Relational Leadership w/ Donald Bialkowski

Relational Leadership w/ Donald Bialkowski

April 3, 2024

The authoritarian style of leadership is on it’s way out. People just expect more. They want someone that inspires them, motivates them, and cares about their success and wellbeing. In this episode, our guest Donald Bialkowski, will share how to become a relational leader – someone who leads by influence and compassion.

Episode Transcript:

welcome to the show I’m your host Mark azoulay and I’m here with Donald Bowski and we’re talking about relational

1:20

leadership Donald I’m really happy to have you on the show because your work as a coach and a mentor for men and

1:25

couples and leaders is just it’s just beating toxic masculinity right this entire idea and topic of the show

1:32

relational leadership is like the evolution away from authoritarian Styles into I think a much more evolved and

1:38

more effective way of doing it yeah thanks Mark I yeah there’s a lot of nuance to the work for sure and it’s

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uh yeah we’ll get into it I guess um but I’m happy to be here I’m really excited about the work that you’re doing I’m

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excited to talk about uh this kind of work as I just find it so interesting and fascinating and rewarding yeah happy

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men need mental health support I mean we we’re in a we’re in a rough place and I think like after Co is now it’s more

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normal and the stigma is starting to fade where guys are realizing like hey I can actually use some help in this

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category um in this world yeah that’s one of the the gifts of the pandemic I think is really elating like oh mental

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health supp part like good health so great let’s have that conversation so yeah thrilled about that for sure yeah

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so let’s start with the focus on you Donald so how do you get into the work tell us a little bit about you yeah well

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um let’s see I mean I’ve been a I’m a clinical social worker that’s my background I’ve been in different mental

2:36

health and well-being spaces for 20 years I I’ve taught mindfulness meditation for a number of years I did

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Psychotherapy the bulk of my career was at the VA Hospital uh here Madison Wisconsin where I’m located I’ve been in

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Correctional settings uh and and so kind of interestingly you know in hindsight now that I look back you know veterans

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tend to be these numbers are changing but you know on the whole tend to be men and that’s the largest gender of

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veterans and Corrections is the same way as well so in a way I just kind of backed into working with men that’s

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largely been my uh kind of client population um but just identifying as a

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as a man myself with the pandemic as we mentioned the pandemic um you know my

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life had kind of shifted in a way that really I mean not to sound like really

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dramatic about it but it just really crumbled um 40 and all the currents of

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life kind of caught up to me and I was using substance uses in a very sophisticated way and other ways to

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distract myself from my life and the pandemic sort of pushed that and and things kind of fell apart for me and so

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uh that was my own personal gift really uh because it opened some things up for

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stuff I had been running from for a long time and U gave me the opportunity to really turn towards it so that’s really

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why where my passion for working with men is is just having gone through that recovery process a healing process and

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um you know having you know 20 years of of this kind of skills and perspectives

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and this is what I do so just really applying what I do and my heart and that’s men’s mental health so yeah I’m

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curious like what are the things that what is one thing that you had to let fade from your previous life or or

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something that you saw in the mirror during this covid time CU I like you said you’re not alone in that I think a

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lot of men and a lot of people in general like got that mirror held up to them mhm yeah you know I mean maybe as a

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a segue into relational leadership I mean I I I think I just came into contact with the reality that I wasn’t

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being a very good leader and and I don’t think I’m alone there um you know as men

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and and again this is a sensitive Nuance topic so I just want to say this because I I made a comment on a social media

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platform the other day and I just got like rail that for using the wrong word word and you know it’s nuanced um and so

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I might say things that are really generalized or um um you know specific

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or doesn’t necessarily apply but I guess I just want to name that um you know that this is so but

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um um a lot of men I think get socialized

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in a way that’s kind of like this is what it means to be a man you get have you know I had professional success I

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had a family I had a house and I had you know I was professionally

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by that definition of being a provider I was like knocking it out of the park but emotionally and relationally I was

5:36

really falling apart and I didn’t really even see it because of you know the W you know the conditions of my relationship but also I think the larger

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culture sort of rewards that style that kind of way of thinking about what

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success means uh and and less about maybe what we’ll talk a little bit more about so that’s what I I came into

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contact with basically I wasn’t doing a very good job uh from my my own assessment and um and I needed to make

6:02

some changes yeah I mean I I think one of the gifts of like the modern era right is I think men are being asked to

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expand into more things right like you know after feminism which I think is a great movement obviously right like

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women were able to expand their roles into being providers and now as men we don’t we don’t get that by default

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anymore right so I think like the people in our lives specifically the women in our lives are demanding more you know

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they’re demanding more of what you’re talking about more of that relational peace more of that you know emotional peace more of that openness and

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vulnerability and caregiving and I think it’s given men you know the first chance in a while to really show up and and

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nurture you know but nurture in a masculine way you know not in a feminine way I’m curious what you think about

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that yeah I mean I might use the word necessity I think it’s a necessity that men sort of open up to uh the modern

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landscape you know like this older version of masculinity you know not all bad I’m not an anti you know I’m not

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anti-rad masculinity but but I’m also Pro um modernization we got to update

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the software here and you know the landscape of cultural landscape technological landscape like everything has really changed so quickly and yet we

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still kind of operate on these old ways of thinking about like what relationships are and what gender are

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and and basically it’s a it’s a it’s a misalignment you know like it’s no longer fit and I think we see this in

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like some of the statistics and I’m sure you’re familiar with this but you know like over 60% of of males 18 to 30 are

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single and you know and half of them aren’t even trying to be in a relationship and in my sens is in

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conversations is in talking with women especially they’re kind of like I don’t need you you know like I don’t need that

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extra burden unless you’re going to show up in my life participate and and be a

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leader be a contributor like it’s too much work for me you know like I don’t so I think I think for men to really

7:59

live fulfilling engaging lives it’s kind of a necessity we need to update the software how we think about things

8:04

exactly yeah and I think like it’s all this emotional realm and what I like to say to a lot of my clients right is like

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the frontier right the frontier for men is the Inner Space you know it is doing this inner work because we haven’t had

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to do it for a long time um and yeah like what you’re saying like there is a blend of like traditional masculine roles I think as men we get fulfilled by

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a lot of those but this idea of modern and this idea of consent I think is critical in relationships right of like

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you can do whatever you want as long as you talk about it right as long as it’s a consensual understanding then the

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roles can be really different in relationship now which I think for a lot of men Spooks us right because we’re

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like oh I thought we had a Playbook and we could just run the Playbook but now we have to actually take responsibility for ourselves and for our

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relationships yeah yeah and I see that in a lot of like my sort of midlife guys that I’m working with you know they’ve

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done everything by the book they’ve been successful and then they look around and they’re like what but I’m disconnected

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and I’m not I’m I’m without Direction and I’m like is this this it you know like there’s there’s sort of there’s

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something missing I just go back to the other thing I think is is important is the the and I loved your language around

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that but like this inner work right whether it’s psychological or emotional spiritual whatever that the sort of

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inner work you know I would say not only have we not had to do it for a long time

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we’ve never really done it and this is this is there’s a lot of research on this too like between 3 four five years

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of age men really get separated from their internal experience quit crying or I’ll give you something to cry about you

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know like in that that kind of quit feeling sorry for yourself even if you

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have caregivers that we allowing of emotions the larger culture doesn’t want men to be vulnerable period even if you

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you know I love beray Brown’s work and it’s right on but the reality is is men

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that are vulnerable pay consequences because of the masculine Waters that we

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swim in so for a lot of men that I work with it’s that it’s it’s building

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emotional Integrity building emotional vocabulary it’s kind of like beginning

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there because we weren’t taught emotional skills we weren’t taught relational skills and so but we’re

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trying to navigate really complex situations like relationship so I often say man in I would include myself in

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this category you know it’s like we’re like kindergarteners trying to do long division you know like the world is

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demanding of us an ability to respond and be responsive and to be good leaders but we

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don’t have like a full toolbox right like we we didn’t have all all the everything that we need so anyways maybe

10:36

I digress no no I think that’s a really good point come about it honestly yeah I think it’s a really good point and I think it’s worth also saying that like

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we don’t live in like a therapy perfect world where like the the ber brown fantasy right like oh if you’re just

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super vulnerable all the time everyone’s going to respect you and like follow you because they’re going to see how courageous it is right I think for most

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men it’s just what you said right you get bullied you get ostracized you get viewed as weak like that’s still very

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real you know I think the culture is Shifting and I’m happy for that but it’s not there so I I do think things like

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therapy and coaching are critical for guys because you can actually do it confidentially honestly right and like

11:13

work out and learn some of these skills in a safe environment so that you can then take it out into the world in maybe

11:19

a more evolved form you know MH and and and I think that like therapy

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or that sort of confidential neutral relation ship is huge for that because it gives you a space to sort of explore

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what that is what is vulnerability what does that mean what does it look like in my life so you can work through that and then go out into the world and be brave

11:39

and courageous and all those sort of ways and as you have that courageous you’re more willing to be vulnerable and

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that really shows up to as you said as it’s changing um same with men’s spaces

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I didn’t sit with men at all until four years ago and then I started sitting in

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in men’s groups men’s spaces and there’s a lot of them there and they’re really powerful because I think that’s where

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men can really reflect and see themselves in other men and then they can sort of go up go out into their

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lives and as dads and husbands and and partners and show up that way so

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absolutely yeah we talked about that in episode um two back for the listeners a lot about men’s groups right and the

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power of just like getting that kind of like oh yeah me too I also feel that you know getting held accountable by a

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council of men and yeah I’m so happy that that stuff is seems to be on an upswing I mean I provide it you provide

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it I think it’s really great that those are becoming a little bit more acceptable whereas it seems like for

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past Generations it wasn’t because again it was all this like shallow fragile toxic masculinity of like do not show

12:42

anybody anything because they could stab you right in the heart and like you said in some cases it

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can right but if you have like a known sort of container you know and and these spaces are are available it’s amazing to

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me every time I’m with a group of men how powerful that is you know like how

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just to shine a light on some things and all guys are always oh yeah me too like that’s my experience too but when you

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live in isolation and you’re the Lone Wolf like you you uh you don’t see that

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right it feels like you’re like all alone so that connection is powerful

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yeah so I want to dig into our topic because I think we’re talking about it right which is relational leadership so I’m curious uh for our listeners if you

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could Define what you mean by relational leadership and maybe contrast it to to a more traditional style of

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leadership yeah I think um relational I mean at its Essence

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relational leadership to me is really about creating conditions for others to shine you know to be to be at their best

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so um to think relationally is to think

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ecologically and so I think there’s also this sort of like shift and understanding that um as relational

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leaders we kind of take ownership for that system or that container we understand that we’re a part of that you

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know when I scream and yell it impacts another person right you know or if I

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Empower them and lift them up it’s relational empowerment you know um and so I think that’s it’s sort of a that’s

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a shift away from more kind of individualistic power over versus Power

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with ways of thinking about um leadership and I think that’s I mean

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that’s certainly what I was taught you know that more masculine

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authoritarian top down power over style leadership and and that’s not necessarily bad in fact like in war

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zones it saves lives you know like there’s certain context that is really useful form of relationship but in your

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families around the dinner table it starts to become problematic you’re not really elevating you know what’s in it

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not you know for we how can how can we um help people really be at their best

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um so that’s the big shift it’s kind of a power you know moving from power over to to power with it’s coming along kind

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of shoulder Tosh shoulder um in taking in relationship and then the other piece around

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masculinity I think masculinity again for meals and and strengths that allow you know one to

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care for and protect others and and so I think like the masculine energy and this

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doesn’t matter how you identify everyone sort of has a certain amount of masculine energy right yep um but it’s

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coming from that place to make sure that people are in conditions they’re safe

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they feel cared for they feel empowered for them to really kind of grow and Thrive yeah so it’s that real like

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protector Defender energy you know um one of the men’s writers Jack Donovan talks about how masculine energy creates

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the perimeter and feminine energy uh builds the village right so it’s like

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we’re all about like who’s in who’s out is it safe right are Predators out there can we defend our perimeter and then you

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need the feminine to actually make the village make the perimeter something worth protecting you know to like really

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make it grow and flourish and and I like what you said you know everybody has a combination of masculine and feminine

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it’s a it’s a spectrum in there um but I do think that protector Defender is more

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to the root of masculine versus I think what you’re talking about of like this like King Tyrant energy right which is

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like masculine I guess but also like almost a shadow version coming from fromont a place of

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insecurity mhm yep or grandiosity yeah yeah grandiosity insecurity or like

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wanting to dominate in control right because oftentimes leaders feel impostor syndrome so they just like lash out at

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somebody else yep yeah it’s very self-absorbed very individualistic sort of short-term

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reactive energy yeah yeah so so you know what I

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think about this is we’ll talk about this maybe more in our second segment but is how important mindfulness is to

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this you know and you mentioned that you are a mindfulness coach and practitioner as well and it sounds like and I’m curious your thoughts on this but it’s

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almost CR critical right you need to be mindful to be able to take that wider lens and to view more of what’s going on

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and not to be stuck in your own head what do you think about that idea yeah 100% I mean I think it’s it’s

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crucial um I kind of focus on like five main pillars in mindfulness is one of them and it it to me it’s the skill of

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of all skill s um everything is it’s awareness you know it’s present moment

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non-judgmental nonreactive awareness um and I think yeah to like

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use to use like a computer analogy you know like MS DOS was really great in the 19 you know like 90s it doesn’t work

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anymore for the complexity and for me I think about mindfulness as a platform for sort of updating you know it’s like

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as we get present to the present moment we can observe and describe non-judgmentally non- reactively what’s

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going on and that updates our map otherwise we are wired to behave based

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on what’s happened to us in the past which is great if you’re around a hot stove right and you and you don’t want

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that’s or making or crossing busy roads or something it’s not so great when you’re in a relationship and you’ve been

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betrayed right or you had a father that was really um emotionally unavailable to

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you right now you’re operating on those old patterns which are now getting in the way so mindfulness is a platform for

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learning it’s like oh when I’m in a relationship I I treat it like a hot stove I want to go away I want to

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withdraw I want to shut down and just through that awareness now we have Choice it’s like oh okay well that I can

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choose I can still shut down but I could also choose not to and I could just stay here and be in relationship and then of

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course you have a wonderful time and you connect and then now you’re updating your software it’s like not some people

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might be harmful but not everybody is right so yeah I think that’s really I think it’s

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crucial and and critical for leadership right because the idea is you need to be able to keep that that platform updating

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to go from this you know toxic you know authoritarian style to relational style so we got to move to a commercial break

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when we come back I want to hear more about those five pillars and listeners you can get a chance to really dive into becoming a relational leader yourself so

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hang on in there and we’ll see you on the other

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side

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[Music] welcome back to the show I’m your host Mark gazay and I’m here with Donald bokowski and we’re talking about

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relational leadership so Donald before we went off to a break you mentioned that you have five pillars that you help

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educate leaders on how to develop this style you mind going into those in more detail for us yeah sure happy to I yeah

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it’s an interesting it’s I think about the work that I do and my own work personal work is is really um a

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maturation or an evolution a development and so often I start with clients just

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around leadership like self- leadership like really getting aligned with yourself and so I I usually use Five

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Pillars and that the first one so the pillars are mission mindset mindfulness movement and mentorship okay so just

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really briefly so mission is just like that’s your direction like if you don’t decide where you’re going you’re bound to end up somewhere else just kind of

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get you know so it’s intentional aligned action um what kind of man do you want

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to be I want to be kind I want to be responsive I want to be a man of integrity like that becomes your

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direction that’s your directionality so really important to kind of spend some time to clarify that mindset is really

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like who you are how you think about yourself it’s sort of like and I like to use the four characters in any story The

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Villain the victim the hero and the guide and and usually and we go through that TR progression um just throughout

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our life cycle um maybe not the villain so much but maybe at times but it’s really you know victims heal into Heroes

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and heroes um you know become guides and so that mindset is a like a hero’s

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mindset is often where we want to make sure we’re not in a victim mindset things are happening to me uh versus you

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know things are happening for me this is an opportunity for growth so that’s an important lens uh to make sure to

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develop around mindfulness as we talked about this just self-awareness um sometimes you know growing up is is less

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about learning new things and more about unlearning old things and mindfulness really allows us to sort of like shed

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some of the things that are no longer working for us movement is really about body health and like you know your body

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keeps the score if you’re if it’s not performing well neither are you and I think we have to be especially in

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intentional about it in today’s modern world where you can literally live your life from your couch you know you know

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you do not need to move at all so that’s an important area of focus and then mentorship I talk about in terms of

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learning relationships and I think mentorship because it’s history is really like an old sage person telling a

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younger student and to some degree that’s true but really anybody can be our Mentor if we have that sort of like

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understanding you know that everybody is our teacher everybody has something to teach us and relationships are the best

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personal development Vehicles there are you know so we can use our relationships

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to really help us learn about ourselves and help us learn about

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others yeah that’s a really great framework oh goad yeah I was just gonna say so that’s sort of like that’s a

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focus of self leadership but as you get clear on that you start developing then relational leadership is kind of the

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same thing just in relationship what’s the vision of our relationship how do we want to be you know that kind of

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clarification um you know activities together relational mindfulness so it

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all sort of just kind of overlaps whether I’m working with couples or I’m working uh individually that’s awesome

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that’s really cool I’m I’m curious from that from those pillars which do you see as like the hardest for guys to overcome

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or to implement into their lives like are there any Trends or patterns that you see in the people that you work with

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yeah I I mean I think the relational piece for sure the mentorship piece because because of how we get socialized

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as men it’s it’s really um a dis disconnected one so by far that’s that’s

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the biggest piece but it starts in this kind of relationship and we can you know a lot of men are actually doing it they

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just don’t really you know so to shine a light on it and to kind of name it I think is really helpful and it doesn’t

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seem like such a uh a scary thing or something but um that’s that’s the one

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with men in particular that is the trickiest yeah do you find that guys like struggle to ask for help and find

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mentors or struggle to be mentors like which or both maybe that’s a great question definitely

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struggle to ask for help for sure um that’s a major barrier um you know I

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think and I I think because of it’s kind of a chicken or the egg thing for a lot of men because we don’t reach out and be

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vulnerable I mean connection connection is where vulnerability is and because

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we’re not willing to be vulnerable we really are pretty disconnected even if we’re you know like you’re alone in a

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crowd kind of thing right like we don’t or our relationships are housed in like a work setting where there’s a role and

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there’s barriers they’re not wide openen kind of vulnerability so I think a lot of men then don’t have those skills so

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um so they’re they often struggle with being a good Mentor as well because because if it’s authentic it’s

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vulnerable and so that has to be an important piece but that’s related to the mindfulness piece uh as well yeah I

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think they’re all interconnected right and and like the mindset P right because I think if you if you’re in a victim mindset you can’t be a mentor right or

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the mentorship you’re going to give is just like reinforcing victim mindset right being like oh yeah that

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there that’s the problem it’s not you right like you got to just you know it’s the government or whatever right it’s your boss you know just like creating

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that kind of like bitterness that see a lot of men have um which I’ve always found kind of interesting and I’m

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curious your thoughts on this right cuz I think traditional masculinity and toxic masculinity in some ways too has this like idea of individualization

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right you have to like do it all by yourself never ask for help don’t find mentors it means you’re weak you’re going to be submissive to somebody but

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then a lot of the guys who Who start working with me honestly are in that victim mentality I think a lot of guys

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stuck are stuck there and those things seem at odds because how can you be this like indiv idual hero right there’s like

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individual Lone Wolf but then feel like you’re fighting the world and the world is winning I’m curious if you see that

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interplay in in your work yeah for sure and I I think that happens because of

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the disconnection because of the isolation you know that men are really they don’t have they don’t have that

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image to reflect off you know you can reflect off things but it’s like looking at polaroid pictures all over you know

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without the intimacy it’s not a it’s not a genuine or a more authentic

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a more intimate sort of reflection do that I don’t know if that makes sense but but so then that so then

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that creates distance and then and then that gets interpreted as oh look them versus me you know it sort of sets up

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the sort of separation and that’s really like victim victim is a tough word because it’s there’s a lot of

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connotations and there’s certainly people that are are victims but I like to talk about victim

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stance or as just like things whether things are happening externally to you

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right or you have an internal locus of control which is like still the same thing it’s still raining outside but I’m

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not a victim to the rain I’m I’m going to go outside and like have fun in the rain right and that comes from an

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internal place but if men haven’t developed that it’s like a victimization

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is like a earlier in the process you know it’s the sapling you know but it’s

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like so we really need other guides we need other relationships to help us grow out of that and to feel

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connected um and that’s a missing piece so we kind of stay stuck in this and but

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then we hear these stories of like Rocky B and Superman and all these Heroes and

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and that’s how it fits together it’s like that’s how I should be but this is how I feel which is uh really isolated

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and like things are out of my control right yeah I mean what I’m hearing is like a lot of guys are like fronting the

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hero but they haven’t really integrated the hero you know they’re acting like Superman until it until they can right

29:59

until it falls apart but they don’t have that intimacy and that connection and that realness um and I think ultimately

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what El you’re talking about is like taking responsibility for your life you know even the things that are out of your control you can still take

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responsibility for how you deal with them how you you know manage them how you respond to them like there’s there’s

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power to be gained everywhere um versus just I think feeling victimized by the

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world yeah yeah yeah a having agency I think it was goth that said in uh I

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think the quote is um you know in the in the book of your life you don’t have any control over the story just your

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character then it’s sort of like having that understanding that agency that no matter how this things goes and I deal a

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lot with this when I first meet with men that are you know going through infidelity or the divorce or they lost

30:46

you know job loss or something right it’s like well you don’t have any control over the story but you do have

30:52

control over how it goes you know and at the end of it you can feel good about how you made decisions how you engaged

30:59

how you turned towards you know whatever hardship that you’re facing absolutely

31:05

yeah I think that’s critical for a leader you know I mean as you were talking earlier we talked about little bit this during the break is like this

31:11

idea of shifting from leading through fear leading through respect and um you

31:16

know one of my clients actually talked about this a couple weeks ago where where he said that you know the most masculine form of love for him is

31:21

respect you know and I I never really thought of it that way that respect is a is a form of love um and there is

31:28

something there right because I think is a way that we give and show love in maybe more traditional masculine you

31:34

know framework um but what I’m curious like how do you or how do you help people make that pivot because you know

31:40

my sense is that leading from Fear works really well in the short term right but leading from respect is much more of a

31:47

long-term game yeah often just by holding up the

31:53

mirror you know I mean the question is like you decide you know I don’t know you’re a complex Dynamic changing human

32:00

being I have no idea you know but like how well is it working you know like how how well is that style of leadership in

32:08

terms of the time you spend with your kids you know like how do your kids look at you what what would you want your

32:14

kids to say you know and or sometimes they do some like different exercises visualization exercises around values

32:21

clarification and and cuz really I mean with the ex I’m sure there’s there’s an

32:26

exception with some people of course but like the vast majority of men want to be

32:31

great men they want to be Men of Integrity they want to be great leaders they want to have success and

32:38

accomplishment and all those things and and that’s all possible uh but getting there isn’t just

32:45

forcing it through right and maybe at times it is but that’s just the question is helping teaching men giving them the

32:52

skills or the vehicle the scaffolding so that they can be honest with themselves

32:58

like okay you know is you know telling you know uh yelling at my partner you

33:04

know is that moving me closer to or further away from the man that I want to be like you decide if it’s closer to do

33:10

it you know if it’s further away I would invite you to consider something else

33:15

like maybe an alternative in that situation take a breath walk away whatever you know in the in this case of

33:22

of conflict but yeah so yeah I I think that’s what I try to do is just really

33:27

Empower men to sort of be honest with themselves and really sort of again mindfulness you know just observe

33:35

describe nonjudgment what happened I yell what happens around me you know what’s the impact of that yeah it makes

33:40

me think of the in science experiment the Marcus aurelus quote which is uh the

33:46

soil doesn’t lie right and he talks about men getting hobby for him it was like you know gardening or like digging

33:51

ditches right but like having something where you get 100% honest feedback right the soul doesn’t lie if you suck at

33:57

gardening your plants are not going to grow and there’s no way you can like over rationalize why they’re not growing

34:02

like either they’re growing or they’re not um and and I’m curious for you like how do you get guys to take in feedback

34:09

because I know so much of us are so defensive or like you said before victim mentality or almost like gaslighting

34:17

sometimes right like I think for whatever reason I’m curious if you have any ideas about the the why behind it but it seems like a lot of modern men

34:23

are really afraid to look in the mirror mhm yeah and I think that’s

34:29

changing you know I think the guys that end up coming to this process have some willingness you know and they’re still

34:36

you know so honestly I was just having this conversation this this guy got it wanted to get confrontational and like I

34:42

just don’t have time for that anymore like you’re not ready then you know like if you want to continue to live that way

34:47

that then you know like I’m not going to like save every man everywhere or anything like that you know like I’m

34:53

just a resource um I think elevating um you know with mindfulness

34:59

the values clarification like you tell me what’s important to you so I know and then and then the mindfulness thing of

35:06

just getting curious about like how you’re reacting and as you hold those things those two things together um

35:14

willingness happens there because we’re motivated to really be healthy and well

35:21

and have deep relationships and have connecting relationships is sort of like built in so so basically just leveraging

35:28

just like a tree will grow towards the sun just leverage human growth and development in a way that is

35:34

non-judgmental non-confrontational it’s really for me a lot of this work whether it’s coaching

35:40

or mentorship or therapy or couples’s work is really

35:47

um it’s really about I just lost my train of thought it’s really about just like the interactive dialogue you know I

35:54

know as a man for a long time I lied to myself about how it was going and I say this weekly you know like you’re too

36:00

close to yourself yeah to really sort of get it done so like this process of just

36:06

reflecting back on other people can be really valuable and and just that and of

36:11

itself yeah and I imagine to extend the thought um it’s critical as a leader

36:16

right to have that mirror from your employees

36:22

yeah yeah yeah I think so I mean I think it I think it it it’s all over plays

36:28

this sort of style of leadership and just it’s just human interaction a little bit but um yeah it could be quite

36:36

complicated when it gets a little bit more intimate and we get into relationships that are deeper and more connecting um absolutely yeah and I

36:44

think like you know creating as many avenues for feedback as possible cuz for me that that’s such a masculine quality

36:50

right is like dealing with reality as it is you know um whether it’s us whether it’s the truth of our business whether

36:57

it’s the truth of our family but I think like being a truth Hunter and a truth Seeker is critical to the masculine

37:02

Pursuit right like it’s we need to see the world as it is without filter so that we can be the more most effective

37:08

man we can be so I imagine I mean a lot of the work that I do and I imagine a lot the work that you do is like just stripping away that filter you know one

37:15

layer at a time to be like hey this is what’s really happening like are you ready you ready to accept it you ready to see that now that’s it I love your

37:22

Marcus aurelus quot I never heard that but that’s the dirt doesn’t lie so just it’s that simple fundamental it’s just

37:28

getting that feedback from your environment yeah yeah so we’re going to move to our next commercial break when

37:34

we come back we’re going to talk about some steps that our listeners might take to start practicing this relational

37:39

style bringing it into their place of leadership whether that be as a father as a business owner as a team leader

37:45

whatever is whatever it is um so Donald uh thank you so much and we’ll see you on the other side of the commercial

37:51

break

37:56

great

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40:17

welcome back to the show I’m your host Mark aay and we’re sitting here with Donald and we’re talking about relational leadership so Donald for

40:25

listeners like if they want to get started on working on these Five Pillars or they want to get started being more

40:30

vulnerable being more honest you know taking in feedback where’s a good place to

40:36

start yeah well as we were as we were talking I was reflecting I had read a book not a couple years ago maybe it’s

40:42

called radical honesty it’s written by Brad Blandon he was a psychotherapist I think it was written in the 90s so maybe

40:48

it’s not the most current book but um that might be that’s a great resource uh as a place to again sort of create this

40:56

filter and find feedback and what what that looks like and and getting a little

41:01

bit more honest with yourself um yeah and in terms of the Five Pillars

41:08

you know so mindfulness you know there’s a ton of mindfulness resources that are out there calm um you know headp space

41:16

there’s a number of those I would the I would also say one thing teaching mindfulness for many years there’s a lot

41:22

of misconception around mindfulness being like mind clearing or some sort of

41:27

tool to manage or control be more relaxed more peaceful that that’s called

41:33

relaxation and it’s really great mindfulness is is not you know falling

41:39

asleep or relaxing it’s falling awake it’s paying attention and so it’s a state of awareness so that’s a Nuance

41:46

it’s subtle but it’s a seismic sort of shift around intention of the practice we want to just notice what our

41:52

experiences moment to moment so with that being said like mindfulness is a great place to start

41:57

I would invite people to do therapy try coaching if you haven’t done it find a men’s group these are all just

42:03

interactive dialogue relational ways that fifth pillar of mentorship and approaching your relationship as um

42:10

learning opportunities um and the Val the thing I often almost always start with when I

42:17

work with clients is get clear on who who you want to be like what your values are and there’s a ton of resources

42:23

online even a mission statement is useful but some that becomes a formula for decision making is we usually make

42:31

decisions based on managing how we think and feel and that’s okay but it’ll Le it it’s not in your best interest your mind

42:38

isn’t always your friend so getting clear like oh I want to I want to be I want new experiences or creativity or

42:45

spirituality these are important things to me and that’s what I’m going to make my decisions on so some kind of values

42:51

clarification exercise um I would highly recommend is a good place to start and revisit from time to time so yeah I

42:58

think it’s absolutely critical right because in the mod world we have to create our own purpose and our own meaning and it’s not prescribed and you

43:05

know I think a lot of the guys that you know drawn to therapy in some ways are non-conformist right or anti-authority

43:10

so they’re not just going to like take a meaning wholesale they need to make it themselves and and I think it’s I think

43:16

it’s difficult for a lot of guys right or or I think it’s difficult to sometimes pick a value on one of those

43:22

values exercise it’s like well this isn’t like a traditional masculine value it’s something but it’s something that is really important and meaningful to me

43:28

you know um I wonder if you notice that with your clients like do they struggle when it comes to narrowing down their

43:35

values um yeah I mean I I think yes and I think the word you know

43:41

values I mean what it helps to have some discussion about like what that is what values are like what’s their nature that

43:47

kind of thing but I I think once you know if if if guys are willing to sort of do it go through some kind of even a

43:55

you know I have a worksheet right just like look at the values like which ones stand out to you or another great um way

44:02

to identify your values is thinking about what’s not going well what are you dissatisfied in your life let’s say I’m disconnected I’m lonely flip that upside

44:09

down and the opposite is connection right like so you can find your values by turning your dissatisfaction upside

44:16

down um or looking to other people this is helpful for me I often like like

44:21

Martin Luther King Jr for example is a a me you know he’s a vision for me you know and I can call him to my like those

44:27

are my values like that’s something that I aspire to so people in your life that inspire you are are good places to find

44:33

your values too yeah I like that a lot right and it’s like really deconstructing why you you know rever

44:39

and honor these other people can be really helpful in clarifying um I also like I know you didn’t mention it in the

44:45

beginning but like I like your movement pillar I think that that’s critical for guys I think especially you know young

44:50

men a lot of us are focused around like physical prowess and you know being

44:56

strong and fit and what whatever right and while that stuff I do think is important I think also what it takes to

45:01

get there builds a lot of masculine values it builds things like discipline it builds things like mindfulness it

45:07

builds things like you know commitment um it builds things like you know overcoming challenge like when you don’t want to go to the gym and you got to do

45:13

it anyway you know like nobody really likes going to the gym or like tracking calories or you know installing a new

45:19

exercise routine like all that stuff is tough but I I do think like when the motivation runs out which it does for

45:25

everybody it’s all about habits right it’s all about like those discipline and commitment things and for most guys I

45:31

think like mastering their body is a great you know kind of tool set and a great canvas to uh to work on

45:39

that yeah that’s great I I think that the the Five Pillars that I use and this isn’t unique to me and sort of my system

45:46

but they are interrelated and just to tie those values and mindfulness is like you know once you clarify what’s

45:52

important like health is important to you like once you start like crafting that narrative that I’m healthy and I’m

45:57

and you run a marathon or whatever you don’t have to worry about discipline right you know of getting to the gym you

46:03

know like you know what I mean you’re you’re moving it’s you make movement part of everything becomes aligned

46:08

everything is moving in that direction it’s refined and aligned you don’t have to fight whether you got to go or oh I

46:15

hate the gym or it’s raining you know that like that whole exhausting battle with yourself that you’re not going to

46:20

win you know like you you know so just like create conditions for you to be

46:25

successful and uh uh yeah and I think you can’t just do it so I if it’s just go to the gym go to the gym go to the

46:31

gym you’re not going to do it you’ll get bored there’s a billion reasons why you’re not but once you couch that into

46:37

a larger context of what kind of man are you who are you what are your goals what are your aspirations then you don’t have

46:43

those conversations anymore you sort of make them obsolete right yeah like going to the gym becomes self-expression in a

46:49

way it doesn’t become like a chore it’s like oh this is me being me or being the man or person I want to be you know I’m

46:56

I’m ious for you like um let fast forward right what does the Modern Man look like right say they they nail these

47:02

five pillars they become a relational leader how are they operating in the world like what’s what’s the hope that

47:08

these guys can move forward towards yeah I mean to be defined by each individual

47:14

you know as we’ve been talking it’s kind of unique I I was thinking too sometimes I talk about like writing your own it’s

47:20

your these five pillars is like your own owner’s manual you know like you and you you consult it it’s yours you build it

47:25

you write it um but you know the relational leaders as um I would say have more peace more

47:35

contentment more fulfillment you know there’s less energy in the sort of like chasing and striving and sort of like

47:43

managing and controlling as fear-based living you know because as you develop

47:48

as a relational leader you develop this confidence you you develop Clarity you know and and fear isn’t something that

47:55

you have to manage actually becomes what fuels your movement you know and you become more clear emotions aren’t bad

48:02

they’re actually energy right and you start to reframe everything is that mindset and now we’re using our inner

48:08

experience to really drive us in directions that are meaningful and important and as you’re doing that

48:14

you’re ending up in places that are more fulfilling they’re more connected your health is better your creativity is

48:21

strong spirituality you know like so you’re sort of building all those things and that leaves to fillment you know it

48:27

leads to happiness and and peace and contentment yeah I mean that’s a great vision right it’s like I’m just hearing

48:33

the word alignment just keeps coming to mind like everything is just like aligned everything’s in a row everything is like feeding off of each other and

48:40

creating this kind of positive feedback loop yeah aligned on purpose that’s my

48:45

deal right you know just being intentional being crafting that and really being intentional about bringing

48:51

these things and and overlaying and lining them up that’s where you know like misalignment is a big reason why

48:57

we’re dissatisfied so I just real quickly like if if honesty is important to you and you lie then you feel crappy

49:03

about it you don’t feel good you know and then like two weeks later you got to mess on your hands because you don’t

49:09

know who you lied to and whatever you know like all that’s brought to you by this misalignment so if family

49:15

connection art creativity if these things are important to you and you’re not actively moving your hands and feet

49:21

you are unknowingly creating uh suffering in your life right so the opposite then then is the idea is like

49:29

if if honesty is important to me I’m going to say what’s on my mind you know and then and I feel good about that I

49:35

feel solid you know I might have some emotions around that but I feel solid and that builds opportunities when

49:40

people need somebody they can trust because now I’m that person right and now you’ve created that opportunity for

49:47

yourself so just it’s moving that snowball spinning that in the other direction of health and growth yeah yeah

49:54

what was coming to mind is that something that I say to my clients too which is like you know I’m not going to tell you who you have to be but you have

50:00

to be somebody and and I I work with a lot of guys in like nice guy syndrome where they’re you know they’re

50:05

chameleons they’re not they’re not really taking stands on things like you said they’re not committing to honesty

50:10

or to creativity or to art or whatever and you know it’s because they’re afraid and because they’ve been conditioned

50:16

that way and it’s not their fault but it is this thing where I think there’s so many men that feel really faceless in

50:21

society and I feel like they’re not unique and they’re just like part of the crowd and when I hear you talk about you

50:27

know refining I mean self-actualization really right like that’s where belonging comes from because like you said you

50:32

become the vessel for honesty you become you know the mentor for Fitness you know

50:38

or you become like the leader that people respect there’s like the sense of belonging that is I think on the other side of this work um because you know to

50:45

listeners out there like if you’re trying to be everything for everybody you end up being nobody for nobody and I

50:50

think that’s um upsets a lot of guys because we try really hard to be everything for everybody but you you

50:56

can’t really you can’t really do that yeah I love that you said that his face like that came up earlier we

51:02

talking like idea of this ma The Mask right it’s so exhausting to have that mask and to live in this sort of like

51:08

disconnected world but to bring that together there’s you know there there there’s a gap there and that’s what this

51:14

work is really all about but I would also say this I love that you said belonging because when I meet with guys

51:19

no matter where they’re at in in a process of refining or self-actualization if you boil down

51:25

every you know why they’re doing it’s about connection why do you like you want to get rid of your anxiety so you

51:30

can go out more why do you want to go out more so you can be with people you know like if you keep asking why do you want that thing out of your life it

51:37

boils down to connection it’s just a basic human thing all right right um and

51:43

belonging so I agree with you yeah yeah and I think it’s what a lot of men are lacking is community you know so just

51:49

you know another plug for men’s groups and and working with kids and mentors is like I think we need Community I think

51:54

we are so unbelievably isolated you know like you said you could you can live your whole life from your couch you can order everything off Amazon you can work

52:00

from home you can just like you know watch all the content on Netflix to your heart’s desire like it’s so easy and in

52:06

many ways you know validated I guess and we’re moved towards being more isolated in the world for the sake of convenience

52:14

right but like sometimes life should be inconvenient you should need help right and like have to call on your friends

52:19

and neighbors I think that’s what creates or what has always created community in the past you know yeah we we’re actually wired that

52:27

way it’s just energy conservation you know it’s easier to sit on the couch so we got to move from thoughts and

52:32

feelings to values what’s important to us and create conditions for that we got to be intentional about it it’s like 50

52:39

years ago or 70 we didn’t have gyms because our lives were really movement now we got 24-hour fitness and stuff or

52:46

whatever you know and like same thing with this our emotional inner lives we need to be more intentional about it we

52:51

need to create conditions that we can be connected yeah we won’t I always find that so interested right of like so much

52:58

of human history has been about like creating ease and creating safety and like we did it like we actually

53:03

accomplished the task that like now it’s about like finding Challenge and finding danger because turns out we needed that

53:10

too right yeah yeah that’s that’s how it go it’s upside down now yeah yeah well

53:15

this is a great conversation Don I’m curious as it wrapping up like if you want to work with you where can they find you online and learn more about you

53:21

and what you do yeah I think I saw in your show notes like my website is there

53:26

you can connect with me my website follow my newsletter I do like a weekly just super brief tips and tricks and

53:33

perspective um nothing nothing small bite-sized things um I mean I’m on

53:39

social media I can follow things that I post from time to time um but just really yeah connect and if not me

53:46

someone else all the men that are out there um you know take the leap you know

53:52

take a risk give it a shot find some of these resources and then you decide whether it’s going to be helpful for you

53:58

or not but I’m happy to talk to guys even if it’s a brief conversation about

54:03

what you want to do next therapy coaching couples whatever uh and again if it’s not with me we can find you

54:09

somebody else awesome you’re a wonderful resource for a lot of guys out there thank you so much for being on the show

54:15

yeah you too thank you Mark and if you’re a listener and you want to learn more about us you can check us out at menstherapypodcast.com we have a video

54:22

version of this interview you can check us out on YouTube uh the website men’s therapy. online we have Retreats coming

54:29

up this year two backpacking and one Psycho Drama and then we also have some really great men’s groups that are recruiting and we have a book club that

54:35

we launch so check everything out everything is on men’s therapy. online or men’s therapy podcast.com so

54:41

listeners thank you so much for tuning in and we’ll see you next week another episode of the men’s therapy

54:55

podcast