What is grit? And, how does one develop it? Many men are embarrassed by our lack of grit, determination, and discipline. We think it comes naturally and that we either have it or we don’t. Our guest, David Ask, turns all of that on it’s head and teaches guys how to build grit in their lives – it’s a skill that you can learn just like any other. Tune in and learn just how to build more grit in your life.
Speaker: [00:00:00] Mark Azoulay is an industry leader in psychotherapy and men’s mental health. He’s helped countless guys get back on their feet, deepen their relationships, and excel in their lives. Now he’s taken all that he has learned and is sharing it with you. In each episode, Mark will interview an expert in the field of masculinity and men’s work.
We’ll cover topics such as emotional intelligence, masculine identity. Anger management, financial health, trauma recovery, marriage and divorce, ethics, and spirituality tune in and become a better man.
Mark Azoulay: Welcome to the show. I’m your host, Mark Adselay, and I’m here with David Ask. He’s an author and a coach that’s talked about grit, which is a much debated topic.
I’m really excited to, um, learn about your story and learn about how guys can cultivate grit in their lives.
David Ask: Man, Mark, thanks for having me. Yeah. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a really great topic and [00:01:00] something that I’m pretty passionate about lately.
Mark Azoulay: Yeah. It’s something that like, I think a lot of guys think that you’re born with, but I like that your propositions that you can learn, right.
You can build this, you can, you can practice how to be more gritty.
David Ask: Yeah, you know, what’s interesting, you know, a lot of people liken, you know, grit to a muscle, right? You know, you’re, you’re kind of building that internal fortitude and so on. And what we have found, so I work really closely with Dr. Andy Garrett, and we, you know, walk people through a curriculum and so on to help them, you know, build internal grit and so on.
But, um, Quite often, we misunderstand, you know, kind of our motivations and something that we really try to do is, um, and I kind of like, like to say it this way after we walk people through the coursework. I like to say, let me introduce you to yourself. And the reason I kind of want to start with that is that grit is, if it’s really understood is something that is an intrinsic, you know, motivator, as opposed to you know, You know, uh, sometimes we, you know, we’re going to do something that’s [00:02:00] difficult over a long period of time, you know, like the definition of grit, right?
Do something over a long period of time because what’s on the other side of that hill, as it were, is worth fighting for, but sometimes we do that because of an extrinsic motivator, as opposed to an intrinsic, you know, sense of mission.
Mark Azoulay: Yeah, and that right there is, I think, the difference between a boy and a man, right, like, I think psychology is chasing those extrinsic motivators and, like, the hit of sugar or the, you know, the woman or the drug or whatever.
Right. And I think a man is, it’s all internal, right? It’s based on your values and those long term gains and the delayed gratification.
David Ask: Isn’t that neat? I, I like you kind of, you know, led with that, you know, the definition, you know, like the, even the Hebrew word for man is it’s one who speaks order into chaos, you know, which is really a different way of, you know, looking at, at life, uh, you know, on a maturity level, because quite often, right, [00:03:00] we’re just kind of reacting to life and, you know, not necessarily, you know, Um, approaching life with a, uh, a sense of priorities, like values, convictions, and things like this is right, this is wrong, this is chaos, this is order, this is beautiful, this is not, you know, things like that.
And if I’m in the room, As a man, right? Not that it sounds kind of funny to say it this way, but if I’m in the room, I own the room. It’s my room. And, and when I, when I say that, I mean, it’s like, if something is out of order, if something is disordered, you know what? I’m just the man to step into that space and, and turn, um, you know, chaos and order.
Yeah. And
Mark Azoulay: I think it like. It is a good reframe of the fix it mentality, right? So I think a lot of guys, we get flack for being fixers or whatever, right? And especially in the modern world. But I think that is what we do. I think we fix problems. I think we conquer challenges and I think we protect the people that we love, you know, these are like tried and true [00:04:00] values that I believe a lot of men are lacking these days and don’t have healthy outlets for.
So I’m happy that you’re out there helping guys like develop that and embrace those things about themselves.
David Ask: Yeah, you know, it’s, what’s neat too is when you understand, you know, like the difference between grit and resilience, and you do it from, you know, that internal space, really, it’s an identity, you know, based, you know, position.
Um, I forget who said it first. I think it was Seth Godin. He said, you know, people like us do things like this. So, so you really have a, uh, A clearly defined a sense of who you are and what, you know, how you’re approaching life and what really, what, you know, dent in the universe you want to have, as it were, right?
What impact?
Mark Azoulay: Yeah, yeah, I love that. So before we dive in, we can talk about that for hours. I do want to know more about you and your story and your journey around developing this because I would imagine like all people, right? You don’t start with it. You know, you have to build it over time. So, so what has your journey around [00:05:00] grid or masculinity or even your professional career been like?
David Ask: Yeah, I’ll just kind of give you a bit of an overview. So I grew up in a little town in Minnesota and moved to Nashville, Tennessee in 1994. I was a vocal major and, you know, music for me really, we grew up in a real musical family as my mom was a music teacher and so on. So, you know, I realized, you know, kind of my later years in high school, like.
I really can do this. And so what’s fascinating is, is, you know, in fact, this last weekend had two concerts. I, I so enjoy music at the same time. I think that I, I lacked self awareness around it. So largely, you know, kind of get, as I’m telling my story here, I’ll get a bit vulnerable. I approached life in my early.
You know, 20s around music with a bit of a lack of identity, you know, lack of internal, uh, fortitude, as it [00:06:00] were, where I felt like I had to generate an identity. I had to become somebody or at least not be a nobody to, to have something, you know, that the world, as it were, those around me would applaud and kind of validate the fact that I am somebody or that kind of thing.
And I, I didn’t realize I was necessarily doing that at the time, but I think. You know, even as I say that, I’m sure people can relate to that. But I, um, since then, you know, married 25 years, got two teenagers. I, uh, I, I started a business about 10 years ago, uh, based around a product invention, um, called the stat guard.
Plus it’s a, the world’s first thermostat guard, uh, with a combination lock. So we sell in. The Home Depot and Lowe’s and True Value and, you know, we’re just growing that business here. So, um, what, uh, what I’m kind of excited about is the fact that, you know, it’s given me a bit of margin to, you know, do some things, work on some things and, and, uh, that I’m, you know, a bit more passionate about on a, on a personal level.
And of course, that’s kind of why I’m here today [00:07:00] too. So.
Mark Azoulay: Yeah. Yeah. What was your journey with, with grit? Because I imagine like being a musician, it’s, it’s about practice and about grind, you know, and when I think of like. Childhood musicians, especially, right? Like, and you probably know this more than I do.
Cause your, your mom’s a teacher as well. It’s like, they often excel it really quickly and they’re excited, but then they hit a plateau and most of them drop off right after about like, you know, two, three, maybe four years of practice, they drop off and many people don’t continue being magicians because the gains are like not as quick, you know?
And I imagine that that’s when the grit has to come in, right?
David Ask: Well, it’s, it’s a fascinating concept that you started kind of on a positive level, meaning, you know, grit is required to build a life. If you want to build a, you know, a, a powerful and beautiful and a good life, you’re going to have to be able to do hard things.
And, and so what’s fascinating is, is, you know, you, Talk about a musician and so on, you know, of course, if you, if you want to enter that next level, [00:08:00] not just, you know, kind of stay in a zone of competence, but if you’re, if you’re, if you, if your definition of success is, I want to make a living doing this, I want to give people goosebumps doing this, you know, I want to move a crowd and I want them to, you know, call me back, you know, when I’m done and be like, I got to hear more of that.
You’re going to have to, you know, spend a lot of time alone doing hard things when nobody is applauding and, you know, to get to that space. But what I think is fascinating is, is, you know, on even on the, I’ll just say it this way on the negative side of life, right? You know, what if, what if your relationships are suffering?
What if your marriage is suffering and, and you’re committed, you know, to get to the other side of the hill, because, you know, you know, what’s on the other side of the hill is something that’s empowering and, you know, just beautiful. I mean, you’re, you have to look at, um, you know, both of those, whether it’s an opportunity or an obstacle.
As, you know [00:09:00] what, if I’m going to have something, um, beautiful in this life, I’m going to have to do hard things. I’m going to have to lift heavy things. So I think it’s, you know, grit is all about building the life that you want.
Mark Azoulay: Yeah, I’m wondering for you, like, was there a moment when shit got real? Like, when you realized, like, oh man, like, I do have to do hard things, you know, it’s not, I can’t just, like, coast on natural talent anymore.
David Ask: You know, I mean, in a lot of ways, I feel like it’s almost every day, you know, we’re You know, we, we, whether it’s, you know, battling, getting to the gym or, you know, whatever it is, I, I do remember though, when, uh, when Lisa and I were married about five years, you know, kind of the first moment where, you know, life seemed to really, you know, the rubber kind of hit the road was, you know, I’m working for a large telecom company.
And. You know, we get pregnant and we’re our first born is on the way. And Lisa was like, you know, I don’t really want to work if I don’t have to. And at the [00:10:00] time, you know, I’m like, man, I’m if, if it’s just one salary here living in Nashville, it’s, you know, we’re going to be, we’re going to be lean. And I think that was really the time when I, you know, you know, fear can be a really good motivator.
And so I started to dig a bit deeper and start to swing for the fence on some things that Um, I might not have, because I was a bit comfortable, so sometimes, you know, discomfort, you know, causes us to, you know, get out the shovel and start digging, and I think that was a, a real, kind of a pivotal, uh, You know, time in my life when I started my, uh, my, you know, stat guard plus business, I would say, you know, we’ve been through some personal things with family cancer and different things like that have been, have been really hard, but I would say that, you know, on a professional level.
Okay. How about this? Right? I’m working at a large telecom company. And my brother in law calls me one day and, you know, technically [00:11:00] the idea was his, he goes, David, where do I get a thermostat guard with a combination lock? He goes, nobody can keep up with these little keys because everybody else had a stat guard with a key.
And, you know, of course I’m like, well, that’s a great idea. So anyway, he and I ended up starting that business together, but here we are, you know, a couple of guys that know absolutely nothing about running a business. About plastics, injection, molding, patents, trademarks, supply chain management, cashflow, I mean, sales, we didn’t know any of it.
So I really felt like, you know, out of the gate, we started doing everything wrong, meaning if you build it, they will come, right? Well, of course not. So we, we, we got through the whole prototyping process, found a company to make these things. We ordered 10, 000 of them and then we didn’t know what to do.
Mark Azoulay: They sat in the garage for a while.
David Ask: Oh, four years. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was one of those things where, you know, we thought. You know, [00:12:00] okay, now what? And, you know, we just had to kind of start pushing through. I ended up actually buying him out. He started a construction company and about a year after that, um, I think it was really out of, I’m not even sure the word was desperation, but I was like, you know what, I got to the point where I had kind of had nothing to lose, which kind of helped.
And then I just went into high gear and ended up landing the Home Depot. And a few years later, landing Lowe’s and, you know, this. Two months ago, we got into the, the true value, you know, distribution chain and so on, but it’s been a slow growth. Um, and at the same time, you know, grit sometimes is generated, you know, and you, you’ve got to kind of start figuring, figuring out this, this idea of what would somebody like me do in a situation like this.
And sometimes a bit of pain is, is helpful. So I, that’s kind of the process that I went through, you know, 10 years ago.
Mark Azoulay: I really liked that you [00:13:00] bring that up. You know, I think you mentioned in that story, I think the two biggest initiatory rituals that guys go through in the modern era, right? One is fatherhood, right?
Two is entrepreneurship. And it sounds like those were some of your two big moments, right? That’s like our version of, you know, you’re naked in the woods with a stick trying to survive,
Speaker 4: you know?
Mark Azoulay: And I like that you brought up the pain because I think that’s so critical. And when I think about my generation, the millennial generation, it was so much told of like, you have to love your work.
Everything is about passion. If you’re not talented, you should just something else, right? Like we didn’t really get the messages about grit or about pain being valuable, right? Everything was really just supposed to be easy and fun and have a positive impact on the world. And I see many of my peers really struggling with that because we didn’t, Learn how to dig in our heels in the way that I think the older generations did and continue to do, you know,
David Ask: it’s interesting use the word passion.
I mean, that word actually comes from the word suffer. And so it’s, by the [00:14:00] way, remember that what Seinfeld, the soup Nazi, you know, he suffers for a soup. I think it’s really funny at the same time. You know, it’s this idea of what am I passionate about? What am I willing to suffer for? And I realized back in the day, there’s a, there’s quite a few things, but you know, in my business, you know what?
I totally believe in this thing and I’m willing to suffer for it. So day after day, you just lean in, you make the calls, you make the connections, you, you know, keep knocking those things down.
Mark Azoulay: Yeah, you just do the hard thing, which I think is a hard
David Ask: thing,
Mark Azoulay: right? Um, and overcome that resistance, you know, I’m curious for you and I’ve experienced this with a lot of my things, right?
The gym is a big one. That’s pertinent now, right? There’s like that wall of resistance, that wall of like, no, or fear or shame or whatever it is. I’m curious, like, yeah. One, I mean, I assume you, you, you feel that, but I’m also, if you have any strategies for overcoming that, like, how do you, how does someone push through that, like, negative emotional fog that comes out of nowhere, you know?
David Ask: Yeah, so, [00:15:00] and I would just, I mean, for instance, the word grit requires the word fear, right? Yeah. You can’t have one without the other. So, so if you, if you appear, if you have someone in your sphere of influence, whatever that is gritty, they’ve looked fear in the face and they’ve pushed through it. But again, I think the larger topic here is this identity based statement of what would somebody like me do in a situation like this?
Am I pushing through something that’s difficult because I want someone else to tell me that I’m great? That’s pretty fleeting. That’s going to, that’s not going to last very long. Or am I pushing through something that’s difficult? Because I believe in it, and I think it’s worth fighting for, and even dying for.
Mark Azoulay: Yeah, they’re a real reason.
David Ask: Yeah, much different headspace, right? Much different headspace. That internal, um, you know, set point, that internal temperature is so much more empowering than handing the keys, you know, to someone else, as it were.
Mark Azoulay: Yeah, and like you said in the beginning of this episode, right, like, [00:16:00] going from a reactive life to a proactive life.
You know, feeling like you’re in the driver’s seat of your life rather than just, you know, bobbing and weaving with the stressors that come your way.
David Ask: Well, and of course, when you, when you don’t have that approach, right? When you have that big question mark, you know, inside of you get ready for increased anxiety and apathy and all that kind of stuff.
You’re going to feel it. But guess what? Everybody else around you, you know, is going to feel the same thing. They’re going to feel that question mark. They’re going to feel like you’re kind of, you know, pulling something from them or, you know, it’s just always looking for something or you’re kind of needy, that kind of thing.
Not that we’re not human. I’m not creating a, You know, a utopia here, but, you know, having that internal, um, constitution and temperature and set point and convictions and having real radical clarity on those things is, it’s the only way to fly. You know, it’s the only way to, to push through and to really kind of rise above some of that stuff.
Mark Azoulay: Absolutely. I think it just makes you trustworthy, right? Like, like and dependable because at least you’re internally consistent. You know, I think when, when [00:17:00] in times of life where I haven’t had that or people I know that don’t have that, it’s hard to trust them because you don’t know who they are or really where they’re coming from.
Right. There’s like that chameleon, people pleasing thing
Speaker 4: that,
Mark Azoulay: you know, as you get a little bit older, especially if you’ve done it like me, I’m recovering nice guy. You can see right through that. It’s like, Oh, they’re like, There isn’t something here. Um,
David Ask: yeah, that’s exhausting too. Yeah.
Mark Azoulay: Super exhausting. Um, we’re gonna move to our commercial break.
When we come back, we’re going to talk more about how to build grit in your life, about some techniques and strategies that you can use to overcome the resistance to it. And yeah, some of the outcomes and some of the reasons that are worth fighting and dying for, just like David’s saying. So hang on in there and we’ll see you on the other side of the commercial break.
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Mark Azoulay: Welcome back to the show. I’m your host Mark Azulet.
I’m here with David Ask. And we’re talking about grit. Uh, David, during the break, we were talking about the link between grit and authenticity. And I want to really dive into that because I think, you know, I feel it’s all about modern masculinity and authenticity is like the word. In that compared to the more toxic masculinity, which I think is about like suppression and fronting and being tough.
Right. And like putting a face forward where it’s not authentic at all. So I like that. I’m curious about how you reframe grit. With authenticity, because you would think that’d be kind of more of an old world type of thing, right? Of like, just put it in the box and move forward. Right. But I think we both know that doesn’t work anymore.
David Ask: Yeah. Yeah. I’ll, you know, I’ll jump into the deep end of the pool here. So you know, where do we get the word, you know, authentic or authenticity? It comes from the word author. And, and so here’s the fascinating thing is, is, you know, we, I think for us to [00:21:00] have a basis of making decisions, you know, that feel really natural to us.
We first have to kind of, you know, enter into these waters in a really humble place, meaning I need to admit I didn’t make me. Right. I didn’t choose my eye color. I didn’t choose my taste buds. And here’s what’s really fascinating is, is I didn’t choose my personality. I didn’t choose anything. And how do we know that that is a law like gravity?
Those of us who have children, you know, when, when kids come out of the gate, they’re very hardwired, my, you know, my, I’ve got two teenagers and when Parker. You know, it was even weeks and months old. I mean, you really sensed, you know, their essence and when Kate, you know, came out of the gate, I mean, really within weeks and months, you know, you could tell right away.
They were so different. And what’s fascinating as, you know, as children grow. You know, really up until they’re probably, I don’t know, five, six and seven, you know, they’re not thinking about being authentic, [00:22:00] right? They’re just doing their deal. They’re just being themselves until the world kind of slaps them around a little bit, right?
You get picked on or, you know, something happens that’s, that causes you to start questioning. Do I have what it takes? You know, who am I? And we, as adults, of course, are masters at At denying and just like throwing everything out the window that seems natural to us because two things were, we’re told that we’re not good enough, right?
Everything that we’re marketed to is if you don’t have this or you don’t, you’re not like this or whatever it is, you’re not good enough and on a very basic level, we’re afraid that if we bring, you know, the, the, the most, not just the true places, but the most true places in us to bear, uh, What if somebody rejects that, right?
That’s a, that’s kind of a scary thought. And I, so I think that to, uh, to understand, you know, authorship, right. That, uh, so I [00:23:00] believe, right, as a, I’m a Christian. So I believe that you are made of awesome. I believe that, that everybody who’s breathing air, who’s human is made just of, of, of eternity. And I, I think that, um, you know, like me as a dad, right.
I love to look at my kids and just say, you know, God made you just wonderfully made fearfully and wonderfully made and I want to get the shovel out and start digging into who you are uniquely and I don’t care. I mean, what does that mean? Well, what are your convictions, right? What do you believe is right and wrong?
What do you believe about, um, um, you know, kind of values and things? And again, when, when kids are younger, that’s a hard thing to establish. But as, as you, you know, your teenage years and you start to self actualize, you can really dial into who someone is because there’s a hierarchy. Of these things. So what are your convictions, right?
What are your values? What’s [00:24:00] the virtuous impact that you want to have on those around you? What is it? I like to say, I think I got this from a Nissan commercial. What is it that gives your goosebumps goosebumps? You know what I mean? What is it that puts that lump in your throat in a good way? What is it that makes the hair in the back of your neck stand up?
What are you willing to die for? What are you willing to fight for? What breaks your heart? And when you start, um, you know, harnessing all of that stuff and you start about this, Identifying, right? The word identity. Authorship. That’s your identity. You don’t have to fabricate something or be someone else.
You’re exactly who you, who you are. And it’s fantastic. You’re made of awesome. My favorite quote, Mark, by the way, is Benjamin Disraeli. He’s a former PM of England back in the day. He said, Um, the greatest good you can do for another is not to share with him your riches, but to reveal to him his own. And I think, man, as a dad, as a husband, as a friend, I [00:25:00] don’t want my kids to be like me.
I would hope that they would, you know, model, you know, some of my, my virtuous, you know, aspects and so on. And of course, avoid some of my stupidity. But at the same time, I think the way to really love someone is to see, you know, the greatest good in them, the beauty, the riches, the strengths, the virtues, the convictions, the effort, all that stuff, and to say something, to validate it, not just when you cross the finish line and you’re first, right?
Like something, for instance, like, You know, Hey, Parker, I saw you interact with your friends the other day and you spoke out of your heart. You said something that was really powerful and impactful. I want you to know, I felt that like that was good. And I sure hope you do more of that. And I think to, to, uh, to validate or for lack of a better word compliment, you know, someone’s character is probably the best thing you could possibly do to help someone galvanize in their identity [00:26:00] and authenticity.
Mark Azoulay: Yeah, figure out how to talk about it, right? And figure out how to put it into words. And I like that you bring in, you know, the spiritual dimension and this identity piece, because what I see, and you know, I’m practicing Buddhism, I see like, this is a listening process.
Speaker 4: Right.
Mark Azoulay: Versus what I think it has felt like in the past, which is like you said, like a crafting process or a creation process, and you have to work to accentuate stuff.
But it’s so much of a listening process, right? Similar to relationship with God or relationship with spirit. It’s this idea of like, it’s all there, right? We just have to just get quiet enough to be able to access it. Isn’t that great? Yeah, I mean, it’s identifying.
David Ask: Yeah, sorry. It’s, it’s, it’s identifying what’s there.
It really is. It’s relaxing into that person as opposed to white knuckling it and feeling like I just have to start generating something.
Mark Azoulay: Yeah, totally. Right. Or like, yeah, trying to become a fake version or what you think success looks like or what masculinity looks like or whatever. Um, so how does that pivot into grit?
Right? How does that, how [00:27:00] does that start to cultivate grit in a person?
David Ask: Yeah. So I think it’s again, when you, when you’ve identified those things right on, on a, on a real basic level. Well, how about this? Let me back into it this way. When you haven’t identified, you know, who you are, right? Um, you’re going to have experienced anxiety, imposter syndrome, you know, apathy, avoidance.
I mean, you’re, you’re just going to have that, you’re going to feel stuck, which good luck with grit at that point, right? You’re, it’s that question mark that just is just, you know, debilitating. But when you’ve identified, you know, convictions, values, virtues, strengths, goosebumps, all that kind of thing.
Well, then you in and of yourself, you start to feel more genuine, right? Natural, normal, resilient, free. You know, you have clarity on those things. And really that’s the basis of grit. It’s, it’s, um, Simon Sinek, you know, he wrote the book, start with why great, great book. And I mean, he’s a great thought leader.
You know, I would [00:28:00] say never start with why, and I’m not taking a dig at Simon, start with who, you know, it’s because then your why makes sense. What if, what if you haven’t identified those things that are just absolutely fantastic about you, those, you know, those things that rise to the top, your why might be your dad’s.
You know, your, your why might be your older brothers. It might be somebody that you, um, that you admire. It might be Joe Rogan’s. I don’t know. I mean, who are you listening to, you know, and taking cues from because you don’t really have a sense of yourself. And I, so I think that, that. Ultimately, grit and resilience, and they’re different, are established on, you know, identity and who you are.
Mark Azoulay: Yeah, I think that’s really well said, and I think, you know, a lot of guys out there are in that place where you talked about it. I know I’ve been, right, where it’s like, you don’t know who you are. You’re just parroting opinions from other people. You know, um, you’ve gotten old where, like, you’re [00:29:00] bad at stuff, but you’re afraid of, like, trying it because you know that you’re not going to be good at it.
And I think a lot of guys out there are stuck. You know, I have my reasons for that. But I’m curious for you, like, how does someone in that place start to move forward? Because I think when you’re stuck in that place, the years, you know, decades can go by and it just kind of gets worse. There’s like an inertia quality.
Oh, you
David Ask: nailed it. It’s, it’s, yeah, there’s, yeah, there’s definitely this, the speed of forward is probably not even as fast as the speed of decline, right? If you start to feel that stuck and we can fall apart in a real hurry, it’s like losing weight. It’s, it’s, it’s really easy to gain it and it’s hard to lose it.
And I, um, you know, I, so a couple of things are rising to the top here as you’re talking about that. I think that identity, um, is not, um, wholly established by answering great questions. It’s not wholly established. By identifying, you know, authenticity, [00:30:00] authorship. The cool thing about it is, is we are, we are wired, you know, for relationships.
In fact, I would say it this way, this is a big truth claim, but I think that the entire point of life You know, it’s our, it’s, it’s relationships, period. The rest of it is kind of a context that we get to experience one another in, but the whole point of life is relationships. So here’s, what’s fascinating, you know, when we think about parenting and I guess I’m not sure if you have children or not, but I.
You know, we, we often
Mark Azoulay: say,
David Ask: okay, yeah, you know, we, we use this phrase, I raised, you know, say three children. I’ve got two and I raised two children. But what does that really mean? You know, the word raised is, you know, tied to the word rise. I’m, I’m causing my children to rise. What does that mean? It’s way different than being provided for.
And, and there’s a, I think there’s a lot of people that, you know, they’re, you know, Um, the definition of success as it were growing up was, [00:31:00] you know, be nice, don’t hit your brother, right? Don’t be a jerk, you know, be helpful and get good grades and be nice. And don’t be a jerk. You know, it’s just this generic sense of, you know, of kind of operating in life.
And. What I think is fascinating is, is that, you know, when you, when you see the uniqueness in someone, right, we’ve got a retina, we’ve got a fingerprint, and our souls have a, a print. And when you start looking at all the little, you know, picadillos in that print, and you start calling those things out, and you look at your child or your friend, by the way, because we, we, we need to be doing this with everybody.
And you say, again, what I see is this, you see it, you say something, you validate it, shine a spotlight on it, you give somebody a high five, you smile, you overtly say something that might be really intimate, you know, and kind of vulnerable, like, you know, hey, man, um, this is good. And I know that, you know, it’s a little bit weird to say to another man, even, but I want you to know that when, you know, when [00:32:00] you said that I got goosebumps and it was great.
And so I think that, yes, we have to answer the right questions. So there, there’s a, there’s a plumb line in each of us that when we want to establish those, you know, that plumb line with the English language, right? I’m, I’m living in America. You might, if you’re in, in Pakistan, you might have a different language, right?
But you need to identify in your language, very practically, what is it? That’s that your inner constitution.
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Mark Azoulay: Welcome back to the show.
Unfortunately, our guest had yet David on later in the [00:35:00] year. So stay tuned for that. But it was really good conversation around grit and resilience and authenticity. Um, thank you so much for tuning in and we will see you next week. And the episode of the men’s therapy podcast.
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