’s also that kind of mindfulness or that meditation you know Epiphany that

31:14

people have when they start to practice that like they are not their thoughts you know as you’re describing this you have you know you talk about the you

31:21

right which is this witness as Observer this curious entity you know this scientist in a way like that’s just

31:26

studying whether good or bad and then there’s your emotions and I think like I I really want to underline that point

31:32

because I think that is critical to do any kind of emotional work quite frankly is to be able to make that initial

31:38

separation and be like oh yeah I could be having these thoughts I could be having actually really dark thoughts like you know if I’m a dude I could

31:43

think about leaving my wife or maybe there’s a moment where I think about actually hitting my kid I’m not going to do it but I thought about it you know or

31:50

I think about like going and drunk driving drinking a bunch and leaving and running away and blowing up my life and becoming an avocado farmer and Biz or

31:57

whatever right like like and I think people if they don’t have that mindful awareness they think that they take it

32:02

seriously they’re like oh because I’m having these thoughts this must be how I truly feel this must be who I am

32:08

underneath everything right maybe I am this monster maybe I am this violent person maybe I am a coward versus I

32:15

think what you’re saying it’s like it’s just phenomenon it’s just like look at it and the thing that you really are is

32:21

the Observer right is the person that’s in the vantage point it’s not AB the storm around you right yeah and I think

32:28

we can become curious about sometimes you know I think a lot of times for people that there’s there’s various

32:36

kinds of trauma that people have experien you know some more of the intense big tea trauma if you will but

32:42

there’s the small tea traumas right there’s a little the the just the things that happen in third grade being laughed

32:47

at or you know th these exper these early experiences that can shut us down

32:54

and then what happens is that so even let’s just use that examp example somebody who got laughed at you know say

32:59

uh speak you know speaking out for the class when they were in third grade and that experience you know the the

33:05

survival brain comes in well that’s dangerous we’re not we don’t want to ever feel that again okay so walls go up

33:11

things shut down there now fast forward to you know maybe a job where you have

33:17

to speak out in front of a me you know at a meeting or something like that and the Brain you know starts to look for

33:24

like okay is there secq a threat here that I need to mobile these resources turn on that survival and shut down or

33:30

to fight back and it could remember that you know early experience this is all

33:37

often unconscious right um and we you know then we have these reactions that

33:42

we don’t even realize where they’re coming from and so part of this curiosity too as we learn to get curious

33:49

we could be curious about is what I’m actually feeling is it about what’s happening

33:54

right here in this very moment or is this also maybe triggering or tapping into something that could be older uh

34:02

because it’s helpful to differentiate that it can be very helpful to do that

34:08

yeah there’s a great phrase that was thrown around in my AA groups which is um if it’s hysterical it’s historical

34:13

right if you’re having like a reaction that just doesn’t seem to fit it’s probably triggering something in the past and that could be a good cue to be

34:20

curious of like oh what’s going on here um so yeah so you have the child view

34:25

and the next one you mentioned is the audience View so how do they move into that Vantage Point yeah so that one I I

34:31

feel like the child view and the audience view you know again there’s a bit of a natural progression here and it it kind of um touches into what you were

34:40

speaking about a few minutes ago but once we start to get curious and we can

34:45

be curious about you know our our physical Sensations our emotions our thoughts our behaviors like all of that

34:53

um then we can I think of it this way way um you

34:58

know imagine that you’re there’s a play there’s a performance on stage and if you are one of the actors on stage

35:05

you’re caught in the middle of the drama but now locate yourself in the audience and you’re watching that

35:12

performance there’s a very different experience right there a very different feel to it there’s more space and

35:19

distance between you and what’s happening on the stage um and so there’s

35:26

this idea that if we can step back and become that Observer it’s it’s like deepening that ability to become the

35:35

mindful witness The Observer of what’s Happening um not in a disconnected way

35:40

but in a very kind of leaning in way right um then we can get curious about

35:45

like what are these narratives going on in my head you know and how true are they and you know okay I just broke I

35:52

had this breakup and now I’m saying to myself I’m worthless nobody’s going to love me uh you know I’m never gonna find

35:59

anybody else I’m I’m no good you know whatever right we all have these narratives that that come about from

36:05

whatever just difficult events in our life and we often do take those as truth as you said that we’re so attached to

36:12

our thoughts as if I think it it must be so or if I’m feeling it it must be there

36:17

must be a truth to it and and so by learning how to take the audience view we create a little bit of that space and

36:26

distance to say you know even just being able to add the phrase I

36:31

noticed that you know so instead of I’m so stupid you know uh I’m a

36:39

failure if people can add the phrase you know I notice that I’m having the thought that I’m so stupid I notice that

36:47

I’m having this thought that I’m a failure right now well right there you

36:52

just created a little bit of that that stepping back that loosens the grip and

36:59

and and invites in this idea that some of what probably a lot of what goes to our mind is like mental constructs that

37:06

we we can choose what we do with them once we see them for what they are totally yeah and like just to regret

37:12

your point right it’s stuff often from our past and if we have that story like you talk about you know the person that

37:18

was you know humiliated in third grade and they thought oh I’m broke and there’s something wrong with me or you know nobody likes me those stories

37:24

persist and they’re going to find any kind of V stimulus are going to play into those stories because the brain

37:30

just wants those stories to be true because it makes the world a predictable place even though it could be a painful place it makes it

37:36

predictable yes absolutely and the more we can bring awareness and shine that I

37:42

think of the flashlight of of mindful awareness you know turning on the flashlight in a dark room you know

37:48

trying to get from point A to point B you’re going to be tripping and stumbling on things you turn on that flashlight the the obstacles are still

37:54

there but the room’s illuminated and you can see more clearly where you’re going and that’s what these tools really allow

38:00

people to do and that the flashlight is is inherently nonjudgmental right it’s just light yes right so we’re going to

38:07

move into our next commercial break when we come back we’re going to go through the other three Vantage points um and really help our listeners walk through

38:13

this whole process it’s been a great conversation so far so hang on in there and we’ll see you on the other

38:26

side

38:56

e

39:26

e

39:56

e e

40:43

welcome back to the show I’m here with Dr Beth kurlin uh the author of the book you don’t have to change to change everything and we’re talking about the

40:49

six Vantage points that you go through that people can take mentally in order to deal with and cope and ultimately

40:56

nurture you know uh difficult emotions so the next one on the docket is the compassionate parent view I imagine this

41:02

is when nurturing starts to come into the equation absolutely yeah and again I

41:08

think there’s a kind of sequential piece here because if we can you know ground stabilize the nervous system bring some

41:14

curiosity start turning towards take that little bit of a half step back so we’re not so swallowed up in you know

41:21

and engulfed in our emotions like all of that then make space for how can we

41:27

really be with some of this inner distress and and I think at least as

41:33

I’ve seen in my own journey and in work with my patients like that’s where the

41:38

real meat of the work I think comes in and for men I I would imagine and you

41:44

probably can speak you know much more directly from um your personal

41:49

experience and and so forth but that’s you know biologically women are sort of the

41:56

nurt right so there there’s a little bit more of that innate U

42:02

builtin kind of caring car taking capacity you know and so um this idea of

42:12

how to help turn towards our inner emotions in a way where we can kind of

42:18

give them the message like hey I see you I’m with you you know I hear you um and

42:28

typically I think what happens is that if you think about um a kid who’s in

42:34

distress I use this analogy sometimes a child something disappointing happens they’re feeling sad they couldn’t get to

42:39

do something they wanted to do something got canceled and parent could have three responses they could ignore that child

42:47

and that might give the message and some way in that case if if the kids’s really s you know just like okay well what you’re feeling isn’t important um the

42:54

second response might be um hey stop your whining you know cut it out and

43:00

just like toughen up right um third response might be the parent goes puts

43:05

an arm around that child and says hey yeah of course this is upsetting and I

43:12

understand you’re disappointed that this thing happened and you know I’m here with you and we’ll figure let’s figure

43:17

out how to to move forward you know so I think most people would probably say hey I want that third parent response most

43:25

of us first of all many of us may not have gotten that third parent response um but we treat ourselves often like

43:32

that first or second parent with when it comes to our own inter okay I’m gonna kind of like just ignore toughen up or

43:38

you know like I should snap out of this that kind of thing so this this third Vantage Point shift is all about how can

43:45

we meet and greet our emotions kind of like you know opening the door to our

43:52

house as somebody’s ringing the doorbell you know you stand at the door you keep them locked out you’re not going to let

43:57

them in and let them take over your house but you might come you know sit down you want something to eat let’s

44:03

let’s chat and it’s kind of developing that ability to do that with our own

44:09

inner emotions in a way that helps ourselves uh instead of being disconnected from ourselves it’s like oh

44:16

okay you know yeah I’m I’m seen by me

44:22

and that becomes a very power powerful um place from which change emerges yeah

44:29

yeah I I think it’s really well said and like you said I think men struggle with this step because it does become that

44:34

nurturing I think that hunter killer mentality that I talked about earlier comes online where it’s like okay I’ve

44:40

I’ve witnessed it I’m aware of it but you’re really looking for weak spots you’re looking for figuring out how to kill it more efficiently versus the idea

44:47

of I think what Dr klin’s saying is like being with it nurturing it and giving it what it needs and you know it’s a whole

44:53

conversation for other podcast but I do think in the modern era men are being called called to be nurturers in a much

44:59

more comprehensive way right like we can’t just be the brute anymore we can’t just be you know the strong tough guy I

45:05

think we have to be able to show up for our friends and our family and our community and this is and we can’t do that unless you do it for yourself right

45:11

so that’s kind of a a pitch to learn some of these techniques that you’re talking about yeah and I guess I kind of

45:17

think of it a little bit like you know if you if you have your car if your car is making weird noises or something

45:23

you’re probably not gonna ignore it you know you’re probably gonna get curious and and like lean in a little bit and

45:30

try to attend to like what’s there what is what is the noise telling me you know what do I need to pay attention to here

45:38

and it’s a little bit like doing that for our own inner emotions and experiences um yeah and it you know I

45:45

think that that men can feel like this this one in particular is a little mushy gushy or that kind of thing um but in

45:53

fact you know it’s it’s where I think so much power can come from yeah that from

45:59

from that emerges from that place that I’ve seen time and again with you know

46:04

um men of all different walks of life yeah and just courage to know that like this thing like you’re not afraid of

46:10

being sad right you’re not afraid of being hurt you can actually show up and be with it I think is really critical um

46:17

yeah and I think also you know if people are in a relationships communicating that to their partner because I think a lot of men do this unconsciously right

46:23

there’s a stereotype of the man cave and I I have a man cave and I think we can like ret treat and we soothe ourselves

46:28

right we engage in our Hobbies maybe we watch TV maybe some of us drink right like we find ways to sooe ourselves but

46:34

often men don’t communicate that with their partners and their Partners end up being confused and think that they’re like retreating and running away but I

46:40

do think a lot of men know how to do this but we don’t know that we’re doing it and we also don’t communicate it very

46:47

well you know we just kind of like abruptly take space and like handle it

46:52

right versus I think a much more gentler process that you’re advocating for

46:57

and I think that communication is key yeah because you know there may there may be a little bit of an innate uh automic nervous system wiring of that

47:04

shut down or maybe going into the man cave that that might be important at times to to replenish right to to

47:10

regenerate to whatever um but if you can communicate let’s say to a partner hey

47:16

I’m you know I’m just feeling a little overwhelmed right now or this is how I’m gonna you know just take a little space

47:22

so I can reconnect with you that’s a lot more helpful than maybe just retreat without without that messaging right

47:29

100% 100% um so yeah let’s keep moving on through your Vantage points um so your next one is the mirror view you say

47:35

a little bit about that yeah so this one that I think that for many of us when we

47:41

look in the metaphorical mirror um sometimes the real mirror as well but we can often see what’s reflected back to

47:47

us is what’s wrong what’s missing um there’s such a universal sense I I I

47:53

feel like in and you know working with people over all these years of somewhere deep inside of us I’m not

47:59

enough um I need to do more I need to be more or focusing on on our mistakes the

48:05

things that we messed up on you know so we have this negativity bias of our brain that made it biologically more

48:12

helpful to remember the negative things uh to try to avoid them but but in doing so we Overlook the positive things and

48:20

in that we Overlook our own strengths and the inner resources that are already here to help support us and so the

48:27

mirror view is all about being able to kind of look in this metaphorical mirror

48:33

that reflects back one’s strengths and um inner resources the things that

48:38

you’re already you know maybe me many men may already be doing but not really

48:44

noticing like hey I made that choice today and that that really helped move me in the direction of well-being um you

48:52

know so it’s it’s beginning to pay attention in a different kind of a way I I had a great mentor in right after

48:58

graduate school Dr Robert Brooks who taught me and I’ll sort of say it in

49:03

this way that uh change comes about not by finding what’s wrong and fixing it but by finding what’s right and

49:10

strengthening it and when we can kind of flip the way that we see

49:16

ourselves um instead of going through I I call it like the H self Life Through

49:21

The Looking Through the lens of the whole self we look through the lens of the wh self the whole self you know and

49:28

that includes our imperfections and all of these different range of emotions that we experience and all of that um

49:34

but within that we really begin to focus on what are the things that um you know

49:40

even just the little choices each day that I’m making can I start to notice what’s moving me in the direction of

49:46

well-being and what’s not and yeah but um so paying attention to these kinds of

49:52

um strengths and also you know calling upon inner resources to help one let’s say somebody’s um feeling fear about

50:00

dating or fear about um you know giving a talk or or speaking up at work or I

50:07

don’t know right normal human emotions so this mirror view can also help us

50:13

really call upon the um the inner resources that are here so maybe can I

50:18

think about a time when I felt some courage you know I don’t know it could be when you were 10 years old it doesn’t

50:23

matter it could be you know a month ago or when I was you know in this setting and if we can call upon that inquality

50:30

that we already have tapped into in some area of our life or some moment in time and turn up the volume on that and have

50:36

that sit side by side the fear we don’t have to get rid of the fear we don’t have to wait to for that fear to go away

50:43

to do that thing we’re afraid of but we can you know call upon some inquality

50:48

that that is there that showed up maybe in a different area of our life and have that kind of sit I think of it is put it

50:55

in the passenger seat next to us us you know and we can put fear in the back seat and we can sit in the driver’s seat

51:01

and choose what direction we want to go um yeah I think that’s great right and I think that is that’s real strength you

51:07

know I mean our listeners are probably famar with jao willink he’s Navy SEAL dude right and like what he says is that

51:13

not that Navy Seals are not afraid but they know how to operate while afraid I think that’s what you’re talking about right it’s like the fear is not going to

51:19

go away but you can still be an effective human or partner or you know business leader employee whatever while

51:25

you’re afraid right and building that capacity is really helpful yeah so I want to make sure we have time for your

51:31

final view because we’re coming towards the end of the show the final one is the ocean view which to me uh you know

51:36

references spirituality so I’m curious if there’s a spiritual aspect to this final one absolutely there’s there’s so

51:42

much that could be said there um I guess I guess in you know different layers of

51:47

this um and we could you know get into the the whole Buddhist you know some of

51:53

the the Buddhist teachings and um and other spiritual teachings about this idea of

51:59

interconnectedness but I think you know just on a simplistic level there’s there’s the sense of um there’s a quote

52:06

by William James who happens to be the father thought of as the father of psychology something like the best thing we can do with our lives is to spend it

52:12

on something that will Outlast it and and I think of that often and this idea of um some finding something that’s

52:21

outside of ourselves greater than ourselves that we can contribute to or that we can you know where can we find

52:28

meaning and purpose in our lives um and it doesn’t have to be grandiose you know

52:33

it could be just like how am I showing up for my partner or my kids in ways

52:39

that are you know giving them some some lasting uh you know resources that

52:47

they’re carrying forward in their life um but really focusing on this idea of finding meaning and purpose that extends

52:53

Beyond us and when we do that we feel more connected and interconnected with our communities with our families with

53:00

our partners with our you know the world around us um so it’s all about finding

53:06

that connection by really you know looking outside of ourselves yeah and I

53:12

think for the guys out there like emotions are connection ultimately right it’s connecting through emotions if

53:18

you’re with somebody or you’re doing something and you feel something that’s a good sign right you want to be touched by the world so I think you know to put

53:25

some hope out there I think when when you walk through these steps that Dr kurlin you know put out you’re able to actually be touched by the world and

53:31

actually have a meaningful life versus where I think a lot of guys live which is like a really really small aperture

53:36

where we don’t we don’t feel a lot like we do a lot but we don’t often feel a lot and it seems like the stuff that we do doesn’t matter I hear that from so

53:43

many guys so I think when I think of Ocean View I connect with that idea of like actually being present and actually

53:50

like having a real experience in the world I love that yeah so so Beth has

53:56

been great to have you on the show um where can people find more about you and and get involved yeah so my website is a good

54:03

place to start lots of different free resources on there which is um Beth kin.com b t k r l n

54:12

d.com um and I have my books there as well so that’s probably kind of one one

54:17

stop PL you know easy place to end the social media links there as well um yeah

54:23

and I love to hear from people yeah so if you like this you know you got a taste of I think what’s in the book so certainly to check out the book again

54:30

it’s called you don’t have to change to change everything uh there’s a link in the show notes if you want to go ahead and buy that pick that up on Amazon um

54:37

it’s a great read so check that out it sounds like it’s really a great pathway for becoming more human uh so Dr Carin

54:43

thank you so much for being on the show oh thank you so much for having me it was a lot of fun and thank you listeners

54:48

appreciate you joining in we will see you next week another episode of the men’s therapy

54:55

podcast