Why Therapy is Difficult for Men w/ Christina Dixon

Why Therapy is Difficult for Men w/ Christina Dixon

October 6, 2023

In this episode returning guest Christina Dixon and I chat about some of the challenges men face when entering therapy.

Episode Transcript:

Intro: [00:00:00] Mark Azulay is an industry leader in psychotherapy and men’s mental health. He’s helped countless guys get back on their feet, deepen their relationships, and excel in their lives. Now he’s taken all that he has learned and is sharing it with you. In each episode, Mark will interview an expert in the field of masculinity and men’s work.

We’ll cover topics such as emotional intelligence, masculine identity. Anger management, financial health, trauma recovery, marriage and divorce, ethics, and spirituality. Tune in and become a better man. 

Mark: Welcome back to the men’s therapy podcast. I’m your host, Mark Aslan. I’m here with Christina Dixon, returning guest.

Today, we’re going to put on a professional hats. I think when we’ve talked before, it’s been about like our relationships and about, you know, dynamics as, as we’re kind of on the same path of, you know, getting engaged, getting married, thinking about children, all this stuff. [00:01:00] But today will be a topic specifically, um, about men in therapy being that we’re the men’s therapy podcast.

Um, and it’ll be around some of the barriers that I think men face getting into treatment, um, and some of the just gender dynamics and some of the, um, Industry. Reality is that I think prevent guys from getting the help that they need. 

Christina Dixon: Yeah. I’m a big supporter of everybody being in therapy. And certainly like you’re talking about more, some people have more difficulties with access and even the stereotypes or the difficulties in seeing the benefit or seeing themselves in a therapy setting.

And I think a lot of times men have more barriers to that, like you said. 

Mark: Yeah, so I want to start with some questions for you. I know you work with a lot of first responders, right? A lot of, a lot of men. Um, I’m curious from your perspective, like, what’s different as a therapist working with a male versus a female in therapy?

Christina Dixon: Wow, that’s a great question. I think the [00:02:00] first one that I, um, traditionally see, it doesn’t apply to every single person coming in my office, but men are socialized to not necessarily know their feelings, not be able to necessarily identify them, um, don’t have language or words for it. And then if you even have the ability to do so, you’re not encouraged to express them.

So I think therapy is a way that, um, a lot of men see is incredibly vulnerable, um, incredibly exposing that there may be an idea of, I have to go here and spill my guts. Uh, you know, they’re going to try to get me to cry. You know, these may be just really scary ideas of what, um, this kind of intimacy would look like.

Mark: Yeah. And I think building off that, yeah, there’s so many guys who ask, like, what do you feel? And they’re like, I don’t know. Right. And I think 1 of the, I mean, men have a lot of fears and securities, but a big 1 is, um, feeling incompetent. Right? And I think we talked about working with a female therapist, specifically feeling [00:03:00] 

Christina Dixon: emasculated.

Mark: Right? So asking them a question of, like, what do you feel? And if the answer is that they don’t know, it can be really, um, humiliating. For a lot of guys to be asked a question that we don’t have an answer to, we don’t, and we don’t even know really what the question is on some level, you know, 

Christina Dixon: right?

There’s, I think a lot for, for many of us, there’s a lot of education that goes behind it. Some families didn’t talk about anger, for instance. So we may not know what anger is or how we identified in our own bodies. But I think a lot of men, there’s a number of emotions that they haven’t been encouraged to recognize.

So looking at it differently of, is there a body sensation that you’re having? Is there a thought that you might be having, um, that might help us get information and get a vocabulary around it? But yeah, if, if the idea is I’m supposed to have my shit figured out, or I’m supposed to know certain things, and I’m going to go sit across a woman who’s going to tell me how to feel that might be a big ask for somebody, especially if, if someone is feeling emasculated in that process.[00:04:00] 

Mark: Yeah. How do you work with that? How do you like. Work with that emasculation component. I think that’s huge across the gender lines. Yeah, 

Christina Dixon: I Try to provide an environment where there’s some commonalities There’s a way that we can connect that we can build a relationship together. And then I often Provide a lot of information and education of it.

This is normal and I like to blame the bigger You know, group of it’s a society’s problem. You were never given the opportunity or, um, never given the information to be able to be good at this skill. So I’m asking you to do calculus math when we haven’t even figured out how to do addition. And if I can normalize it in a way of it’s not you, that’s the problem.

And, or how can this benefit you in your life and the things that you’re wanting to work on in therapy, then I think there’s a chance of getting some buy in. 

Mark: Yeah, I think that’s a great thing. It’s like bringing it out because I think men also I’ve noticed, [00:05:00] um, different from women talk really theoretically a lot is difficult.

I’ve seen for my guys. It takes a lot of trust and respect for them to talk about their own lives. And then even more talk about their past, like the past and their childhood and like times where they felt weak. Right. Or they made a mistake. Like, that’s like the deep dark. I think a lot of men, I mean, a lot of people, but we’ll focus on my, a lot of men carry a lot of secrets, um, a lot of hidden, like really deep shame.

Um, so yeah, I think starting from a theoretical education, like very cerebral lens can be really right. 

Christina Dixon: And if there’s a way to, to have. Uh, conversation about someone else. You might know, uh, you know, you might have a buddy that has this kind of thing. Maybe it’s not something that’s going on for you right now, but that we can bring it into the room, normalize it, um, say it’s okay, but not be the spotlight on you as an individual that you have this quote unquote problem or that you are struggling [00:06:00] with this.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. You know, there’s this quote that is. Kind of fucked up in both ways, but it comes to mind where it’s, you know, women are afraid of being killed by men and men are afraid of being laughed at by women. 

Christina Dixon: Right. 

Mark: And it’s like, definitely not to minimize, like the physical fear that I know a lot of women live with and really, um, can control their lives and really, you know, be a horrible thing.

And then men have it, but it’s in that emotional realm, right? So this idea of like being humiliated or being exposed or something, um, especially in front of women. Do you, do you notice that? Yeah. 

Christina Dixon: Yes. Yeah. And it makes me so sad as I think about that, that there’s this, this limitation of in, uh, you, if you’re using that quote, that the equivalent of being laughed at would be, um, such a threatening situation, such a, like, to an extent that I feel like I’m being killed or murdered or physically attacked.

Um, certainly nobody wants to be laughed at, but. If we could be vulnerable, [00:07:00] if we can understand I’m not perfect at everything, or I’m not going to be able to do all the things immediately, but that I can, um, be honest or raw and not be, you know, attacked, um, it’s, it’s sad to think that that’s a situation that many men live with.

Mark: Yeah, I think a lot of us do, you know, and I think it’s more and more common as generations go down. And I think as men get, um, I say tactfully, but it’s like kind of like not relevant, not as relevant, right? Because of all the great movements that feminism is doing, like women have jobs and they don’t need a man.

And there isn’t like that survival pressure nearly like it was even, you know, uh, 30, 50 years ago, right? I think men are feeling this real gap of like, what is my function? And women have a lot more power and they’re really intimidated. By the power that that women have, 

Ad: you know, 

Mark: um, when I work with a lot of my guys, again, especially millennial generation younger, they most of what they [00:08:00] do is for women, right?

Like, like, they’re, they’re being successful because they want a woman to give them attention, or they want to get laid right on the most base level, or they, they want to get married or something. And the opinion of the women in their lives is very, very powerful 

Christina Dixon: for them. And then if you imagine, um, Talking about things that are vulnerable or scary or raw and doing so in front of a woman as a therapist, potentially, um, that if I, if my sort of center is around pleasing women or around taking care of women, then how in the world am I going to be authentic and raw in front of a therapist?

And I have had that a few times with men of my impulses to take care of you. Uh, you know, uh, my role should be to, to make sure that you’re okay. And if I’m telling you this hard thing about my experience, I’m not sure that you’re going to be okay, so I have to protect you. 

Mark: Yeah, tell me more about that, because I that’s something that I don’t experience right being male presenting, but I’m curious.

Yeah, the types of [00:09:00] projections and transference is that come up. 

Christina Dixon: Yeah, a lot of it is in some form of of protection, whether. Um, I had worked with a police officer, actually, and, and, um, at one point we were working on the weekends, I think, because of his schedule, and so I was the only car in the parking lot, and he would sort of, um, I don’t want to say lecture, but it was a, I want you to know that you’re the only one out there.

That this area has a certain crime rate. Um, be sure that when you’re walking out of the door, that you’re looking in these various ways that you check your back seat. Um, that there was a lot of concern about my wellbeing. Um, if I’m working with someone who is talking about some kind of an abuse or some kind of a violent situation, it’s, uh, I’ve, I’ve had people say to me and men specifically, I don’t want to put this into you.

I already I’m tortured by carrying this around. Why would I then? Have you have these same visions or have you have these same thoughts [00:10:00] and there’s a real, I think, barrier and a limit. Uh, there’s a wall essentially of I’m not going to hand it this off to anybody else. And I think women more so are willing to say, you know, who, how many people can I hand it off to?

Like I need that community to be able to talk about it and be able to sort of digest it. 

Mark: Yeah. That’s a really key difference. And I think you’re really putting it into words very eloquently. I know I feel that with Caroline, with my partner, right. Of like, for whatever reason, my pain is too great. Right. I don’t want to burden her emotionally.

Right. That’s like, real things that I’ve had to work through in my relationship. Um, I’ve never worked with women therapists. I’ve worked with male therapists exclusively, but I can imagine that coming up. And you’re so right. Like, women don’t feel that women just like, tell everybody, not everybody, but like, are more likely to tell more people their stuff than men.

Christina Dixon: And we’ve said this before, and I want to make sure everybody that’s listening is clear. We are making a lot of generalizations about people. [00:11:00] But yes, it’s like, I think for the most part, um, I, I don’t recall many women that have come in and said, I, I don’t want to share this with you because it’s going to be too hard for you.

It’s, it’s maybe I can’t share it because it’s too difficult for me to talk about it, but there’s not that way of. Um, I have to protect or I have to shield you or I have to take care of you in this dynamic by not telling you something that’s hard. Yeah, 

Mark: and I wonder about that, right? Because there’s so many angles, right?

I think there’s like, if you look at it through, like, a social justice lens, right? That could be misogyny, right? This idea of this inherent belief. Again, it’s like, I have misogyny. Most guys have it. Like, we’re just conditioned to it, right? I’m saying to our male audience, right? Doing that. It’s like, we just talked about, but there’s like the idea of like, oh, like, women can’t handle it.

They’re not strong enough, whatever. Right. But then there’s also this protective provider thing, which is honorable. I mean, I think it has really noble roots and it has been the male role for most of human history of the idea that like. You [00:12:00] know, men are the predators and women are the prey in some ways.

Right? Like we are there to protect, you know, the, the children bears, right? The child bears of our civilization. Um, and that’s, I think, a very noble pursuits, but it gets like, it gets wrapped up, right? Like, it’s hard to know what’s operating, um, at during that moment, you know, 

Christina Dixon: even if it is a noble pursuit, what a burden to have to carry that basically alone.

Um, because again, we, um, don’t encourage men to have the same rich social life or to have as many friends that there are certain outlets that men, um, socially are allowed to release some of their feelings, maybe over a drink at the bar, maybe, um, you know, in a sporting event, but they’re not necessarily connecting, um, in the same kind of verbal way.

And so if you’re carrying this burden of, I have to protect this, uh, you know, half of the population in a certain way. Um, you’re, you’re not getting a lot of support in doing that. 

Mark: Yeah, for sure. And this is a [00:13:00] larger conversation, but I think also the competition that a lot of men carry around is very loneliness inducing.

Right. I know most guys, including me, almost everyone I worked with guys have talked about this feeling of that they’re competing with like literally every other man on planet earth. Right. Like they’re like, yeah, maybe I have a few friends, but like, for the most part, it’s like, there’s always this battle around like, you know, and around this stuff, like providing and protecting.

Yeah. Right. Who’s the best provider? Who’s the best protector? Who has a status? Like, it is a massive competition and there’s this, I think. A lot of mistrust between men, because we are kind of all and we’re competing for women, right? Like we’re competing for, like, the right to breed is biologically kind of what’s going on, you know, 

Christina Dixon: I just had a flash and I know it’s not the topic we’re talking about, but but dating apps and the differences in gender on dating apps and how men are often just kind of talking to anybody to see what catches and then seeing if they can have a conversation.

So, yeah, there’s a sense of loneliness, but certainly competition. [00:14:00] Around how can I find people that I can connect with and or, uh, you know, have relationships with or protect. 

Mark: Yeah, I find that stuff like so fascinating because to me, it mirrors like the reproductive system, right? Like, which is like perhaps the oldest gender dynamic, right?

It’s like the most hardwired one, but it’s like the man releases all these sperm and like only one is going to make it. And the women’s, you know, biology is like these tubes and these challenges and these like hurdles and like only one’s going to get by and there’s, you know, there’s cases where like not cases happens all the time where an egg will reject a sperm, right?

Like you’ll just like cannibalize it and it won’t get fertilized. Like it’s, it’s something that is, it seems so core just baked into how the gender work, how reproduction works. And it’s just, it’s always fascinating for me when that like. Is mirrored in our society. Like the dating app is the same thing, right?

Like it’s like literally the same thing, which is crazy that that is still operating, 

Christina Dixon: but then you take all those [00:15:00] complexities and you shove it into a therapy room with power dynamics. If a therapist is a female and the client is a male, um, then there’s power dynamics, there’s status dynamics. Um, and so, yeah, all those complexities and that competition to survive.

And now we’re Asking people to be raw and vulnerable and exposed. 

Mark: Yeah, exactly. You know, um, when we took commercial break, we’ll dig into the power damage when you get back. But I just think of like, you know, there’s this myth, right? Uh, I think it’s a myth where it’s like therapists are nonjudgmental, right?

Um, when I talk to my guys, I say like, I am judgmental. I’m a human, right? The difference is, is like, I will suspend that to listen to you. And if you ask me, I will answer it fully. Right? So this idea of like a man sitting in front of a woman in power that can pass judgment on him. Yeah. Even if the woman says like, I’m not judging you.

Like, of course she is. Everyone is. I think that’s like a really vulnerable place. Right. 

Christina Dixon: Yeah. Sounds terrifying in that [00:16:00] way. Right. 

Mark: You’re in front of the court. Um, so yeah, we’re gonna, we’re gonna take a break here. We’ll move to our first portion of break. When we get back, I want to talk to you more about the power dynamics and looking at it from like a feminist social justice lens as well.

So hang on in there and we’ll see you on the other side.

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Mark: Welcome back to the men’s therapy podcast.

We’re sitting here talking about some of the barriers that men face going into therapy. I’m talking with Christina Dixon. And we’re speaking specifically about the power dynamics between men and women and in the therapy room, they often get switched, right? Like men have a lot of privilege, right? I think that’s, you can’t really argue that right in the world.

But then when you’re in this room with a professional woman in front of you, and you’re in the realm of feelings and you’re like outside of your place of work or your home, like you’re in a foreign territory, those dynamics get switched real fast. 

Christina Dixon: Right. It’s interesting. I’ve forgotten about the dynamic [00:19:00] of being in someone else’s office, but you’re absolutely right.

If I’m doing that virtual might be different, but if I’m traveling to someone else’s office, it’s their space. Um, I’m going into their room, you know, as a therapist, I come out and call you back into the room. So there are so many. Small ways in which we exert as the, the therapist, this power and it’s, it’s not used in a, um, like, I’m not thinking about it regularly.

I’m not like, oh, I’ve got all this power and I’m going to use it against my client, but there are so many subtle ways that it shows I’m in charge and yeah, that’s, that’s something that may be very uncomfortable for someone. And like you said, then we’re talking about feelings, which maybe I don’t know a whole lot about and wow, this person has so much of an upper hand.

Mark: Yeah, yeah, and it’s at another freaking element to the soup, right? It’s like, I found that most because we see this, most men come to therapy when they’re at their lowest. Like, it’s often they’re like, very last option, right? Um, and they often come in crisis where I’ve seen my female clients [00:20:00] are much more preventative care.

Right. They’re like, Oh, you know, like I just started a new relationship. Everything’s fine, but I just want to start talking about it now. Right. Which is, I think, you know, honestly the smarter way to do it. But a lot of guys come after like a relapse or a divorce or losing their job. So they’re already in a very powerless position to begin with.

Christina Dixon: Yeah. And, uh, we’re not setting men up for success in that way. We’re not encouraging them and to, to talk about things when it’s mildly upsetting or when there’s a little bit of a struggle, you know, my, my partner and I are having some challenges in communication. Let me talk about what I might be bringing to the table instead of Yeah.

Divorce or a, a sort of threat of, if this doesn’t change, then we’re done. That Mm-Hmm, , yeah. It’s a pretty low point and there’s a lot of desperation. There’s a lot of. Need for this to change quickly. And therapy doesn’t always work that way. 

Mark: Definitely does not. Um, so what are some of the power dynamics that you notice in the room with between you and your male clients?[00:21:00] 

Christina Dixon: I think there’s, depending on, um, the client’s educational level, there may be a feeling of discomfort or threat about my having a college degree and a master’s degree being licensed, which means I have to go through a few more hoops. Um, so that might be a challenge. Um, I think there are some ways that they may, you know, I’m collecting money.

And so that’s another thing that’s that’s difficult. I think for people, not only to talk about, but, um. You know, for for us to have this conversation of where’s your credit card information or, um, you know, you didn’t have payment last time or something that that could be. Um, you know, awkward or uncomfortable.

Um, I’ve had a number of people walk in and say, um, where am I supposed to sit or which one is your chair? And I love handing back to them. Uh, I sit wherever you don’t. And so I kind of this idea of, like, you can sit in quote, unquote, my chair if you want. Um, and I think that helps people [00:22:00] feel a little bit more in power, feel in control when they look at here’s a couch, here’s a single chair.

Um, and it may be a way of trying to. To change things up for me and see how I respond if they sit in my chair. 

Mark: Yeah. I think that’s like really critical. You know, how do you, how do you deal with that? I’ll be more clear about that, right? Like, I, I work with a lot of, uh, supervised therapists, right? And then mostly of them are female, which we’ll talk about.

There’s way more women therapists than males. And they really talk about how they struggle challenging their male clients, like talking about the payment, like you talked about, right? Or respond to that question about the chair, right? Like, I think there’s because there’s internalized depression on, on y’all’s end too.

Right. Right. So I’m curious, like what that experience has been like for you, how you navigate that. 

Christina Dixon: It’s taken some time. It wasn’t something that I was as comfortable with as the at the beginning. Um, I think all of us when we’re new in something, we’re a little more timid. Um, and, uh, there’s a [00:23:00] way I think that men are encouraged to to present confidence, um, in women or not.

So that might be Imbalance the scales a little bit that if a, a man is feeling, uh, uneasy about coming into a therapy session, they may overcompensate in a way of, let me challenge or let me look so co confident. And, um, I, like I said before, I try to connect on something or I try to, I think one of my techniques is to try to rattle in a way, if you’re gonna try to rattle me by sitting in my chair, I’m gonna rattle you by not caring.

It is kind of a, a, a response that I have. Um. I often in my own personal life curse, and I find that cursing in the therapy room is something many people don’t expect and or I think many men don’t expect me to curse. Yes. Yeah. And so I do like bringing that out every once in a while in a way of, can I, um, shake things up or can I maybe challenge your idea of who I am and see if we can talk a little bit about that.[00:24:00] 

Mark: Yeah, let me run this theory past you. So this is like in development. I just, I presented this as a Colorado convention. Um, this whole thing on men. And what I ended with is I said that, you know, women need safety in the therapy room and men need respect. And kind of the thrust of it was that like, most therapeutic languages around how you build safety, how you build comfort, how you build like, um, trust.

And I think it misses men’s intimacy language, which I think it’s respect. So when I hear you talk about like rattling or pushing back or like being a little more gruff, like that’s all respect building techniques. Right. It’s not, it’s not safety. Right. It’s just like, it’s being like, yeah, I fucking got it.

Right. Like fight me. Right. Like, like I can, I can handle it. I can hold it. Like I got, I understand where you’re coming from. 

Christina Dixon: Yeah, I hadn’t put it in those words, but that’s often the work that I do with men is some form of, I can handle it. I got it. And so I think if we’re having a conversation, for instance, about, um, payment, [00:25:00] you know, it’s like, I have to stand firm in that to, to get that kind of respect or get that, um, almost like street credit that, that someone knows that I can hang in the gallows humor, or I can drop an F bomb in the session, or I can laugh at something with them that I feel like there’s a lot of joining of, um, we have something in common or that I can relate to you and that, you know, Yeah.

You respect me and I respect you. 

Mark: Yeah. I like that a lot. Right. Like, yeah, you can handle because back to what we said in the beginning, it’s like you can handle their darkness. Right. And that I think for a lot of women counselors, if you’re listening, yeah. Those moments of like hesitation, men really noticed that.

And then it activates that protector. Yeah. Right. 

Christina Dixon: So what you’re talking about a little bit is the ways that we project on to a therapist or someone else. We maybe have an idea of by looking at my photo on my website or reading a description or just knowing that I’m a woman, you might [00:26:00] have certain ideas, preconceived notions about how I’m going to show up.

And so everybody does this in various ways, and maybe we can understand, Oh, I’m seeing a little bit of my sister. I’m transferring a little bit of this feeling that I see my sister or my my mother in this. I think a lot of times we don’t have that accessibility. We just know I, I like this, or I don’t like this, and I don’t know where it’s coming from.

Um, but we want to be able to. In some ways, shake that projection of I may not be. The, the girl next door that you need to protect. Um, I’m, I’m going to try to help you see that that’s what you’re doing. And I’m going to let, you know, I’m solid. I got this in whatever way that is authentic to me. Because, like you’re saying, I think people can read when we’re not authentic very clearly too.

So, for me, it’s. It’s cursing every once in a while, or it’s, um, you know, allowing them to sit in my chair or [00:27:00] something like that, you know, being okay with that, that, um, I, I shake a little bit of that idea that they have of who I might be. And it opens up some conversations. 

Mark: Yeah. You kind of like break through, um, their stereotypes, 

Christina Dixon: right.

And I think that is important in all relationships, but I think maybe more so for, for men working with women. And I’m sure your clients have an idea of who you are. Um, before meeting you or, or before really getting to know you, but it may not show up in the same way. It may not create those same kind of barriers.

They may be able to see more things that they think are in common and don’t need to get that respect from you in the same way that they might from me. 

Mark: Yeah. I think it works for me in the opposite. Like, I think it buys me a lot of rapport right out the gate. Right. It’s like, Oh yeah, it’s another guy.

Like he gets it. Right. But like, I also don’t engage in some of the stereotypical masculine things. Like I don’t watch sports. Right. I’m like, not that competitive in some ways. Right. Like I don’t have like anger [00:28:00] issues. Right. So like the, I hesitate like sometimes, but like, I, so usually the more I reveal the more like stereotypically feminine qualities, because I’m, I am a male caregiver, which is also kind of like weird for guys to think about.

Right. Um, it’s like, it’s usually opening doors that way and being like, oh, yeah, men can be X, Y, and Z. They can be softer. They can be, they can enjoy cooking and cleaning. They can whatever. Right. Um, so I, but I think I do, I get a lot of privilege. In the beginning, because it’s like, oh, it’s just like another dude, right?

I understand dudes, right? 

Christina Dixon: And I hadn’t thought about this, but I have a lot of, uh, my male clients that will ask me about my sports teams. So, we, we do have those kinds of conversations, um, so that there is this commonality or a thread and we can chat before after session about, oh, did you see that game?

Did you see what happened there? Um, to again, I think it’s just. It’s not necessarily the safeness [00:29:00] like you’re talking about, but it’s creating a place that someone feels, I think, a little bit more comfortable, whether it’s I’m respected and I feel comfortable opening up, or I feel safe and I’m comfortable, but ultimately we need to crack some of those barriers that we have and get to what’s underneath it.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. I’m curious about the transverse thing you’re talking about. Right. And, you know, for the listeners out there, I’m interested in around the same age. We’re in our thirties. Right. Which is young for a therapist or young of what you think a therapist would be. Um, so I think when I talk to a lot of my therapy mentors, I talk about, you know, people thinking that they’re their dad or their mom.

But, you know, I don’t look like that and I, you don’t look like that. So I imagine people, at least for me, they put me in like, oh, it’s my friend. Right. Or like, if I work with female clients, sometimes like, oh, this is like a boyfriend that gets projected on. I’m curious with you with men. Do you get like.

Friend or sister or girlfriend, or what do you, or do you get mom? I don’t know. I mean, [00:30:00] what’s it, what’s it like for you? 

Christina Dixon: I think there are some mom aspects, not because of the age, but because of the caretaking qualities that we often associate with a mom. So I think there can be, um, a desire to be, um, cared for, but I think that trips up again, the emasculating part of I don’t want someone who looks my age or who I think is around my age.

To think that they have to mother me, they have to take care of me or that I’m, um, broken or vulnerable in whatever ways, um, I, I have heard a little bit, not, um, sometimes for myself, but I think more so for the employees that I have more of the girlfriend. Um, type of reaction. Um, I have had some older men that I’ve worked with that have thought of me as their daughter.

They’ve talked about, I have a daughter just about your age, or um, you know, that kind of reaction. So I do think that there are a number of ways that I can be looked at as I don’t want to say a child, because I don’t think that they’re treating me like [00:31:00] a child in the room, but there’s something about, you remind me of my kid.

Mark: Yeah. And you’re just like, yeah, you got, you got this like wacky liberal ideas that my daughter has, you know, like, uh, you know, difference in generation. Um, this could be a bigger topic. And again, I’m so aware of our, our break schedule here, but what about like. Attraction. Right, because I think for men, seemingly more so than women of like, we really are only emotionally open with women that we are sleeping with.

Christina Dixon: Yeah, 

Mark: I don’t know many men that are that have close friends in general, let alone really close female friends that there isn’t like a sexual dynamic. Does that come into the room with you? 

Christina Dixon: It’s not spoken about often. I think again, there’s discomfort in talking about that, but absolutely that there’s a different type of relationship in the therapy room just in general, but sex is off the table.

It is not an option. Okay. And, um, yeah, what do we do with the fact that I’m telling you these things that [00:32:00] maybe I haven’t told a lot of people, but I certainly haven’t told people that I’m not sleeping with. 

Mark: Yeah, I think it’s like, really confusing for a lot of guys. Right. I mean, I spoke with some of my male clients about this dynamic, right?

Like, they say that, like, some of them that’s where they’ve left female therapists is because they’re like, brain and so is their dick. I guess, like, couldn’t, couldn’t comprehend it. Like, literally could not comprehend it. It got way too confusing and way too weird. And. You know, I asked him why they chose a male therapist, and that’s, that’s a, that’s an answer from a surprising amount of guys, actually, you know, 

Christina Dixon: and that leads to something.

I think we’re going to talk more about, which is that there are not a, as many male therapists in this field. We’re working to get more, um, trained therapists, but, um, a lot of times women You know, there are more women to choose from and or they may have availability, um, and specialize in something that’s related to what the person, the client needs.

And so, yeah, how how tough then to work with a female therapist. [00:33:00] Have these confusing things come up and then have to, um, find a male therapist to work with and. Maybe work through some of those things, 

Mark: the process, the relationship with the 

Christina Dixon: right. 

Mark: Yeah. 

Christina Dixon: And I recognize it. Ideally, we’re doing that with our therapist, but that is really hard.

I think for anyone to say, Hey, I’m, I’m sexually attracted to my therapist. Let me talk to my therapist about this and see how we can work through that. It’s a big ask. 

Mark: Yeah, that’s a big ask for literally anybody, right? Like, it’s crazy. 

Christina Dixon: And it’s common. It’s, it’s not unheard of that, that we have these sexual, uh, feelings, these transferences.

Again, we’re putting it onto our therapist, um, which may be an attraction and it related to something that’s not the therapist themselves, but, um, that’s really difficult, exposing vulnerable, scary, Um, hard stuff to talk about in therapy. 

Mark: Hard stuff to talk about in therapy. And I think, but sexuality is such a core part of being [00:34:00] human.

Christina Dixon: Yep. 

Mark: And it’s often where a lot of like wounding is for a lot of people. Right. Right. And it’s like, To have that be off the table. I mean, obviously you’re not sleeping with your clients, but you don’t have to be able to like to talk about it. I think it’s really limiting. 

Ad: Um, 

Mark: so I think, yeah, we’ll dive back into it.

We got to move to our commercial break, but we’ll come back. We’ll talk more.

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Intro: You are listening to the Men’s Therapy Podcast with Mark Ale. [00:36:00] To reach the show today, please call 1-888-346-NINE 1 4 1. That’s 1 8 8 8 3 4 6 91 41, or send an email through podcast at men’s therapy.online or visit www dot men’s therapy podcast.com. Now back to the men’s therapy podcast,

Mark: welcome back to the show sitting here with Christina Dixon and we’re talking about men’s bears get into therapy and we landed on talking about sexuality. Um, and how difficult it is. I mean, that’s just for like literally anyone to talk about sexuality in a therapy setting, let alone across the gender lines.

I think it certainly goes both ways. Um, so yeah, Christina, what are your thoughts around that? 

Christina Dixon: Well, I was thinking about my stereotype, and I don’t know how accurate this is, but an idea of men talk about sexual conquests. It’s a bragging, um, you know, like going back to the competition thing that you were talking about before.

So I don’t know when there’s a [00:37:00] vulnerability or a, uh, Um, uh, sort of back and forth, especially with someone of the opposite sex to be able to say, um, maybe I’m not as satisfied in my sexual relationship, or maybe I’m with someone and I’m super happy with them, but I’m fantasizing about something else that we’re not doing in the bedroom.

Or maybe, uh, in, uh, an honest and vulnerable way, um, you know, sitting across from you, I’m thinking that you would be a great partner or that, uh, I wish my partner was, or my wife or whomever was a little bit more like you, that they could listen like this or, um, you know, I want more of this intimacy in my romantic relationship.

Mark: Yeah, I, I find it’s like 1 of the last topics. It’s not the last topic to come up. I found with my guys and it’s something I talk about, like, right out the gate with them. I try to open those doors, but things like a year, if not 2 to even get there. 

Christina Dixon: Um, 

Mark: and a lot of guys, probably a lot listening because just [00:38:00] because the stats like have sexual issues, right?

A lot of men have. Premature ejaculation and erectile dysfunction, and we’re a very unsatisfying sex lives or, you know, don’t know how to feel pleasure. Right. I mean, there’s so many men it’s, there’s a stereotype and again, maybe this is more younger generation, but the stereotype of men being these like lustful creatures and sex is all about male pleasure.

And there are so many men that I’ve talked to that like, do not feel pleasure from sex, 

Christina Dixon: right. 

Mark: And feel that judgment of like. Can I give my partner an orgasm? And if I can, I’m a good man. And if I can’t, I’m a bad man. And like, that is what sex is to them. It is just like a test where they’re naked. And they have to, like, do something, 

Christina Dixon: right?

How long is their ejaculation or like, you know, the heart on or whatnot? Like, yeah, how many orgasms were they able to give someone? It’s just, um, it’s so much pressure and I can imagine. Um, having trouble being in the body and in the moment when you’re trying to make sure that [00:39:00] you’re ticking off these expectations that either you have of yourself or you think your sexual partner has of you, or they may actually have those expectations.

Mark: Right, exactly. And it’s this idea of like being judged as a man, being emasculated, right? Like pleasing and pleasuring a woman is a big part of being a man very biologically. And like, Having that evaluation, right? Having that secret shame that I know a lot of men carry around not being able to do that or not being able to perform to whatever standard it is.

I’m feeling like truly like less of a man because they don’t have that. 

Christina Dixon: Right. 

Mark: You know. 

Christina Dixon: And then. That you’re saying it’s, it’s a year or more in therapy that you’re able to have your clients talk about that. 

Mark: Start to talk about it. Right. Yeah. Can 

Christina Dixon: you imagine then having them talk to me about it and saying to a female therapist, um, I’m having these ideas or these, um, you know, worries within myself or these troubles in the bedroom and, um, maybe feeling inadequate.

Mark: Yeah, I can’t. That’s why I’m asking the question. Like, I [00:40:00] can’t imagine that gulf. Like, I think you need a guy who is already very like psychologically minded and has maybe done it there before, or is specifically going to somebody for sexual issues. Like, I just, to me, that gap seems almost incrossible.

I’m being honest, you know? 

Christina Dixon: Yeah, it’s not something that I have many men, I can’t think of any man actually in my practice that has been able to be vulnerable and direct like that. There’s ways that we can allude to or, uh, briefly hit on, uh, my sex life isn’t what I want it to be kind of statements, but I’m not going into the details now.

Mark: Yeah, and I think that’s, you know, again, I called dudes listening. It’s like, talk to therapists about this stuff. Talk to other guys about this. Like, I think with all the female sexual empowerment stuff that’s happened, which is, I think, really incredible. I think men, we need to do our version of it because our shit has just been like locker room talk and like, like you said, bragging [00:41:00] and conquest and like, oh, check out her tips.

Right? Like, we can do better. Um, and I think we can actually look to women and the sexual empowerment movement, um, of the past, you know, 2030 years as a great example. Around that. 

Christina Dixon: Well, and when we talked earlier, too, about, um, the theoretical and I think that is a great way to bring it into the room to even just talk about I’m feeling uncomfortable.

Um, bringing this up, I’ve, I’ve had these thoughts or, or a desire to talk about this in therapy, but I feel so uncomfortable talking about my sex life here. And then that opens the door. Hopefully it’s the therapist opening the door, but if the client is able to say those things, it doesn’t mean you have to then disclose immediately in that session, um, what you’re, you’re navigating or what your questions are, but that you’ve let the therapist know, this is difficult for me.

This is something that. Um, I’m finding, um, really exposing or hard to talk about and you can take it [00:42:00] slow. 

Mark: That’s a great advice. Right. Talking about talking about it. 

Christina Dixon: Yes. I think that’s a great way to start is talk about, talk about it, talk about talking about it. Yeah. 

Mark: Right. Um, so you want to talk about the lack of male therapist, which I think is a real issue.

You know, in the break, I pulled up, um, a quote from not quote, I guess, a idea from Richard Reeves, the guy who wrote a book called a boys and men, which is a great book. Um, if you’re listening to check out, Very research backed of kind of the struggles that the modern male is going through, um, specifically looking at underprivileged, um, African American groups as well, which is great.

Not knowledge research downloads groups and he did it. So it’s good. Um, but he talks about getting men into heel professions. I don’t want to, uh, miss out the acronym, but he’ll stands for health education, administration, and literacy. And the idea is that that is a kind of counterpoint to getting women to step.

So the idea is like, we need to look at all the STEM growth that women have done and those programs and [00:43:00] really just kind of like hoard it over to get men into the more traditionally feminine, uh, roles, right, right. 

Christina Dixon: Nursing, physical therapy, um, teaching, uh, those kinds of, um, professions. Absolutely. Yeah. 

Mark: So what do you think, like, what do you think would attract a man to therapy?

I don’t know. Like, like how do, like, how do we work on this issue? 

Christina Dixon: Well, I, I think what you’re talking about is, um, male clients go to therapy often in pain. And so I think if we can help younger men get access to therapy in a really, um, supportive way, not a shaming way of you’re a teenager, you’re trouble in the family, and we need to fix you, but in a way of normalizing.

And I think a lot of younger parents are doing this now, as they’re talking to both genders or all genders about what are your feelings, um, you know, it’s okay to have this feeling, whatever that it’s okay for a girl to be angry. It’s okay for a boy to be sad. Um, but if we can [00:44:00] help, um, support younger boys.

In knowing about therapy and being able to have access to helpful therapy, then I think that that’s often what leads many women, I think, into being therapists is, oh, I had a positive experience, or I’ve, you know, been the person in my family or my friend group that everybody comes and talks to. Um, so let’s just translate this into a profession, um, if we can support men in doing that.

I think that that will help create more male therapists and help create access to more diversity in, um, who your therapist is instead of a white woman, which ironically, you know, psychology wasn’t founded by white women. Um, but it has turned into a female dominated, uh, profession at this point. 

Mark: Yeah. I mean, that’s, I mean, that’s what got me into therapy, right.

I had a really good experience with a therapist in college that in many ways saved my life. And I was like, yeah, I can, I can do this. And I see the value in this. 

Christina Dixon: Yeah. So I think it’s a lot about [00:45:00] access having, uh, whether it’s a mentor or whether it’s a personal experience in therapy, um, knowing that it, it works, but also that you see yourself reflected.

You see yourself with a therapist, a male therapist, or, um, you’ve had access to someone who has helped you learn about these parts and has been vulnerable themselves. I’m sure your therapists have been able to help you. Identify their emotions, talk about their experiences and help model that for you so that you can learn the terrain and the language.

Mark: Yeah, absolutely. Right. I mean, just like, oh, yeah, like, this is an option for a male, right? Like, we, we can also do that. Um, I think also about, you know, there’s between men and women and, you know, we’re doing the binary, but of course there’s all genders here, but stereotypically men and women, this idea that men are not conditioned to like, sit and talk like sitting and talking to somebody and making eye contact for 50 minutes is like freaking weird.

Like we just like, don’t do it. So I always [00:46:00] encourage therapists, men and women to like take males out of the therapy room, like go on a walk. Right. Or I do wilderness retreats as part of my business. Right. Like doing stuff like that, or, um, shooting hoops with a teenager and talking to them about their life.

Right. Like situations where a male client might feel a lot more comfortable rather than just like being in what is, I think, a feminine space of just. Talking, right? 

Christina Dixon: And as you’re saying, I think that, um, is informative for people who are looking at therapy in the way of it. Would I feel comfortable in a therapy room in a space that is going to be the same?

Or do I want to look for a wilderness retreat? Or do I want to maybe look for a group experience where there may be only males in the group? Or maybe it’s a mixed gender group and we have an opportunity to meet that way. But there are so many different kinds of therapy. And I think it goes back to being informed that if you meet with one therapist and that therapist isn’t a good fit, um, that there are many others.

And if you meet with, for instance, a [00:47:00] female therapist and, um, you don’t feel comfortable, it doesn’t mean that every female therapist is going to be that same way. But it’s, it’s hard. It’s vulnerable when we’re, we’re in pain and we’re needing relief. It’s hard to then meet with, you know, three people to find that right fit.

Mark: Yeah, and this might be an unanswerable question with RT anyway, like What do you think males should look for in a therapist if they’re going and doing these interviews? I know it’s going to be very personalized to every client, but 

Christina Dixon: I wonder if 

Mark: you have any ideas around some things they might questions they might ask or something like that.

Christina Dixon: I think your initial question of, um, do I kind of want to be sitting still or do I want to be active? I think that’s a great starting. If, if you’re someone who needs an activity to be able to feel more, um, In touch with what’s going on, then maybe you need those wilderness retreats, or you need to find a way to, um, maybe even just start connecting with someone over the basketball court or [00:48:00] something.

Um, I’m sure that there are a variety of different kinds of, um, therapy settings that like equine therapy with horses or, you know, all these different kinds of ways that we can be out of the four room, four walls in the room. Um, I think that’s one, but getting a sense of, um, I think most of us try to find a therapist that Represents us in some way.

Mm-Hmm. that on their bio. It’s like, I, I see something that relates to me. And so if you can find a commonality, I think, in the therapist, um, that you’re, you’re working with, that helps, um, find a, a way to, to relate and connect. It may not be the full mark, but it’s somewhere, I think to start. I 

Mark: think that’s great.

Yeah, I think just to kind of pay back what you’re saying. I encourage all clients and especially like, be really picky by your therapist. Like, it’s a really important role. And it’s literally your brain, right? And like, your personality and your emotions and, you know, interview at least 3 [00:49:00] people. No matter what, right?

Like, take time, understand it, like, really be picky, um, and ask questions. Like, if there’s any question that you are hesitant of asking, ask it anyway, right? Like, Hey, can I talk about sexuality here? Hey, have you worked with a man that has my issue before? Hey, like, you know, are you married? Have you been divorced?

Does that impact? Do you have kids, right? I mean, all those questions, like, as therapists, we should answer those, right. To help people make educated decisions. Um, 

Christina Dixon: my only, um, sort of caveat or warning is I have seen people that are very specific. I want someone who’s divorced, has three kids, uh, is in their fifties, you know, as my therapist.

And so the more specific we get, I think the more difficult it’s going to be to find somebody. Um, so if there are some things, um, whether it’s a, um, are you in a relationship, but if you’re not, are you. Familiar with or can you talk about these things? I don’t have kids, but I’ve been able to work with people who have kids because I can relate to certain things that they’re [00:50:00] going through.

And I’m informed in those ways. The other thing I want to add is, um, I think it takes it. So if you’ve interviewed or talked to 3 people and you’re meeting with them, I think it takes about 3 sessions often to find out if that person is really the fit or not. So I think it can be easy to jump and hop.

It’s a way to avoid maybe going deep with someone is I met with this therapist once they weren’t good. So I went to another therapist once they weren’t good. Um, but if you can give someone two or three sessions and I think by then you generally know, are we able to connect, do we have something to work on here?

Or, you know, maybe I should stop before the relationship gets too deep and see if I can find another therapist. That’s a good fit. 

Mark: Yeah, those are all really great, great suggestions. Um, so this conversation can go on forever, but we do have to wrap it up here. Uh, Christina, thanks for coming on the show.

Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you, if they want to work with you? 

Christina Dixon: Sure. Uh, my office is based in Los Angeles, but I am, um, licensed in California and Texas, so I can work with [00:51:00] clients in those areas. But if you just want more information or some resources, I’m on the internet at, um, cdixon counseling.

com. 

Mark: Great. Yeah. Check her out. She’s phenomenal. Um, we’re still up with first responders and, and she can handle it, right? You can handle the intensity that we were talking about. So thank you all for tuning in, um, to the master therapy podcast. If you enjoyed it. Give us five stars on Apple iTunes, share it with somebody to share with a guy that maybe is thinking about getting to therapy or maybe wants to get into therapy, but it’s hesitant.

It’s really good information. We’re trying to make it free and available for you all to share as much as possible. So thanks again for tuning in and we’ll see you next week on another episode of men’s therapy podcast.

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