In this episode of the Men’s Therapy Podcast, we sit down with Eric Gee. He is a renowned author and a life coach. He developed a groundbreaking personality types system based on “animal personality types’. Eric has a diverse background, including experience with major companies like Disney and Hulu. He is running a creative space called, Utopia Creatives in Los Angeles. Throughout the episode, Eric offers valuable insights into understanding personality types. His expertise helps people leverage these insights for meaningful transformation. Eric discusses the importance of recognizing neurodiversity in the workplace. He highlights its crucial role in understanding different personality types.
“People are different than how society or your social circle of friends reads them,” Eric shares. His early lessons from his father sparked his lifelong interest in personality. This foundation led Eric to develop a system that goes beyond the popular Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI). It is based on the ‘Animal personality types’. It offers a more dynamic and accessible approach using animal archetypes. His book, “The Power of Personality” explores this methodology. That makes such personality types relatable and actionable for all.
Eric’s work focuses on understanding the impact of personality types on teamwork and leadership in the workplace. Recognizing how different people process the world helps teams work together efficiently. This understanding fosters cohesion, even when members disagree.
“When you know why someone is acting a certain way, it makes it easier to work with them,” Eric explains. His system categorizes people into four main “packs” based on core values. Such as safety, excitement, self-knowledge, and information. These packs are further divided into sixteen personality types. They help leaders and team members alike navigate complex workplace dynamics.
Eric explains that “Foxes,” who thrive on excitement and risk, differ from “Beavers,” who value rules and structure. Understanding these differences can prevent misunderstandings. This insight fosters a more productive work environment. This approach is particularly valuable in diverse settings like the tech industry. Places like these recognize neurodiversity as a strength.
Eric’s system provides valuable insights for personal development and mental health. These insights extend beyond the workplace. It is particularly for men who may struggle with societal expectations around masculinity. “The stag personality type is what men are told they should be. Confident, structured, responsible,” Eric notes. Yet he emphasizes that this archetype only fits about 12% of men. This may leave many feeling inadequate or lost.
Eric’s work encourages men to embrace their true personalities. Whether they align with the “Stag,” “Fox,” or even the more introspective “Shaman” or “Smith” types. This self-awareness can be transformative. It can help men to understand their strengths and weaknesses. It can guide them to approach life with greater confidence and authenticity.
Eric’s Project Utopia is a physical manifestation of his philosophy. It’s a place where people can explore their personality types. It allows people to work on personal development in a supportive, community-oriented environment. Project Utopia offers a space where all personality types can thrive. It doesn’t matter if you’re a “Butterfly” seeking artistic expression or a “Shark” looking for a new challenge.
Eric Gee’s personality typing system is more than just a tool for understanding others. It is a pathway to self-awareness and personal growth. Recognizing and embracing our true selves helps us build stronger relationships. It helps us lead more effectively. It also makes navigating modern life easier.
Eric Gee is a multifaceted professional with a background in life coaching, writing, and corporate team dynamics. He is the author of The Power of Personality. It is a book that explains his unique system of personality types. It uses animal archetypes to make complex psychological concepts more accessible. Eric’s work has been implemented in major corporations like Disney and Hulu. He has helped teams improve their efficiency and communication. He has done this by better understanding each other’s personalities.
Besides his corporate work, Eric runs Project Utopia. This creative space offers workshops and events. They are designed to help people explore their creativity. They help them connect with their true selves. Eric’s approach to personality types is not only about categorizing people. It is about helping them grow and thrive in both their personal and professional lives.
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the episode of the Men’s Therapy Podcast. I’m here with Eric G., and we’re talking about different personality types. So, Eric has developed a system that he’s used in some pretty serious companies. He’s done it with Disney, uh, with Hulu. He’s out there trying to help people understand themselves and understand other people, help teams work more efficiently together.
He’s an author, uh, he’s a life coach, he’s a writing coach, and the name of his book is The Power of Personality. Unlock the secrets to understanding everyone in your life, including yourself. We’ll And one other thing about him is that he runs a creative space in Los Angeles called, uh, Utopia Creatives.
So, Eric, welcome to the show. You have quite a repertoire of achievements and accomplishments.
Oh, thank you for having me, Mark. And that’s impressive just considering how lazy I am. And, you know, I try to get as much done as possible, but you know, it’s gonna be difficult based on my own personality type.
Yeah, I can’t wait to dive into that. Uh, when you’re talking, I’m going to be like, Oh, do me, do me. You know, like, I’m curious if I
Let me guess after, you know, yeah, I’ll definitely, I would definitely love to guess what type you are.
Awesome. Awesome. That’d be a cool thing to do as we’re going through. So, uh, here we like to start with a personal story, right? So I’m curious, like, what got you into this work? Um, you know, were you someone that studied different people and personalities growing up? Like, how’d you learn this?
You know, it’s, it’s funny. It goes all the way back. I guess everyone can do that because all the way back. Um, I, you know, I was talking to my dad when I was younger and I’m talking like five or six years old and my, I guess it comes from my dad. My dad would just tell me, look, you know, the way people are and the way people think about them don’t always believe it, right?
People are different than how, like, I guess, society or just your social circle of friends, um, reads them, you know, because we often have this one, like visor that we look through. Um, And, um, yeah, and she just told me, just don’t listen to what people say. Just listen to what they’re doing and then try to think about why they’re doing it.
And that should tell you a little bit more about people. And I just always had that in my mind. So as I got older and I started feeling like, Oh, like people are a lot different than we’re told that we should act, right? Like people are always told to act a certain way in school. I was not always the best student and I was like, there’s gotta be something to this where, you know, unless there’s something totally wrong with me, right?
You know, I got to figure out what it is, if there is something wrong with me. And it just led me to studying about personality type. And I read a lot about it. Um, and then I eventually started my own education company. We’d work with about a thousand students a year, um, including their parents. Um, and so essentially I trained my teachers to, um, learn this personality typing methodology to figure out more about their students so that they wouldn’t allow their own bias to, uh, work against them.
Yeah, I think that’s so important now, you know, with the conversations around like neurodiversity, right? And different learning styles. I feel like, you know, uh, I imagine maybe we’re so much generation. Are you millennial eric?
I’m not, I’m actually a Gen X er. Go Gen X ers for all the Winona Ryder fans out there, yeah. Oh
about i’d be curious your experience I think it was I know the millennial generation is when, you know, learning disabilities were really coming into their own and people were learning different ways to teach students. And now we’re getting another wave of, you know, neurodiversity, you know, people on the spectrum and things like that.
But with Gen X, like they just left it to the wolves, right? Like they were like, it was kind of one size fits all
Yeah, yeah, it was definitely, yeah, they didn’t care. They were just like, yeah, you know, like, uh, walk to school when you’re seven, and walk back home, you know, when you’re seven. Like, which I kind of actually, to be honest, maybe it’s a generational thing. I like that idea. You know, I know in Japan, little kids still go on the train, you know, by themselves, but, uh, it was definitely, like you said, thrown to the wolves.
Yeah. You do, you do you and try to figure it out on your own.
Yeah. So I can imagine as a kid, if you didn’t fit into that mold, it would have been really difficult, right. To learn and to figure out like how to navigate the world. Like you’re saying.
Yeah, I think it’s gotten a lot better. I think just like everything else. I mean, everyone likes to complain. I think in America, we ought, we do like to complain a lot. I think we’re a little bit spoiled. We got a pretty good here. Um, but I think generationally it’s definitely better than it was 10 years ago and 10 years ago was better than it was the first 10 or 10 years before that.
And, you know, on and on it goes. Right. And I think we do. Spend a lot of time now, like you said, neurodivergence and trying to figure out, oh, this person learns differently. Like, let me not put the onus on them to learn my way, but let me try to adjust and meet them where they’re at. You know, and I think the same can be said true, um, for personality typing as well.
And the more people learn about it, not only just by in the education setting, but just in a personal setting, it might help, uh, relationships quite a bit.
Yeah. So, so you said you were studying personality types and, you know, I’m a psychotherapist, we, we learn a lot about that stuff, you know, as we’re going through education, were there any in particular that stood out to you?
You know, I learned MBTI, which I think is the one that everyone learns, you know, Myers Briggs for anyone doesn’t know. And I liked it. And I, that was the first thing I learned was like, Oh, this is really cool. And I figured out what my type was. And I was like, wow, this really fits and also shows why I’m weird, you know, or at least different.
Um,
What’s your, what’s your type from, from Myers
my type for Myers Briggs is an ENFP.
Okay.
So I, and my methodology still uses 16 types just like Myers Briggs, but you know, in setting it and like, you know, I would say experimenting, but like observing my students over the course of owning the education and company for a decade, like you start to see, like, I would say cracks in the theories, but more so like things that don’t totally match, like everyone always complains because I’m always like, yeah, introversion, extroversion, but people are like, well, I’m extroverted in this situation.
I’m introverted in this situation. So it’s all, you know, And I was like, well, there has to be more to it. So my methodology is based more on value system and like how we value things differently. Um, so even though it has 16 personality types, I use, actually use animals to symbolize my personality type because that’s easy to remember.
Um,
Way more accessible than just like four random letters.
everyone’s done MBTI, right? Everyone’s like, yeah, I know. I was like some common, I don’t know, LJ, um, M like they forget. Right. But everyone remembers if they’re a Fox, they’ll remember they’re like, Oh yeah, I’m a Fox. You know, people love being a fox, you know, that’s, um, some don’t like being their animal, but you know, I’m a baboon and that’s not the most flattering animal.
So I’m just like, Hey, you know what? Just suck it up. If you don’t like your animal too bad, you know,
Learn, learn to love the animal within. Right.
exactly. That’s probably a lesson in of itself, right? Learn to love yourself. You know, like not everyone can be cool like a fox and people are like, you know, more, uh, structured and serious like beavers, you know, they build dams.
That’s pretty cool. You know,
Hmm. Yeah. So, okay. So you have, you learn in the education company and then you decide to take it corporate or what happened after that? Like, how do you make the jump?
So it’s funny, I just, I shuttered my education company and actually got into writing again, my background, academic background is in screenwriting. And so I started trying to write screenplays again. And, um, it just so happened that I met a friend who, you know, I joined a writing group and we talk, we would talk about this personality typing at a bar.
Afterwards and, you know, everyone got into it and they were like, oh, you know what, like you should write a book on that. And of course I didn’t. I was like, no, no, no, I’m gonna be like, I’m gonna keep writing my scripts about animals that are, or rabbits that are sex addicted. Um, it was a true story. And then she put it in the show that she writes for.
And so I was like, Oh, I guess like she, in the one episode of the show that she writes for, she kind of featured my animal types in a funny way. Like she changed the animals, but I was like, okay, I guess I should write a book on this. Cause this is a great way to pitch it to as featured on, you know, Apple TV, you know?
And, um, and then I went back to the life coaching and writing coaching. And then a friend of mine, sorry, this is a long roundabout way of answering this question, but, um, uh, a friend of mine was a project director or product manager. One of the two at Hulu and Disney, or I guess they’re both the same company.
And so I started working with her teams on it and giving her advice on how to work better with her software engineers. And I mean, that’s how I came about with a corporate angle.
Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So I’m curious, like what kind of results have you gotten once you’ve implemented this in a, in a team?
You know, it’s,
do people stay or what do you notice? Yeah.
I will notice that people listen more, you know, they might not like each other more, but at least they’ll know, like, okay, like at least it’s consistent, you know, what’s coming, you know, why it’s coming, you know, like, let’s say, especially with software engineers, not to like, you know, I don’t want to put a big blanket on all of them, but like.
Oftentimes they’re not always the most socially adept, you know, when you spend a lot of time learning about coding and which, which has to do with their personalities. Some personalities are much more based on information and less based on like interacting with people, which is okay. But of course that can be a weakness when working on a team.
So I think sometimes those people can come off like assholes maybe. And I think it’s more or less understanding that no, they’re just honest. I mean, they’re just not really caring what you, Have to say and they’re just gonna tell you what they think and I think that helps the team work better Even they might not get along and they might not have a beer afterwards They’ll still like work better together and be more productive.
I can see that, right? I think especially we do it a lot in therapy and in the men’s groups I run and things like that of like really understanding like diversity of thought and diversity of just like perception almost. Because I think that’s one of the hardest ones for people to really grapple is like people process the world very, very differently.
Oh, right for sure Like I had a parent once Complaining not complaining but like talking about her son and she’s like I don’t understand like I asked him how I looked And then he said, I looked like crap like when she was dressed up and I was like, well, uh, maybe he was just being honest and she was like, yeah, he was being honest, but he’s not supposed to tell me that he’s supposed to tell me.
I look great. I’m his mom, you know, and I’m like, well, you know, he, he, he thought you wanted an actual honest answer. Cause that’s the way he perceived your question. Right?
I thought you were actually asking a question, not just like seeking validation, right? Or seeking
Exactly. He was just like, I thought you wanted honesty and that’s what I’m bringing you. Like the greatest gift he can give is honesty. And she got mad at him and then, and then she felt bad and she’s like, oh, okay. That’s just my son. Yeah.
Yes, let’s dive into the theory, right? You said it was based on values. Um, I’m sure you’ve explained it tons of times. So I’ll just give you the spotlight. What’s the best way to start to explain your theory of personality?
So I think, um, thinking that we can separate, and I hate to say the word categorize, but I’ll just say it, um, categorize people into four different packs and I use the term packs cause obviously they’re animal personality types and each pack has a different core value. Um, and one of them might be safety and security and that is like 50 percent approximately of the world.
So you can imagine like that is what we’re taught like in school, like how to be safe, how to like keep your homework structured and organized banner. Um, they value the idea of certainty oftentimes because when they’re certain about things that makes them feel safer, right? We know black, this is black, this is white, then sometimes we feel a little bit safer.
Um, and that’s one pack. And then maybe a third of the population. Oh, sorry. I’m sorry. So that first pack, I call them gatherers. Um, the second pack, I call them hunters and they make about a third of the population and they value like visceral excitement, like getting out there and feeling, seeing, smelling the world.
And then there’s like the two other packs that make up, I’d say the minority packs. They’re about, let’s say 8 percent of the population each. And I call them Smiths and shamans. And they value, uh, one value, self knowledge and the other values information. So, sorry, it’s getting really wonky, but like those ways I would divide them.
And you can see those are four values that are very, very, uh, can be very counter to each other. So,
Yeah, that’s, that’s pretty good. So there’s, um, there’s this theory of masculinity from like union psychology where they divide it into a King, warrior, magician, and lover. I’ll see that that almost overlays with the packs that you’re putting out
Oh, yeah.
far as like the four different archetypes
I love how they put like, yeah, the gatherers essentially are the kings, right? I mean that it seems yeah, it’s funny how that’s like, oh, no, they should be in charge a little bit But yeah, it’s worse. That lover is probably self knowledge and yeah wizard or magician is probably information, right?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it’s
down to your D& D avatar. Well, what D& D avatar? Who would you be? Would you be like a halfling, uh, thief? It all comes down
well, I mean, uh, what would you, I play D and D
Oh, I was just making, I was just the halfling thief. I was just trying to pull out something. I wouldn’t be that, but you know, it is kind of, I actually wrote an article about what D and D avatar would you be based on your personality type?
I thought that was funny.
that’s pretty good. Yeah. I’m, I’m a paladin through and through. That’s my, that’s my type,
I, that already, that, that says a lot already.
Yeah, quite, quite rigid in, in some ways trying to do the right thing, even when it’s like not, uh, uh, appropriate, you know, in this situation kind of thing, a
spiritual. Paladins are spiritual, right? Like they’re spiritual warriors, steadfast warriors.
Yeah. Spiritual practice of training Buddhism and things like that.
So have, have some of that there. Um, okay. So, so you got these four packs. Uh, so yeah, let’s, let’s break them open. Like, like what are in each of these packs when you subdivide a little bit
Okay. Yeah. So there’s the gatherer pack and that let’s go down. Cause that’s the majority of people. So we can start with that. Um, then I start, there’s four animals within the gatherer pack, and of course, four times four is sixteen, right? So sixteen personality types in total. And you can separate those two groups based on what they value within that value, right?
So if you value safety and security, we think of the things that give us a feeling of safety and security. And for them, they value, um, the idea of duty. Like, what should I be doing? What is, like, society telling me I should be doing in my role? And then family. And I say that and everyone’s like, Oh, but I value my family too.
I’m like, yeah, I get it. I get it. Everybody loves family, but we do value them, our family differently, you know? And, um, for those two gather, uh, types or sections, I, I always, the example I always give is like, if you go to a parent teacher conference, right. It’s like, and the teacher just rails on the student, right.
Um, it’s the parent’s reaction can tell us what gather they are. If the parent sides, immediately sides with the teacher. They’re probably duty followers, right? And so I call those stags and beavers. And then if the parent sides with a kid or maybe like falls in their sword for the kid and saying like, Oh, you know, like it’s my fault.
I haven’t been home quite a bit. I always get home late. I haven’t helped them with their homework. Then they would fall on the family side and the animals in the family side are elephants and bears. Um, so that’s how I divide those two. So you get duty followers and family followers and they all under fall under the umbrella of, uh, safety and security.
And those would be the gatherers,
Okay. And then I just got to ask, is it subdivided one more time? Like what, what separates like a stag and a beaver?
a sta of beaver. So I would say a sta of beaver because they follow duty as like their main, um, priority. The, but the stag follows a chain of command, like they emphasize chain of command. Beavers emphasize rules, and I know a lot of people might say, isn’t that the same thing? Like a chain of command is like a set of rules.
And it’s like, yes and no, like it’s more, a chain of command is more like, I’m going to listen to you cause you’re above me. And the people below me are going to listen to me because I’m above them. Right. Whereas a beaver might hold the person above them more accountable to the rules if they break the rules.
And that, and that would be the difference between the two.
more kind of like the universal values or the universal game, right? And authority isn’t as important, but it sounds like for stags, it’s all authority. Even if there isn’t like consistency amongst the authority, it’s more about like rank and
Right. And I don’t want to, I mean, sometimes that sounds bad. Cause obviously we see a lot of movies where stags are often the bad guys because like, what are they doing? They’re just falling above them. I think most of the time stags are like, look, I understand that this is a little rigid. But especially in the context that they’re in quite a bit, like chain of command is very, very important.
Like oftentimes military law enforcement, the legal system where it’s like, yeah, you can’t really think too much about what you’re the person above you says, because if you think too much and like start to analyze that, then you’re dead. Right. Because sometimes you just have to follow orders, right? Like that’s the way it goes, you know, in sports, same thing.
You listen to your coach, whatever they say. Right. And. And then maybe complain when the game is not on the line. So yeah, I just want to, since stags are picked on quite a bit, even though stags make up a large percentage of the ruling population. So I guess we shouldn’t feel too bad for them. You know,
Right. Yeah. I think they’re doing pretty good in the world right now.
yeah.
And I always say, since, you know, I know your podcast is about men’s therapy and like, I guess, gender specifics. Like I think. The stag personality type is what men are told they should be. Like that is exactly what they’re told. Should they should be confident, um, like certain about things, structured, organized, responsible, aggressive.
Like if I, if they want something, they take it, but they’re also, um, like, like once again, responsible and family oriented because gatherers are all family oriented. And I think that’s what men are told they should be. And so that works for about, you know, 12 percent of men, but it doesn’t, that leaves out like 88 percent of, you know, the gender, which can be a little bit difficult, I think.
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think our culture certainly rewards that stag mentality. Right. It’s like, if you bind the system fully, you will get rewarded. You know, you leave other parts of personality on the table, but there is like a clear path when I think of stag, like you said, I feel like that’s like a track, like it feels very linear
Oh yeah. A hundred percent. They’re just like, no, do you, I don’t understand. Why don’t you just do what works that worked for me, you know, but of course not everything that works for you is going to work for other people. Right. But they, they’re in their mind. They’re like, no, that’s it worked for me. So just do it.
I will say they’re very confident. So even if they. They don’t, they aren’t right. They’re definitely a sound that they’re right about things.
goes a long way, you know, that’s the power in of
My mom, my mom is a stag and she, by the way, it’s also the school principal type. My mom was a school principal, which makes it funny that I was so such a bad student. But, um, like, yeah, she’s constantly saying stuff like, Oh yeah, I know how to gut a fish or full it. Yeah. Gutting. I’m like, you don’t know who is the last time you’ve gutted and scaled a fish, but she’ll talk about it.
Like she’s done it like a thousand times.
He’s an expert on that. She’s, she’s, she’s getting a points on that level. And she’s like, I got this locked in.
Oh yeah. Of course. Yeah. She, cause no one’s going to challenge. Oh, unless people challenge her. She’ll like be able to skate by.
yeah, no, it’s gonna be like, got this fish right now. Right. Just throw it on the table and do
be honest, sometimes I do that. We’re not necessarily the fish metaphor or fish example, but like when she, I’ll call her out, but I’m sorry, I hit my computer. Uh, yeah, I’ll call her out all the time on that.
So the next one you said is, uh, is family. So I’m curious when you say that they like value family. Right. Is it, they, yeah, they value the connection. They value like legacy or lineage. Like, can you unpack that a little bit more? What do you mean by valuing
It, I guess they would, at their worst, they would be smotherers. So, um, when you think of like, cause I mean, I think we can all value family too, strings and like the duty followers, you know, they, they’re not siding with the teacher just because they don’t like their kid. They’re signing because they’re like, I love my kid.
And I want them to be a fine, upstanding citizen. So that’s, cause that’s my duty as a parent. So I need to make sure when they get out there, they are like a good person. Um, I think the family, uh, prioritizers are just so, I guess I want to say, yeah, soft hearted. I think that’s okay to say someone’s soft hearted.
They’re just so warm. And so like an elephant wants to bring people into their family. So not just the people they’re related to, but they’re the parent who, you know, they’re the parent of your friend. Who’s always like, Hey, you want to stay over for dinner? Like they’re that type. Who’s always wanting to bring friends and like, into like their large family.
Whereas I think the bears are a lot more about protecting the family that they already have. You know, like they’re very protective, sometimes overly protective. Um, but I think it’s just like connection, like an actual, like warm connection to their, um, children is super important to them, which I think it’s not that necessarily priority for other types.
Right. Even though I think society sometimes tells us it should be a priority. I think. Well, no, I just want them to be good citizens or I want to make sure that they’re following their ambitions, which is different than having a warm personal connection with your kid.
Yeah, I’m really happy that you said that because, you know, with a number of, um, divorced dads, right? And new fathers. And even just you saying that, like, not everybody feels that way. It’s so critical because, you know, in a therapy room, it’s confidential. And guys will often say, like, yeah, I don’t feel this way towards my kid.
Like, am I a sociopath? I mean, really, like, they go all the way down the deep hole. Like, am I, like, deeply, deeply broken because I’m not having this experience that seemingly everybody else is having, you know?
Yeah. You know, they have stories with Abraham Lincoln where, you know, he looked at his kids. I mean, Abraham Lincoln was, we’ll go into that later, but this was a Smith type and they’re odd. I mean, he’s odd with quotations. I don’t think they’re odd, but I think a lot of people might think they’re odd. And they’re just very curious about things.
They prioritize information. So oftentimes Smith’s like Abraham Lincoln will just look at their kids, like interesting creatures to observe. Um, and that’s kind of that objectivity is actually really appreciated by those kids, especially when they get older. And that’s the parent that’s least likely to smother and go, Oh, let me follow you to college, you know?
Oh, where are you moving? You’re moving away. No, no, no. You need to stay close to home. That parent will say, no, yeah, go travel the world and like find out different things that, um, I would also be curious, you know, like to find out. And they’re just much more interested in figuring out what their kid really likes and they might give them the opportunity to follow that, but it might, they might not necessarily seem to be the most loving, you know?
loving, right? And I think we can just understand that every personality type, especially when it comes to parents or parenting has, has its strengths and weaknesses. And those things are generally related to each other. I think that makes us happier and healthier.
I agree. Yeah. And like some things I tell my dudes is like, just find other parent figures that can cover the bases that you can’t cover, you know? So if you are more of that, like, you know, Smith kind of like tinkerer mechanistic version, like find someone really warm, like, because your parent, or your kid will also benefit from that, you know?
Right. I mean, there’s lots of different role models and parental figures out that aren’t like, you know, related to us, which is great. You know, I think that’s the beauty of like living in a kind of a sophisticated, nice society is that we have that coaches, teachers, all those things.
Yeah. So let’s back to the theory right now we’re on hunters, right? So what’s the subdivision there?
Oh, hunters. Yeah. Hunters love it. Hundreds of the ones are like hundreds. They love to party. Um, they just love like, so that’s the typical, like, you know, that’s the typical dichotomy, right? When you just see pop culture is hunter gather, right? Like you see like everyone, there’s Bert and there’s Ernie, right?
There’s the odd couple and I forgot their names cause I’m Gen Xer and I never watched the odd couple. But like, I think we think of like the responsible structured person and then the fun spontaneous person, right? Hunters would be the fun, spontaneous person. You know, they love excitement. Yeah. Um, now they go about getting it different ways.
Like I split it up based on their foxes and sharks and they get their excitement by adrenaline. Like they get that adrenaline rush, um, versus the peacocks and butterflies. They get their excitement through consumption, consuming the world. So I think the equivalent would be, or the difference might be riding a rollercoaster versus having a nice meal, you know, and I think that would be the, yeah, the biggest difference.
Um, yeah. So yeah, foxes and sharks, they’re like risk takers, they love action, they love to like feel like they’re scared, which is funny, which is why it’s so different than gatherers, right? Because gatherers love safety and security, so they’re like, wait, why would I want to feel scared? I want to feel safe.
And hunters are like, no, but that’s the fun of life, is when, you know, things are, you might die. You’re not gonna die, it’s like a 1 percent chance, but that 1 percent makes it pretty fun, you know, so. Right.
I got that. Right. So it’s like, yeah, I mean, it’s like hedonism. Right. But I’m hearing like one, one’s hedonistically said consumption and like sensorial hedonism. Right. And then one is more like, um, yeah, I guess experiences or danger seeking, or this idea of like overcoming challenge in a way. Right.
Like kind of like the, the rollercoaster, like you said,
Right. And I like that you said hedonistic because that’s a negative. That’s how they go. Like when, at their negative, at their most negative, they consume too much. Right. So the butterflies
It’s all
are worse. Yeah. Like you think of the wide receiver, a lot of wide receivers are peacocks because they’re so physical.
Like peacocks are the most physical of the types and they love to move. Like you meet a peacock. They’re almost always gonna be dancing, even though there’s not music going on. They’re just hearing music in their head and they’re just dancing in line. Of course, their weakness is that they can over consume.
So I always think of like athletes were who are really ripped when they’re playing and then once they retire, they kind of gain a lot of weight because you know that consumption continues, but obviously the exercise maybe doesn’t continue. Um, so yeah, every type has their own weaknesses and generally they come from their strengths, right?
Yeah. Okay. So yeah, so let’s dive into this. What’s the difference between a peacock and a butterfly?
Peacocks, I think of peacocks as like the, they are the model. They’re like the performer. They’re like the one who, they’re like the one who wants the spotlight. Butterflies are more of the, like a butterfly, they’ll go into their artistic cocoon, whether they’re a songwriter, whether they’re a visual artist, or a chef.
They’ll go in there, into their lab, kitchen, studio, and work on that, and then, Bring it out there, their work of art, um, for people to admire. So I think that would be the biggest difference. I guess you could say if peacocks are the model fashion model, then, um, butterflies, the fashion designer.
Right. Yeah. That makes sense. Right. So yeah, like peacocks are kind of always on display. Whereas what I’m hearing you say is that like the butterflies are like they take their time and then they give you the completed project when it’s done.
yeah. And you generally like, and I don’t, and I usually use like one word sometimes. And sometimes if you experiencing and meeting a lot of different people, you can get it to where it’s like, Oh yeah. Okay. Just the feeling someone gives off can give you the personality type. And peacocks are loud. Like that’s the feeling like, Oh, this person is loud.
And they’re like, always like at spinal tap terms, they’re up to 11, you know, where butterflies are a lot more gentle and soft spoken. So like a lot of men, when men are butterflies, it can be tricky, right? Because oftentimes they’re thought of, which is nothing wrong. They could be thought of as being gay or like a feminine, like they get it because of the expectations of what a dude is supposed to be.
Right. And it sucks because, you know, there’s a lot of like, Gentle male butterflies like, like Bob Dylan or something, you know, like who have a lot to contribute. Right. But if they’re told at a young age, Oh, no, this is wrong. There’s something wrong when you need to toughen up. Then I think we’re taking a lot of their strengths away.
Yeah, yeah. And I think it’s like, I also work with a lot of software engineers, right? And, um, they may be, they’re more on that smithing type. Well, we haven’t gotten there yet, but when I think of them, I think of the butterfly archetype too, where some of them like, they just want to be like left alone. They want to do their project.
They really do find artistic, uh, you know, artistic creativity in it a lot of times, but then they get upset because they’re like, Oh, I know I had to play office politics. I didn’t know I had to like talk to people or go to the happy hours or like actually like. mingle. I thought like my work would, you know, speak for itself, you know, and I get promoted because I’m like making good shit.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Then obviously a lot of companies don’t work that way. They’re like, no, no, who do, who knows who? And like, how much have you gone to like, once again, it’s because a lot of the ruling class tend to be like, Gatherers and gatherers are, I mean, that’s how they run. That’s how they roll. You know, they’re like, what’s the structural system of our company?
Who do you know? And I mean, I think that works to a certain extent, but obviously that’s like, can be, there can be a huge downside to that too, right?
Right. Yeah. Well, and I think it’s upsetting for some people, different personality types, because likeability is like a factor that they just weren’t aware of and didn’t really like expect for, you know? And, and they’re like, Oh no, I have to learn these, these skills that I may be struggling with my whole life because it’s like, you know, their personality type or whatever their inclinations are.
Yeah. They’re like, wait, I thought just doing my job and doing it really well would work for me, but you know, and obviously there are certain companies that do, I do think software engineering, at least of all the companies, or at least, I guess, uh, financial sectors, I do think. Software engineering is definitely better at appreciating oddballs.
I’m putting that in quotes, air quotes, as opposed to like finance or something like that. Finance and, you know, that gets a little bit even more like, who do you know? Are you cool? Are you a cool person, you know, versus I think software engineering at least is a little bit more forgiving about that.
I agree with that. Yeah. I think something’s like finance. Yeah. There’s still like inside baseball and networking and like lineage and all that kind of
Yeah, that’s all the though. That’s, that’s where a lot of hunters are in finance, like in terms of like stock trading, like the hunters, like the foxes and the sharks, because they like to hustle their hunters are pure hustlers, right? They’re, if you tell them they’re not going to do the linear approach, like, unless they think it’s going to benefit them, but they’re definitely like, no, no, I would prefer to like just hustle and do my thing.
I don’t mind if like, I do work a lot, really hard on something. And if I failed and I don’t get rewarded, they’re like, because if I don’t do a good job, then it’s okay. But if I do a good job, you better reward me. And they tend to like. financial or jobs that appreciate that.
Okay. So is it more like competition? If
Yeah.
side, like that more, what motivates them?
Hunters are big on competition and specifically the foxes and the sharks because they’re, you know, the competition, especially with sports, like if you get off on adrenaline, obviously sports are automatically going to, your adrenaline is going to rise. Right. So like, that’s a big thing for them is a competition.
Okay. Yeah. So what differentiates a Fox and a shark?
I always differentiate the fox and the shark by saying a fox will shoot a thousand shots to hit one target. A shark will wait a thousand hours to take one shot to hit that target. And I think that’s different, right? Like if, not to use a bar metaphor, but if a Fox is at a bar and they want to pick up someone, they’re just like, I just ask every, I’ll pick 20 people and who I think are hot as 20 people.
And because they’re like, well, look, let’s say I get rejected 19 times, right? That still means that I’m going home with one person, right? And I’m okay. You’re right. That I’m okay with, right? Um, a shark might be like, and I got to find the right person, find the right person. Okay, that person. Okay. I’m gonna, what do they like?
What do they like? And they just focus really hard on that. And then they go for it, you know, and they pounce. Um, and you can see those two mentalities are very useful depending on the situation.
Yeah, I’ve never made that distinction before. Like I’ve, I’ve talked to my clients about like developing from, from fox to shark. I, the way I’ve talked about it is like going from like a barbarian to a samurai. You know, like I think a lot of like, especially young dudes in the hustle culture, like we start as barbarians or just like attack everything with full force and like, maybe something will work.
And then the samurais, like we talked about with the shark is like one cut, right? It’s like know exactly how to do the one cut that like cuts the dude in half, you know, from the movies. Um,
yeah, I do like that idea of like, you can’t just smash everything in sight. Right. Like I would say foxes when they mature and they grow, it’s more about figuring out what are like in a bar. Okay. Let me, what are the 20, as opposed to asking everybody at the bar, let me figure out 10 to 20 people that I like.
And then ask that 10 to 20. Um, like there’s this movie and I, I write about in the book, that’s the reference point I use is this movie called Billy Bathgate. And I know it’s like really obscure, but Dustin Hoffman was in it. Nicole Kenyon was in it. Uh, and Bruce Willis, like three stars were in it. Um, but basically Dustin Hoffman plays a gangster back in the day, Dutch Schultz.
And he’s got a little assistant named Billy Bathgate. He’s a kid, right? And Billy Bathgate is looking at Dutch Schultz enforcers, right? And they’re, they’re shooting, you know, at targets. Right. And one guy who’s played by Steve Buscemi. Wow. A lot of actors, cool actors in this movie. He’s hitting the target and hitting the head on every single shot, but he’s just taking his time.
Bang, bang. Right. And the other guy just takes two guns out as a, you know, like, and he’s
Kill everybody. Yeah.
The target, right? And so Dutch Schultz is like, Hey, like, which one’s better? Who’s better? And Billy Batkey is like, Oh, you know, this guy, because he hit the target exactly like all his shots got in one spot. And then Dutch Schultz is like, well, you know, it depends, right?
Like if you want to put a hit out on somebody, you want that guy, right? Cause he’s going to be really precise. But if there’s a big scrap where you got to like, just make things up on the fly, you want the guy who’s just like, because you know, he’s like in one second, two seconds, it’s all over,
Yeah, totally. Right. Yeah. And I love that idea. And the Fox being like the scrappy person that can just like improvise and be agile and just like make decisions very quickly.
right?
Where I imagine like, like the shark struggles with that,
Yeah. You want them to be your quarterback, a Fox. But you want the shark, you know, Michael Jordan’s a shark and generally basketball players and are better as sharks because, you know, they’ll go into the gym and, you know, work on their shot and take like 20, 000 shots. Right. And then they go out and they’re super precise and they’re intense and basketball tends to be a little bit more, uh, one sided, like focus on the one person where obviously football quarterback has to adjust and make up stuff on the fly.
So it’s kind of cool in that way where you can scout actual NFL players and go, okay, who, what position is good for what personality is good for what position, you know?
So, so I want to, I want to go through the other ones, but, but I am curious on that idea, like when you work with companies, are you helping them like build teams of different types? Cause I can see it being really useful from like a hiring perspective or just team comp
You know, I would love to do, I’ve never actually done that before. You know, like, I mean, I, I did that way back in the day when I was like an assistant scout master at a boy scout troop and I was making patrols based on my personality typing methodology. Um, in the past, no, when I was working with company, it was more like, okay, who do you got, who’s underneath you, like who’s working for you and then what are their personality types and how to fit better, um, that would be really interesting.
I would love to be able to like construct, you know, a team essentially based on their personalities. And I wonder. If it would work out theoretically, you know, or it’ll work out practically the way it works out. Theoretically,
Yeah, I’d be so curious because like, cause you’re saying, I imagine there’s like tasks that are better suited to hunters versus gatherers and things like that and trying to really like build the dream team for whatever the project is.
yeah, and just, it’s just really important for people to know their personality on at an individual level. Right? Like I’ve been telling this story quite a bit. Like my cousin’s kid just graduated from pharmacy school and I was like, Oh, like, so now what do you want to do with your life? Right. And he’s like, as long, it’s cool.
As long as I don’t have to be in the same place all day long. And I’m just like, that’s exactly what a pharmacist does. Gotta get that task. The task itself was gonna be so bad for him. He’s a shark. So he’s a hustler type, right? And I know when he joined or enrolled in pharmacy school, I was thinking, Oh, that is that good for his personality?
I don’t really know, but, um, it’s not none of my business. And now that he’s graduated, I’m like, wow. Okay. Well, you should have known that beforehand. So I recommended like maybe going into sales, pharmaceutical sales, cause that might be way better for a hustler, right? Like you can travel bounce around. So just knowing your personality type is just good because it’ll help you.
Maybe you decide what task and what job, uh, works better for your own values.
Totally. Totally. Yeah. And I think like the idea of like, you know, having your dream job, I think that died with my generation. Right? Cause like we realized that like work kind of sucks no matter what you do
Where are you? Millennial. That sounds like millennia. Okay. Okay.
Very millennial. Yeah. I think a lot of, right. A lot of times the message of like, live your dream and live your passion and change the world.
Right. And a lot of us just end up getting just regular ass jobs and we’re like, Oh shit.
Yeah. I’m in this cubicle just looking, you know, three walls, not even walls. Three, like, you know, dividers.
Yeah. It’s like, I’m not saving the planet. I’m just like doing spreadsheets, you know, making phone calls.
Yeah. I remember one time, that’s what one guy said to me once. He’s like, what are you looking for a job? I’m like, yeah. He’s like, do you want to be an accountant? Cause there’s always jobs. He’s he himself was an accountant. He’s like, we’re always looking for accountants and no offense. I mean, a lot of people are great at accounting, especially beavers, which are one of the gathers.
But for my personality type, God, that would be hell. That would be, I would rather just not have a job. You know?
Yeah. Yeah. But you can want that beaver person, right? You want that person that just like knows the rules, does it well, executes every time. Right. And it’s like helping you like avoid unnecessary risk.
Oh yeah, and there are people who like, like, that’s probably 12 percent of the population. And so it’s like, yeah, like, that’s great. Like, that’s great for them. And they shouldn’t be told, oh, you need to do something where you’re getting excitement and stuff, like, and bouncing around and traveling where they’d be like, well, I don’t really like to travel, you know, sorry.
I mean, maybe a little bit, but not necessarily for work. I kind of want something certain where I can go every day at this time. And I know what my job is and I’ll do it. You know,
Yeah, yeah. So, so you said you’re a baboon. Well, what, what does that under
uh, baboons are shamans.
uh, shamans? Okay.
So I think you might be a shaman. That’d be my guess, but you can tell me as I describe it, you know, you can tell me, Oh yeah, that’s fits or maybe not. So shamans are all, their, their value is self knowledge, right? So I call them shamans because if you had a shaman in a village, they would kind of be the soul of the village.
They would tell people, Oh, you know, it’s going to rain guys, like gatherers go harvest the crops, you know? So they would essentially be like the spiritual leaders, maybe not necessarily the logistical leader. And they might be the village chief, but they would be the shaman. Right. And. Um, I would separate those two, uh, factions, I guess, for lack of a better term, of shamans into like one prioritizes people and the other prioritizes principles, right?
So one, if your value, number one value is self knowledge, your own, and also helping people gain self knowledge for themselves, um, the people prioritizers would definitely fall into that, right? Where they’re like, they want to be around people, you know, they want to be like, so you’ll find them in organizations like the ministry, psych, psychiatrics.
mental health, education, like those, the only organization you probably won’t find them in is probably the military. There’s not gonna be a lot of shamans in the military, unless they’re a chaplain, um, just because of the chain of command and the structure might be a little, they might chafe at that. So, um, but yeah, you’ll find a lot of pandas and a lot of dolphins.
Those are the two animals that prioritize people, um, under the, like in organizations where they can work with those people. Um,
Okay. Yeah.
a baboon and humpback whales. They would be on the principal side and that would mean that they prioritize their morale and principles above all.
So if the example I give in the book is let’s say you’re a teacher, you’re a shaman teacher and the principal comes up to you and says, Hey, I love the curriculum that you’re doing. It’s really cool. It’s different. And you can’t do that because it’s against the rules and it’s not, you’re not following proper procedure.
So I think pandas and dolphins, since they prioritize people would be like, you know, I really liked this and I value this quite a bit, but if I get fired, which is the implication from this principle, then I’m not going to be around people to help them. So they’re a lot more pragmatic and they would kind of assimilate their curriculum to fit.
They would do their best to assimilate it to the structure. Um, that the rules, right? Like, so in a sense they might be giving up a lot of their own principles for, to help the people. Baboons and humpback whales. will just say, screw it, fuck that. Like I’m just going to do what I do, you know, and you can do what you want to do with it, you know?
And so they will just do it and they might get fired. So obviously there are pros and cons to each, right? The bab, uh, the pandas and dolphins sometimes feel like maybe insecure. Cause they’re like, Oh, did I give up myself? Did I like, you know, like capitulate? Um, so that makes them feel kind of crappy and they might seem a little weak, but then they’re also pragmatic because they get to be there.
Baboons and humpback whales look really courageous and valiant. But they’re not there, you know, they get fired. So those are the, those are the breaks, right?
Yeah. I, I think I’m on the principal side. Cause when you said that, I was like, oh, just quit, just quit immediately and just like start your own school. Right. Which is
your own school. It’s like, yeah, just, you know, well, you might be a baboon too, unless you’re a humpback whale, but you know, that, that’s the, those are the two sides. Yeah. They’re just like, have you seen dead poet society?
yes.
Oh, okay. Well, that teacher clearly is a baboon, Robin Williams, baboon.
And that’s a, that’s a really good movie for shamans. It’s not particularly generous to gatherers, um, but for shamans, every shaman should watch that because they can be like, oh, okay. Like, cause most of the, a lot of the kids that he’s working with, at least a couple of them are shaman types as well. Not exactly like him.
Yeah. Like, Ethan Hawke’s character would be a humpback whale, you know, he’s a little bit more shy, and then, but then when he does something, he breaks out, and he does, at the end, sacrifice himself to a certain extent on his principles. Um, but yeah, that’s a perfect movie for, to see that kind of methodology of, the baboon methodology of just saying, screw it, I’m gonna do what I want.
so, so that’s the, that’s the baboon marker. Is that just like going rogue and just doing whatever you need to,
yeah, they’re like, when I compare the baboon and the humpback whale, I would say, like, the baboon is the voice of a community, and the humpback whale is the soul.
Okay.
So like, yeah, so they’re great at voicing the principles of whatever they believe. Of course their weaknesses, they love principles so much and they can get into like one idea, but then they might really get into this idea and it’s just like jump ship.
They’re just like, Oh, this is a really cool, like, Oh wait, this is also really cool. And then they get really into this, like just get really into things very quickly. And I wouldn’t say they change sides, but they might just be like, Oh look, there’s a frisbee. Like if philosophies were frisbees, they would be a dog.
They’d just be like, Oh, like, let me follow that one and see how that works. You know? So that would be their weakness. Of course. Their strength is like vocalizing whatever their opinions are very well and articulately and powerfully.
Okay. So what are some baboon moments that you’ve had in your life? Yeah.
getting in trouble for sure. Uh, you know, like I remember this is a random story and I know it’s the first one that pops in my head. I was in English class in high school, AP English Lit, which sounds like really academic and it was kind of a crappy course because, well, because it had a crappy teacher.
And this teacher was definitely one of those, the worst part of being a gatherer, right? Like she was just like, okay, this is structure. This is what makes you feel important. I’m just going to like go in all in on that. And so you’d make kids take a test to get into the class, which I think was bullshit, but she would.
So that’s all those kids who got into the class thought they were like super smart because like, Oh, we had to take a test to get into this class. We’re like the elite, you know, and she loved that. So anyway, I would, I thought her tests were total crap because her tests were really like about like what, detail, what small detail than each of the books that we’re reading, which I was not into.
So I would send in my test blank. I was just like, here, blank test, blank test. And then eventually she, yeah, she eventually called me in and I was like, What’s going on here? I noticed you’re not writing the answers. Is this difficult for you? And I was like, no, I just don’t like the questions. And so I kind of rebelled a little bit.
She failed me actually. Um, but I guess the other day, you know, you gotta do what you have to do, I guess. I mean, I wouldn’t recommend, you know, my own students that I coach now to do that, but that was probably the purest form of my, uh, my, my baboon ness, um, in action.
Yeah. I think when I think about when I think of, yeah, like entrepreneurs, right. It’s like the idea of like, I’m going to like bring this thing into the world and it might, it doesn’t fit with anything yet. Right. It’s a new idea and kind of moving through whatever kind of like structure is there. Right.
It’s going through and bucking the trends.
Yeah. As opposed to like the other two, which will, you’ll get a, like, you’ll Baboons will get along with other shamans really well, but yeah, those other two might like to, or they might be better students. Like dolphins and pandas. I generally ask that question. I try to figure out, are you a dolphin panda or baboon humpback whale?
Are you, I always ask, were you a good student? And I just look for the reaction. And generally if people are slow or like, ah, like think about it. And then I’m like, okay, you’re not. Dolphins and pandas are generally good students, and even if they weren’t great students, they enjoyed school. The idea of being around people, um, and that structure they like.
Yeah. I think my, um, my wife is on that side. She’s also in the mental health profession and she’s just very much like connecting, wants to help, wants to heal, all that kind of stuff. I, I like that, but my company is more about like instilling principles and like helping people grow less than like getting really super deep
Well, you’re a paladin, you’re a crusader, right? humpback whales tend to be more on the crusading side. Like, we’re like, okay, what’s the project? What’s the fight now? Okay, it’s over? Okay, what’s the fight now? Like, we’ll tend to bounce as opposed to like, Fitting into a particular organization,
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So that tracks over to our last one, the, uh, the Smiths
Smiths always left for last, you know, they get, they have a lot of huge impact though on the world in terms of like, when you look at like people who’ve like, at least, especially he’s a tech, right? So Smith’s value information. I used to say knowledge and I stopped saying that because everyone’s like, Oh, I value knowledge.
And I’m like, okay, not as much as they do. Um, so now I say information. Cause that’s like a less sexier word, you know, Um, and to explain that, like in terms of how much they value information, I had a Smith tell me she would go into a burning building, like a burning library to rescue a book, even if her life was in jeopardy.
Um, if she thought that that book was the last book of its kind in existence, she’s like, I, I would totally rescue it. I’m like, wow, even if you, there’s a chance you die. She’s like, well, yeah, but that’s how much, you know, that’s, whereas you tell that to a gather, they would be like, that is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.
Like they would just not, feel the same way. And that’s kind of cool, right? Like it’s interesting to see the different perspectives. I don’t want to say every smith would run into a burning building, but they might think about it. They might be like, Hmm, let me think about that first. Um, so yeah, that’s how much they value information.
Um, and because they value information, we can separate them into two categories. One meaning the killer whales and the spiders, and they value information that is, can be useful. They’re like, no, I want to know stuff so I can use it and put into practice and like, you know, get something out of it. So they are, they’re very ambitious types.
Um, the chimpanzees and the owls, not to say they’re not ambitious, but they kind of just like information for its own sake. They’re just like, oh, that’s cool. Like, you know, I don’t know, this is kind of fun. And, and I guess they would be your nerd, you know? Um, and so they, they’re great at research, right?
Because they’re constantly going to like be working, not necessarily because the information they’re finding is useful to them, but The information is just cool. But what we’ve often found is with that mentality, you often find information that really is useful, right? Because you’re constantly just pouring through everything.
Um, so like on that side, like chimpanzees and owls, that’s where you find a lot of inventors or people produce things like, like, like Elon Musk would be a chimpanzee or this is a fictional character, but iron man would be a chimpanzee, right? You can constantly see them go. I just like to be cool stuff and whether it works or not, I don’t know, but I’ll see, look, I’m going to put like a, I’m going to put a pinwheel on the car.
Oh yeah. That’s kind of lame. You know, they might have like 999 bad ideas, right? But the one idea that they do is like, Oh, let me put a phone, or let me put a computer into a phone. That’d be kind of cool, right? And, you know, everyone’s saying, That’s kind of stupid. Why would you do that? We already have laptops.
And then, you know, now, Everyone’s carrying a computer in their phone, right? So.
So it’s kind of like it’s like Fox mentality, but it’s I’m hearing it’s like more inventive and it’s more like playful almost or just like like not really like whereas I imagine a Fox is like seeking an outcome, right? This sounds like the the chimpanzee is more like exploring and discovering and just like kind of yeah, just for the thrill of creation.
Is that a fair assessment?
yeah, foxes are like, cool. Chimpanzees are cool nerds.
Right? Okay.
Game of Thrones. I use Game of Thrones a lot as a reference point. Oh, you know, if you just took, this would be easy. This is easy because we took the Lannister brothers, Jamie and Tyrion. You know, when is the chimpanzee? Would you, you got to guess. Yeah. Right. And, but they, they get along, right. You can, and they’re both pretty funny. Like they’re, they’re both clever and they’re both like chimpanzees, foxes, and baboons often seem similar because we’re kind of jokey and we’ll be somewhat clever and, and kind of free flowing, but that’s, once again, the value is so different, right?
You said the fox is like, kind of like, what do I want out of this? Am I getting something else? Enjoyment? Like, you know, so we see that when we watch game of thrones, like sometimes Jamie doesn’t understand why Tyrion is like so focused, like mentally on something. He’s like, I don’t understand. It’s not a big deal.
But of course, Tyrion’s a chimpanzee. It’s a big deal to him. He likes ideas, right? He kind of fixates on them, you know, and that’s good for him. And maybe not so good for Jamie. Right. And vice versa.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I follow that. And then the final group.
Uh, oh, so the, on the other side, so the, uh, killer whales and, um, spiders, they are, yeah, so yeah, they’re the ones who are like, um, they want information for impact. And I killer whales, I always call like the CEO type. So you just think about them in terms of information and how they use that information. Um, killer whales are strategic.
All smiths are strategic, but killer whales are more so. And they are, um, I call them in the book concurrent planners versus the spiders are contingency planners. So that would just mean the killer whales like, okay, you do this, you do this, you do this, you do this. And we’re all going to do it at the same time.
We’re all going to do in conjunction and we’re going to destroy whoever it gets, you know? And, uh, spiders are more like, okay, if this happens, this is what we’re going to do. But if this happens, this is what we’re going to do. And then it’s like an algorithm, right? Okay. Now that when we do this and if this happens, then this is what we’re going to do.
Like They have this whole algorithmic plan for, you know, contingency. So, um, in,
hmm. Anxiety.
yeah, like it would be like, uh, in Game of Thrones, the difference between Tywin Lannister, who’s a concurrent planner and Littlefinger, who’s a contingency.
hmm. Mm
Um, and for those non Game of Thrones fans out there, maybe like Macbeth, the play Macbeth, that’s really nerdy.
Wow. I’m bringing up the AP literature already. Um, like, yeah, Macbeth would be the killer whale, right? He’s like, got the plan and he just goes for it. But Lady Macbeth would be the spider behind the scenes, kind of like spinning her webs. Right.
Just making sure that nothing goes wrong. Right. And keeping things on the, on the track.
Right. But they don’t like to be the center of attention. They’re definitely where killer whales are like, yeah, put me in the front. I don’t mind. I’m going to go
They want to be like the fighter pilot, right. They want to be the vanguard.
Yeah. They’re like the, the killer whale will stab you in the front. The spider will stab you in the back.
But they’re both stabbing. They both got
Yeah. They both got knives though.
No, they definitely, they both got knives, but you might not think the spider has a knife where the killer whale was like, here’s my knife. See it. Look, watch, watch. This is going in, you know?
Well, what’s not a great stab? Perfectly executed.
yeah, and then they’ll tell you about it, too. They’re, uh, very forceful. By the way, I love killer whales, so it might sound like I’m picking on them.
Um, my ex girlfriend was a killer whale. We still get along. They’re very aggressive. I think of Hermione Granger. She’s like the perfect example of a killer whale. Right? You know, you think she’s a good student, but she’s not really. She, she does it for a purpose, but she breaks the rules all the time, as long as it serves her purpose.
Right? So killer whales and spiders are by far the best students, especially when they get into the college level. Um, just because, you know, they obviously they prize information and how to use it well and they’re ambitious. So those three things make them great students and spiders are probably a little bit better than killer whales.
But for the most part, those two, if you, if you have someone who’s like a great student and proud of it and by great student, I mean, like getting A’s on tests, not just like in elementary school, but like at the college level, probably one of those two.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I, I, I love this. I love this theory. I love that, that I think it’s like super relatable. I think it’s really great to like break it down and make it like accessible for people. Um, and we have your book, the link to that will be in the show notes. Uh, but I’m also curious for you, like what applications, I mean, we’ve talked about the business corporate application, but what other applications do you think there are to this?
I mean, everyone, I mean, the number one thing actually, even if you’re in a business setting, the number one thing people ask is, okay, so who should I hook up with that? Like, who should I be banging basically? And I’m like, whoa, okay. Like, that’s like, and it’s a fun thing. Like who doesn’t like that? Who doesn’t do the horoscopes?
It’s like, I’m a cancer and I go well with whatever, you know, and people are into that. Um, I always play it safe and just say, look, you know, like I don’t believe in soulmates, but I do think that the personality types are consistent. So if you are, let’s say a Fox. and you are going out with a killer whale, then the ways you conflict will be very consistent to other killer whale fox relationships.
And the ways that you get along will also be similar. So like, if I could just use two people that probably everybody knows, like the Clintons, you know, Clinton, Bill Clinton is clearly a fox. And Hillary is probably a killer whale. And you can see that Hershey’s really ambitious, maybe not necessarily the friendliest and the funniest where Bill is, you know, he’s so smooth.
He’s got that cool. Like I’m a Fox. I’m cool kind of guy, you know, and you, but you can see them kind of like where the conflict would rise. Like a killer whale might think that the Fox doesn’t have him lacks ambition, or it may be a little too unserious. And the Fox might think that the killer whale is just not as fun as they should be.
And I think that’s going to be pretty consistent. All the way through, like if you know Fox and you know Killer Whale and you know, that’s probably how they’re going to relate to, um, so yeah, that was a long way of saying, I don’t believe in soulmates, but if you, you’re going to conflict a certain level and you have to be okay with that, if you’re not, then you probably should find someone else, right?
Because that conflict is not going to go away.
Yeah, that’s interesting. I want to unpack that. Cause that’s, that’s my next question is like, can people flex out of their personality types or do you find that it’s like more or less containing and rigid,
You know, I, I love that question because I always say that people can’t change and I know people hate that line, but I, what I, what I modified say, you know, people can’t change because we grow. Right. And I think, you know, that kind of means we’re changing, but we’re growing into better or worse versions of ourselves, you know, but I don’t, I think I always say like dogs don’t, or puppies don’t become cats.
They become dogs. Right. And I think if you try to become something or not, and without having a really secure idea of who you are, then I think that’s pretty unhealthy, you know, at the end of the day. But I do think like, it’s really good to know Who you are as an anchor and I want to say, find your anchor.
Who are you? So that you’re not in danger of becoming someone else. And then once you :do, then, like you said, you can flex and like, kind of go, Oh, you know, but my type is really bad at this. So maybe I should take a little bit from this other personality type and what they’re doing. It doesn’t mean I’m going to value things like they do, but at the very least I can take some of the things they’re doing for the context that I’m in, because it’s going to help me, you know, baboons.
We’re not really great at doing things that we don’t like to do. My brother likes to say that, you know, if it takes longer than 15 minutes and I don’t want to do it, I’m probably not going to do it. You know, but that’s pretty bad when you have to do taxes and things like that. So,
know, there’s a lot of mandatory shit out there.
right, exactly. So I think for me, part of my growth was like figuring out, okay, how do I navigate the things I don’t want to do taxes?
Okay. At least I can hire someone to do taxes and just email them stuff. But even like finishing things, I think sometimes baboons were, especially when we’re younger, we’re not always the best at finishing things. Cause we’re like, Oh, this is so fun. Let me do it. Oh, but this is really cool too. Let me do this.
And then we bounce around. And I think just being conscious of that tells me like, okay, I gotta like borrow from other types that are good at finishing things so I can finish at least like 30% of the things that I start, you know?
Yeah, I think I’m very similar. I mean, so much of my like self development has been learning discipline, frankly, right. And like dealing with being impatient. Like, I think that’s like my main. Flaws. I’m very impatient. Maybe it’s, it is that baboon type where it’s like, I will deep dive on something and just like go all the way.
And then when I’m done, I’ll done. I’ll never touch it again. Right. But like, I don’t have that like discipline just like, keep going on the treadmill or just grinding or any of that kind
Oh, a hundred percent. Like the, the baboon type in Game of Thrones is Denarius Arian. Right. And you know, I mean, everyone’s like, oh, you just picked a cool person. You know, baboons are not always the cool character. Just in Game of Thrones, we get the cool character, but lately I love, there’s a line there where the guy says like, what are you gonna do now?
You’re just gonna sit on the throne like you’re a conqueror. You don’t sit on thrones. Like they’re not, we’re not particularly good at running a kingdom. Oftentimes we get bored, but conquering is fun. Right? Because it’s like, okay, I got this purpose. I got this thing that I really believe in. I’m going to go all out on it.
But then of course the hangover is it’s like, okay, now, now that it’s done, like, what do I do now? Uh, let me find someone else to take care of this and let me go on to something else. Right? Like that’s the baboon in us. But I think completing those tasks is important because sometimes you don’t always complete the task.
Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And there’s some things like you said, like, you know, paying taxes or like going to the gym or having a diet where like discipline, like you just need that. You just need to like. Get used to the slow grind. And those have been always more challenging for me. It’s those types of things,
Yeah. And I said, yeah, I think baboons. Yeah. Shamans, we like people. So I always think like if I have to do something like that, like I have to go to the gym, it’s gonna be hard for me to go by myself, but find a friend, you know, and that’ll be fine. And then you can, you know, like talk shit about things and talk about stuff you like while you’re working out.
And then it just doesn’t feel like you’re working out as much. So
Yeah. So, and that’s a key point, right? It’s like knowing your personality and knowing, yeah, how to supplement that when you do have to interact with the world, because like you’re saying, and I, and I agree, it’s like, it’s a gather a world out there, right? Gather a sub hunter, right? World out there. So if you’re a shaman or a Smith, you know, specifically learning strategies to exist in a culture that heavily favors another personality type.
Oh,
see shamans and smiths much. They see hunters for sure. Cause they’re like a third of the population. They’re generally like, Oh, that person who I disagree with, but they’re kind of cool and they have a lot of fun. So I’m not. Opposed to them and I would like to marry them oftentimes gatherers I mean, that’s the most common coupling is a gatherer and hunter because their strengths complements each other very well But they’re not exactly the same because you generally if you have two people that are really similar You’re gonna have a lot of conflict.
That’s tough to deal with But yeah, they don’t really even see shamans and Smith. They’re just like who are these weird versions of us, you know They need to like change, you know, so it can be difficult And I work with a lot of students and like young students. Like I generally start my students that I coach around like 11 or 12.
And so that’s where I, I can be at least very beneficial in terms of figuring out what they are and how to make them, like you said, grow and flex versus changing and becoming someone different.
Yeah. Well, so as we’re moving toward the end here, I’m curious, like, where do you go with this? I mean, you got the book, right? You’re doing like some of this coaching, like what’s, what’s next for you?
You know, I would love to, I mean, I have the second book planned out, um, if my publisher and wants to publish it and my agent wants to sell it for me. Um, But it’s clearly like the one that everyone asks people want a romance book because my book is
the dating version of it? It’s so good. It’s a dating version of the
it’s like this dating version love version romance version with a big heart and an all in red No, because my book is mainly it’s not it is prescriptive to a certain extent But my book teaches people to be the test right because you know I have a test on my website and I think that is my CTA and I encourage everyone to take it However, you know, at the end of the day, tests are just, you know, cookie cutter things that don’t always work for everyone.
Um, so the book in and of itself teaches people the methodology and breaks down everything that I broke down here, but a little bit more detailed. Um, so in a sense, once you read the book and then you’ll know how to read people better. And once you do that, then I think the prescriptive stuff can be really helpful.
I think sometimes if you get the diagnosis wrong, then the treatment can be pretty harmful. So that’s why I focused mainly on a book that helps people diagnose people’s personality types. And so I’d love to do a more prescriptive one saying, okay, now that you know, you are a fox or a, a beaver, you know, and you’re with this type, or maybe you should be looking for these types because of these certain things.
I think that would be probably fun. Everyone asks about that. It’s like, okay, like write a book about who I should hook up with, you know? So.
I think there’s a ton of value in that, right? It’s like, it’s like now what do you do about it, right? Whether it be relationships or I can imagine as a parenting book too, right? Or like you said, team dynamics, you know, how do you talk to people that are different from you?
Right. And you know, I would love to, I mean, the parenting one and the, I would be able to do a lot more from my own professional experience. Right. Because I’ve worked with a lot of students and a lot of parents, the romance, I don’t, I don’t have any experience, professional experience with romantic counseling.
So I’d have to like, I’d have to do some research and talk to people and you know, maybe you get like a coauthor for that, even though, I mean, obviously personally, I have it and I know the methodology really well, but definitely parenting and working with kids. Like that is something that I think a lot of parents are really into too.
When I used to teach my teachers this. When I own my education company, those are the two questions people would ask who I should hook up with and starting to relate things to their significant other or relating things to their kids or their parents, right? They’re like, Oh, no wonder I’m so screwed up because my mom or dad did this and they were probably this type and I’m like this type and, or no wonder why I hate this kid more than I like, or I hate the other kid because they’re like this and you know,
Yeah. And we’ll hit super helpful because it makes it so less personal. Right. If it’s just like, if it’s like, you know, a beaver and a chimpanzee having an argument, it’s so much better than like you and your dad fighting. Right. Like I think it lets people get like a handle on it and really understand what’s happening.
yeah. When talking to people, I’m always like, once, once you say, Oh, you’re probably an elephant, let’s say, and then you just start talking about elephant. And talk about their strengths, which everybody loves, but also weaknesses, which are helpful, but not everybody loves. But then in a weird way, they don’t see it as you making a judgment on them or like observing their weaknesses.
You’re observing an elephant’s weaknesses, theoretically, even though essentially that’s what you’re telling them is these are your personal weaknesses.
helps a ton because you guys have those hard conversations without people’s hurt feelings getting hurt as
Oh yeah, yeah, for sure.
Well, fantastic. Well, Eric, thank you so much for being on the show. Um, so we’ll have a link to the book in the show notes. We’ll also have a cta, but eric, where can people find you online if they want to learn more about you and about This personality theory
So, um, my website, that’s not the website where the test is, strangely enough, but my website for my coaching and my creative space, you can find it all under project utopia and utopia, like why are you like YouTube? Um, and then you can find me on Instagram, the power of personality. I’m not huge on social media, so, uh, you know, but find me on Instagram anyway, at, at the power of personality
Great. Yeah. Check them out and follow it. It sounds to be super useful whether you’re, you know, a parent, uh, or you’re a counselor, you know, a lot of counselors listen to this show, um, or you’re just someone looking to hook up with an animal that fits your personality.
all of the above. You can be a parent counselor and looking to hook up, you know. And then it
that’s true. You can have the trifecta and then if that’s you, if you’re listening and that’s you just buy this book, you get the book, because I think it’s going to answer a lot of the questions that you have.
Yes. Ha
Yeah, so everything again. Thank you so much for joining us and listeners. Thank you for tuning into the episode of the men’s therapy podcast.
We will see you next week with another episode.
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