Discover how dog psychology can lead to anxiety relief and personal growth. Brady Foulk discusses positive reinforcement and mindfulness for dogs and people.
Today’s episode of the Men’s Therapy Podcast features Brady Foulk. He is an innovative dog trainer revolutionizing our relationship with our four-legged friends. Foulk’s journey into dog training began with a personal challenge. It was a mischievous puppy that seemed impervious to traditional training methods. “I made a promise to myself that I wouldn’t give him up,” Foulk recalls, reflecting on his early struggles. “Like I would do whatever it takes to find the trainers. And to find the thing that’s aligned with me of who I am and what I wanted to train.”
This commitment led Foulk to discover a unique approach to dog training. It not only transformed his relationship with his pet. But also offered profound insights into human behaviour, emotional support, and personal development. Foulk explains, “I empower puppies, dogs, and their owners. To have more success at home and around town while having fun while playing games.” Brady Foulk’s methods emphasize positive reinforcement and mindfulness. These techniques extend beyond pet training. They offer lessons for anxiety relief, leadership, and parenting. His approach provides valuable insights into various aspects of life.
Brady Foulk roots his dog training approach in understanding canine psychology. He emphasizes clear communication and positive reinforcement. He avoids using intimidation or bribery. “Positive is not permissive,” Foulk states, addressing a common misconception about his methods. “There’s still rules and routines.”
Foulk’s training philosophy centres on three key pillars:
Foulk helps dogs and their owners build strong communication. This foundation fosters mutual understanding. This approach improves the dog’s behaviour and enhances the owner’s leadership skills. It also boosts the owner’s emotional intelligence.
Foulk’s work is intriguing because it applies dog training principles to human relationships. This approach is particularly useful in parenting and leadership. It shows how skills learned with dogs can benefit interactions with people. “If you can recognize your patterns and again, find this stimulus gap and response. And that’s all a pattern is, is there something that triggers you. And then there’s a response and there’s a consequence,” Foulk explains.
This pattern recognition is crucial in both dog training and human interactions. Understanding these patterns helps people improve their responses and relationships.
Foulk’s methods have shown remarkable potential for anxiety relief. They work not only for dogs but for their human companions as well. He describes how to train dogs to provide emotional support. “I train a lot of dogs only to lick people’s hands when they start feeling anxiety, and dogs can smell anxiety.”
This support can help people with anxiety or PTSD. Foulk is partnering with organizations to provide emotional support animals to veterans. He focuses on the therapeutic potential of the human-canine bond.
The process of training a dog can also be a powerful tool for personal growth and mindfulness. Foulk highlights that caring for an animal helps people focus beyond themselves. This is crucial for overcoming suffering and achieving personal development.
“As soon as you can start getting your mind on like, what does this animal need? What do other people need? You get out of suffering because you’re thinking bigger than yourself,” Foulk explains. This shift in focus can be transformative. It can help individuals develop greater empathy, patience, and self-awareness.
Brady Foulk’s innovative approach to dog training offers far more than well-behaved pets. Understanding dog psychology provides insights into personal behaviour. It helps develop stronger leadership skills and effective tools for anxiety relief. Foulk’s methods improve relationships between dog owners and their pets. They also offer valuable insights for personal growth and mindfulness. His approach highlights the link between animal behaviour and human psychology.
Brady Foulk, a pioneering dog trainer, has transformed canine psychology and behaviour modification. His unique approach has revolutionized the field. Foulk has a background in personal development and a passion for animal welfare. He developed a training method that transforms dogs which It also enhances the lives of their human companions.
Foulk’s journey into dog training began with his challenges as a pet owner. It started with him training a very difficult puppy. This experience led him to explore innovative training techniques. He developed a system based on positive reinforcement and clear communication. It fosters mutual understanding between dogs and their owners. His approach goes beyond traditional obedience training. It incorporates elements of mindfulness, emotional intelligence, and leadership development.
Today, Foulk is a respected dog trainer. He is also a thought leader in animal-assisted therapy and personal growth. He partners with organizations to provide trained emotional support animals to veterans. His work highlights the impact of the human-animal bond on mental health. This partnership showcases the benefits for veterans’ well-being. Foulk shares his insights through training programs, online courses, and public speaking. He shows how dog psychology principles apply to human relationships with a major focus on personal development and anxiety relief.
New Direction Dog Training (website)
The Men’s Therapy Podcast is a revolutionary platform devoted to addressing the particular mental health issues encountered by men. Hosted by Marc Azoulay, the podcast addresses a wide range of critical topics such as grief, career transitions and personal growth. Every episode will offer you insightful conversations and useful coping mechanisms to guide you through life. Join the community and start your journey towards becoming a better man!
menstherapy.online/mens-therapy-podcast
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welcome back to the show I’m your host Mark azoulay and I’m here with the very special episode with Philip botha he is a
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coach uh that works on culture development healthy workplaces um he’s also a senior people scientist where he
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helps to figure out Trends um to help people I guess basically just perform better at their job and he’s a long-term
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client of men’s therapy online so I’m excited to be able to work with Philip in this capacity um kind of get to know
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you in another you know Avenue and I’m sure this conversation will blend both personal and professional so philli
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welcome to the show thanks Mark good to be here yeah thanks for having me looking forward to our chat yeah so we
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always start the first segment is kind of a bio of who you are how you got here and how you got into this work so you
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can let the people know like why people focused work why organizational
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development it’s it’s a great question and uh you know I’m hesitant to call myself an
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expert on anything but I think I have a journey and a story to share I mean I’ve always been curious about people like why they do what they do um I back in
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the day I thought about studying psychology you know like like you’re doing right now but I only knew Clinical Psychology and I actually thought well I
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actually don’t want to sit and listen to people’s problems all day right so I thought like what’s my second engn I got into software engineering and that took
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me down a path that actually inevitably led me back to people uh because I I mean my passion has always been just
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helping individual grow help them set up to do their best work and getting teams to work together really well um so
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that’s kind of the round about about story where today I went from software engineering to HR Ro for like five years
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and now kind of out on my own doing consulting work and really getting out of bed in the mornings like yes I get to
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do what I’m passionate about yeah I think it’s so critical right because you know most people have jobs right and
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most people spend a ton of time at their job and a lot of jobs are toxic so I’m curious as coming up like what are some
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toxic patterns that you saw in the workplaces where you were an engineer yeah I mean honestly like Mark I
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actually started noticing these patterns uh as a kid as like my mom’s also in the
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in the software engineering side and and Technology side and she would come home just overworked unhappy stressed and I
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was always aware of like that doesn’t look fun I don’t want that for myself and then I started having that lived
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experience in the in the software space and the pattern I noticed is really how
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people show up at home is how they show up at work right is it insecurities is how they have difficult conversations
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what triggers them how to handle the triggers you know are they able to have vulnerable conversations is it is there
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the organizational space you know and safety to have that conversation and honestly I mean from the sports field to
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engineering teams companies any team really like those patterns are the same and you’re not going to be effective and
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successful a winning team if you don’t really learn how to work together as cliche as that is that is what it comes
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down to yeah what were some of the issues that you had as you were entering the workplace cuz I agree right there is
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like that combination of personal and professional it’s like of course we’re the same person that we are in our
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personal life and our professional life so what are some challenges that you have to overcome to be a more effective
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leader myself wow um I think key to that was understanding
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what win-win looks like you know I we were just talking about this earlier right like I recommend books like same
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five or six books to people every week and the book had really actually again my mom played a big role in my life um
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gave me this book called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People and one of the habits is um uh seek seek to
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understand but also win-win you know find a win-win those two principles very simply that’s was a game Cher for me
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like really using that kind of people mindset and trying to put myself in the other person’s shoes like what what’s
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important to them what you know what would what might a reasonable person want from this situation like if I come
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in from a place with judgment you know this person is just being difficult or they don’t want to work with me or just
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being selfish like I’m not really going to be able to able to empathize them so I think empathy in the workplace is a
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biggie for a healthy organization uh and it starts one-on-one right it’s like actually start yourself and then
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oneon-one relationships like and trying to put your own defenses defenses down and then putting yourself in the shoes
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with the other person like and asking them like be curious what’s going on for you what is important and this conflict
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we’re having what are you trying to get out of and and then that’s where the light bulb moments aha moments and then
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I started mastering that from an individual perspective I started mastering that as a leader how to bring that out of my team and then later start
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teaching team members 360 like peerto peer how to you have these you know crucial conversations and absolute Game
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Changer yeah I I think conflict is so critical and it’s it’s such a thing that so many men struggle with which is wild
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right because I think when you think of like the man that needs therapy right it’s often this like Bully person right
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this guy who’s like really combative and is like bulldozing people and you know has like a violent past or whatever
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right but like what I see often is I think what you’re touching into is like this nice guy archetype which I have
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been right of like very conflict avoidant you know like often really struggles with conflict or struggles
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even knowing what their needs are and it kind of comes out sideways right as like you know kind of clumsy oh it’s like I I
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just want you to go away right versus like maybe the need is like oh I just need to be heard and have more respect in our conversations or something
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exactly I think that that especially from a a guy’s perspective right is that I think this cognitive dissonance we
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have uh because of what Society tells us like you don’t bring emotions into the workplace like you got to you got to
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shut that stuff up right um and actually that’s where EQ comes in emotional intelligence right is be aware what’s
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going on for myself and exploring that first and that’s kind of a big thing I do in my coaching work is well I started
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awareness you know well start of transformation what are you trying to change where do you want to go and then start of view where you at versus always
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pointing to the other person MH uh so emotions is okay there’s a saying we have in the in the kind of culture
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building space is that uh emotions aren’t noise they’re data MH like it’s a
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it’s it doesn’t mean you have to be re reactive but you need to be aware what’s going on for you so you can navigate
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that constructively so I think and that’s the big was like a light bulb moment for me it’s like it’s not this
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black and white leave emotions at H it’s like was that TV show on Apple called Severance right you don’t sever your
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your your your rest of yourself in coming to work Philip right Philip and work Philip is actually the same person
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and that was that’s so freeing a lot of way and if you can create an environment culture where that is okay it doesn’t
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mean everyone’s running around emotionally just reacting it’s like we make space for that like talk to your team your peer and your team or someone
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has reports you like hey what’s going on you let’s just put work aside say what’s going on where you at and just that proc
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say like opens people up and you know um brings their defenses down and they start feeling psychologically safe is a
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little key word we word we throw around a lot it just means like you feel okay with being yourself and being okay in
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the workplace and from there you can do a lot do a lot yeah and I think it builds loyalty to a workplace right of
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that like sees them as a whole person versus that what their role is and I think what you’re talking about I want
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to dig into a more of this Paradigm Shift around emotions you know versus emotions being an obstacle versus like
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you said being data so so I’m curious if you were dig into that idea what type of information can you get from the
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emotional state of an organization what what kind of you know actionables could come from those
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data I mean so so much and there’s various ways to capture that data a lot
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of companies do uh it’s called engage um engagement surveys and it’s very much a
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sentiment pulse like how people feeling in general about topics even that’s at an aggregate level that’s really
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effective and there um you can understand how people see leadership development opportunities like uh their
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growth opportunity at company which connects your retention um uh do they feel they’re equipped to do their work
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right those all kind of feelings and senses you’re not asking about specific tools just as a general sentiment and you can kind of track it per team per
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department overall and realize okay I need to prioritize this we need to spend time because you can spend time on so
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many things in a company that that kind of survey at a organizational level helps you zoom into where where should I
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spend my efforts and the I mean the business benefits um we you know which
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we should talk about which is kind of like an obvious outcome but it’s like yeah you keep get to keep your people longer they don’t uh you minimize
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retention that’s a big savings they more engage they give discretionary effort like they go above and beyond just
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enough to not to get fired that kind of mindset um and you can also take a layer
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deeper that’s kind of the win-win and that’s where kind of leadership coaching comes in it’s like how do you have those conversation at one-onone level and you
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can really customize for every person on your team what’s what is going on for
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them like do they need some are they going through tough period at home and their work is suffering and that’s kind
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of like a downward spiral in a lot of ways unless what guess what team can rally leaders can support but they
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unless you have that conversation you won’t know so again that’s kind of a a long-term investment in that
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relationship that retains people they do better work they’re more committed you know kind of win-win all around yeah as
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you’re talking I’m hearing it’s like instilling curiosity really right to like actually being interested in the
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people around you how do you how do you instill that how do you help people really see their work as more than just
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a paycheck that’s a that’s a toughy um I
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think as my perspective and there different views on this is like intrinsic motivation is as hard it’s not
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really possible to instill it’s uh it’s possible to draw out M so draw out
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there’s this another book that I recommend to managers all the time it’s called Uh First Break All the Rules it’s
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written by G Gallup organization Marcus pcking and so on and one of the key takeaways from that book is uh don’t is
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to basically lead people manage People based on their strengths their passions uh and not focus so much on the
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weaknesses because just bringing out their strengths is hard enough but the benefits exponential
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so if you create that environment where um I’m
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sorry actually lost my train of thought here a little bit mark what was the initial question oh how do instill curiosity in the workplace and having
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people actually be interested and ultimately care about each other like it it really thanks to that it really
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starts from the interview process being curious there yeah like understanding what you’re looking for What’s the culture how are we going to lead in our
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teams uh and then being curious from that process and getting people that uh
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not just have the skills but can also align with and will work well in in in your company your team and then from
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there you carry that same kind of mindset over to a leadership perspective um and being and being curious about
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what drives them right uh and and just bringing it out because if people aren’t
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motivated in first place their passions aren’t being triggered you’re not going to really be able to install that right
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and I think people will leave because they feel like they’re not important you know or they feel like they’re replaceable which nobody wants to feel
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feel that way MH mhm exactly yeah yeah yeah you know you you talk about
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conflict right and I think we’re kind of dancing around this topic of what a good conflict looks like how would you
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describe that to our listeners of of how do you have a conflict in a workplace that doesn’t result in them losing their
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job it’s it’s it is definitely challenging this multi-layered actually
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had a Coaching Station early this morning uh where very mature experience in individual needing to have a
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conversation with a manager and it’s just so hard yeah it’s so hard cuz they just they know what to say it’s just getting into it
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um I think what H what happens is that um sorry I’m losing my so many thoughts
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here uh oh that’s right uh kind versus kind versus um nice versus kind MH right
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ties a little bit into Mr Nice Guy again what’s the difference between nice and kind nice is kind of you’re dancing
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around the topic right it’s like what actually needs to be said where kindness is actually your
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direct but comes from positive intent and it’s done in a gentle way it’s another book radical cander also thrown
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a lot by Kim Scott where people think well being direct is just being saying whatever comes to mind right away direct
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and you’re not concerned about when you say it how you say it and what you say and and wrapping that in a cocoon of
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trust and psychological safety MH so that you broaching that getting to place of
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health and conflict you need to understand where people are coming from know that they have your best intent your best at heart and then be able to
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say give feedback like I want I’m saying this might not be useful here but I want the best this is why I’m saying it I’m
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not here to break you down and critique you I want you to use this as evidence data to action and then get better yeah
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so I’m curious you mentioned before about the power structure right like when you’re coaching clients was trying to go up the power struct
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what barriers do you see there because I just you know know I’m selfemployed so I don’t really have to deal with this particular part of business but um when
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I was working in companies that was the hardest part right was like going up the chain and bringing feedback to somebody
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um yeah you know in a way that is tactful and effective M that that is
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hard because the kind of structured power dynamics and and this multiple layers to that as well not just
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hierarchical level but it’s also um social um societal historic like you
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know are we the same a different uh skin color gender uh affiliations what
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university went to so there’s a lot of layers of complexity um there is a lot individuals can do I
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think a lot of times um people like trying to have this difficult conversation with a a leader feel like I
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don’t have power but the a lot of times the assumption is like they’re in Need for
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themselves and they’re here to you not they don’t have my best at heart and that isn’t always true they haven’t
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necessarily tasted as an assumption and I think assumptions are very dangerous and that’s where if you tech for about
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you can Broach and Broach conversation by testing the assumptions and just seeking to understand kind of comes back to that principle again and then you
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kind of know where you stand because sometimes unfortunately reality is like sometimes you are in a toxic environment so it depends on context uh but at the
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same time it’s two-way so there’s a lot the leader needs to do the organization needs to do to create that psychological safety and I mean another cliche is
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saying is everything Rises and falls in leadership so but it’s always a two-way
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street and I try to like coach people not whether they a manager individual contributor to not fall into that kind
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of victim mode either like there’s actually a lot you can do and explore yeah can you describe what that means everything Rises and falls in leadership
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like what does that mean it’s like everything has consequences right yeah it’s like
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there’s a ripple effect uh to to what to what you do the decisions you make um
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how quickly you move how you interact with people uh and I think sometimes
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often what I’ve observed is that uh leaders are so so outcomes focused that
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they just think about getting stuff done when they miss out that well there’s actually a journey here you need to
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bring people along they need to grow with you they need to understand why they need to feel safe and you actually
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need to like uh this idea of being culture first actually focus on the people setting up people success and
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they’ll drive the business results it’s very easy to say but such a challenging mindset for companies so I do a lot of
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kind of coaching strategic uh um coaching and planning around like so how do you actually do this how do you
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operationalize this way of thinking to really use your team your Workforce as an engine you know to drive those
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outcomes yeah you know as as you’re talking I think we’ll talk more about this on the other side of the break the word fear just keeps coming up like it
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just sounds like in some of these organizations no matter how successful they are or these people no matter how successful they are there’s a sense of
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fear and scarcity that I think leads to missing the people right missing the actual relationships and the people
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around them you know like i’ imagine someone’s very outcome focused because they don’t want to lose their job you know or they want to get to that next
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promotional level you know there is like a lack of safety like you said what do you think about that absolutely I the
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theme I’m observing is that also the talent Market currently uh I think people feels very competitive there’s a
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bit of a scarcity mindset even though it is actually uh a lot more opportunity there was maybe even 3 4 six years ago
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right um so that does impact how folks uh how comfortable they are but often
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even if the market is good talent Market people tend to just kind of U well I’m not going to deal with this issue I’m
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just going to leave and go somewhere else and they don’t really grow which I feel it’s a missed opportunity yeah I I agree completely so we’re going to move
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into our first commercial break when we come back I want to hear more about the underlying emotions in a workplace um talking a little bit about how to um
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recognize and build strengths within teams and a big question of what is a healthy workplace you know we can often
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talk about what it’s not but I’m curious what it is as well so if you’re listening hang on in there and we’ll see you on the other side of the
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break
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welcome back to the show I’m here with Philip B and we’re talking about workplace culture um how to create psychological safety and the role of
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coaching in all that and becoming a better leader so Philip I want to start you with a question of how does someone
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know they’re in toxic workplace because I I think in our culture it can go either way right I think like there’s
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some people who have maybe never had any other job and they think that their workplace is um horrible right when and
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doubt it might be one of the best better places to work in town right and vice versa where somebody could really be in
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an abusive workplace and because they don’t have a lot of experience they could just be like oh it’s you know it’s fine right this is what every job is so
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you know you mentioned starting with awareness so how can someone become aware that a workplace culture is
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unhealthy and not working for them yeah I mean such a good question and and
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I’m going to give you the typical the short answer be a typical organizational psychologist answer which is it depends
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like and it’s contextual and it’s and it’s on a scale uh I think let’s get the obvious one out of the way right if and
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I actually like the word uh words hostile and d and function dysfunctional versus functional a little bit better
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than toxic because I feel it’s a little bit binary and people seem tend to throw around a little bit I mean if
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environment’s hostile like you feel physically sexually harassed uh emot Al
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like it becomes pretty clear that’s when you kind of have a you know HR case right that’s clear black and white and
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that could be companywide pervasive or in an instance that is your experience as an individual that is I would say
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hostile and that’s not okay so that’s that’s more black and white more clear for me um and we can obviously unpack
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that one when is a little bit more subversive in a way is when it’s not
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obvious hostility but you don’t feel great you don’t feel engaged you don’t feel like you can speak up your self
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censoring uh you’re working around people that’s when the word politics get thrown around a a little a lot what is
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politics mean you know and uh way I kind of describe it’s just when you’re not
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able to say something directly or do be direct because you there’s lack of trust psychological safety you go around you
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do workarounds you avoid things a lot like personal home relationships when you start stonewalling avoiding that
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kind of stuff and you see that in the workplace it’s probably not as functional as healthy again it’s I I
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don’t see it’s a binary thing like most companies fall in that scale no no company no organization is perfect no
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relationship no family is perfect so it’s it’s understanding like where do I fall in in that um on that scale
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organization and what is my role in it is the other thing this is the kind of
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side irony is that I’ve often hear people leave companies and they kind of tell me how they showed up and how they
23:26
operated and like really that is and they they’re saying this company is toxic right and I’m listening to their
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behavior and how they showed up in the company I’m like that’s not really that seems consistent with the culture like
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it’s so you know with us we also have to look at ourselves at the same time have humility in that in that sense you can
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you can break the what’s healthy and what’s is functional not functional down a little bit things I look for is
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absence of trust I’m a big fan of Patrick lenion another really good book fight this functions of a team it’s been
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around for quite a while it’s a really easy framework uh when there’s fear of conflict we say conflict it’s like
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having direct conversations not not talking about hostility here but really just uh do I have safe to deconflict and
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and have a disagreement uh the lack of commitment when people don’t really yeah that’s a team that say and I don’t
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really agree with that I’m just going to go over here and do my own thing that’s dysfunctional as well it’s not hostile it’s just D it’s it’s not you’re not
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being not good teamwork right um and then avoidance of accountability like that’s such a biggie
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and so hard to keep other people accountable you need a lot of safety and trust and all those things people don’t always follow through what they do you
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know it’s also dysfunction like lastly is the the bottom line for organization is you don’t get results right or it’s
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poor results it’s mediocre it’s not what it could be but we’re kind of chugging along we’re doing the thing but we’re
24:45
actually not where we could be yeah that’s really clear I think those examples are very helpful and I imagine
24:50
people as you’re talking can think back either I mean to their current job or the past jobs they’ve had it’s like oh
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yeah there wasn’t that trust there like there was a lot of Poli everything seemed harder than it needed to be you
25:01
know and I and I think with big organizations the politics thing is so interesting where it’s like oh don’t talk to so and so about this thing but
25:07
you can talk to this other person about this other thing and it’s like all about influence and control and you know having factions and voting majorities
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and stuff like that like how do you start to like untangle that knot in in a
25:18
larger corporate setting it’s a really tough question I mean it’s a if you if you I think if
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you’re able to uh do that and and and do that quickly and easily like you you’ll
25:31
have a pretty Mass massive recipe I think uh what I do from a Consulting perspective and actually reminds me of a
25:38
a story that I can quickly tell about how I got into HR or people side I
25:43
things I really like to term HR but so in my last engineering gig uh I spent my
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first 12 years of my career as a software engineer and then engineering manager and I spent four years and 10
25:55
months building a team from Two and a Half Engineers to 40 mhm we had great engagement uh we had 0% turnover for 27
26:04
months that was our record we competed against uh companies like Amazon and Google and you know and some other big
26:11
uh employer Brands and we kept our folks we actually poached people from their interview processes to come join our
26:17
story really healthy culture we took our little startup from two two live customers Finance uh financial
26:23
institutions Banks to almost 30 worldwide for those folks in Colorado First Bank of Colorado was our first client so really some big stuff in a
26:31
short period of time took me 5 years to build that team within 3 or four months and I’m not exaggerating here the
26:37
culture was dismantled so uh so it came our our
26:42
subculture was different from the race of the company and that created conflict we weren’t able to resolve it and
26:47
there’s a lot of pressure on our team to just change the way we work uh my boss
26:53
said like I my values don’t align this is not how I want to operate I’m out of here I left and within
26:58
exactly 12 months uh onethird of the engineers resigned to the number we saw them resign resign compan has never
27:04
recovered they Flatline I think they’re trying to sell now they’re struggling and it’s like wow is that not a you know
27:11
case in point great case study of the impact of culture and it became because at the very top level and that’s com
27:18
comes back to my other Mantra of everything rise and Falls of leadership um at an executive level Executives
27:25
couldn’t Deon deconflict they couldn’t have a a honest direct
27:33
conversation so that’s why if you think of when I think about transformation and that’s a term thrown around a lot it
27:39
really starts at the top I need to understand the individuals involved and there we need to kind of do a values alignment here if there’s growth areas
27:46
that’s great there needs to kind of be humility and receptiveness openness otherwise coaching won’t work otherwise
27:52
any planning strategy won’t work if they you know pull up the braks on anything so it’s a bit of a the change m it’s
27:58
change management the the words thr out starts at the top and then you kind of start mapping a lot of layers and this
28:05
where kind of lot of Consulting hours goes into like how do we get work done what it’s our Systems Operations you
28:11
know what our leadership how they support it where the skills gaps there’s tools as well you know that enables all
28:18
that so but again it starts kind of from the it starts very much from the top down yeah when I like you know being a
28:24
therapist I like that it starts with the individuals it starts with like the players and the people and their own individual psychology because what I
28:30
imagine is if you come up with the greatest policy the greatest change management strategy and you change all the stuff on paper if the people aren’t
28:36
bought in they’re just going to like loophole it right or they’re going to find ways to go back to the same old
28:41
culture that they had before you know people are very good at resisting change you know um so so I’m curious you you
28:48
talk about coaching how do you start with the top how do you get into that more personal level with somebody who is
28:53
in a c-level position or you know um leading big teams yeah it’s what I love
29:01
about it and what I think what makes me so effective is that I it started my my own
29:08
transformation right um not not entering judgmentally understanding these often
29:14
well intended individuals uh they might not come across that way but I’m not going to just judge or assume I’m going to see
29:21
really what’s important for them what’s going on for them and really start start building trust you know it’s like and
29:28
that’s why that’s how I why organizations are so um interesting to
29:33
me because what are organizations they’re just collection of people organizations are people it’s not this nebulous thing on paper and it starts
29:39
with every little moving piece which are the humans and the interactions around them who the how they how and who they
29:45
interact with uh so at the top I really just start by you know I got to know you
29:50
I got to know my my current partner my business partner Etc is like who is this person like what’s going on for them
29:56
just being curious and really listening and that’s a skill I didn’t do well if we talk about transformation you know I
30:03
was married before and got divorced and I one of the things I didn’t do well was listen I heard but I didn’t listen and
30:11
easier to say but it’s it really requires me to like put my own agendas
30:16
set that aside um my own desires goals and really just be there for that other person I
30:22
that actually reminds me of a another saying so besides you know referencing books I love quotes as chees as they are
30:28
they just kind of Mak things really concise and memorable I love this um quote by Emerson our chief want is
30:36
someone who will inspire us to be what we know we could be if you distill that a little bit people just want be want to
30:43
be uh seen and Hur and known that’s the basic human needs and every single human
30:48
being have that need it might just be an effective how they go about SE see getting those needs met but I just try
30:55
to be that person for them mhm yes someone that like gets them and again in the workplace that’s so rare you think
31:01
it’d be common right cuz like knowing your people makes you a better leader but it is very rare um and yeah do
31:08
people tend to turn to coaches for that need or or how does that get met I think generally doesn’t yeah I
31:15
think we just so especially you know localizing a little bit I think in our
31:20
um very driven hardworking uh tin origin
31:25
based you know culture it’s all about output output results achievements and
31:31
uh sometimes superficial um satisfaction like will you work for what how big the
31:36
compan is how much money you make all that stuff uh where it really is to be about the individual I think I always my
31:45
curiosity is always around how people try to get those needs met which is usually just often kind of gossiping or
31:51
venting and there’s maybe a role for the venting that’s helped the process but if it’s not turned around constructively
31:58
nothing changes if you change nothing nothing changes and that’s where you need someone a bit of a coaching mindset
32:04
and by the way managers can be coaches as well the most effective managers are coaches or have that coaching skill in
32:09
their repertoire and really help people be heard seen and not tell them what to
32:15
do or how to think or feel but help them get those insights and uh figure out for them help them figure out for themselves
32:22
how do I go about addressing this concern and getting this need met um and
32:28
yeah again it starts at it you can institutionalize it through leadership development a big part of this is hiring
32:34
the managers who kind of care and think about that that’s that’s a little bit harder to to train you can train the
32:40
coaching skill yeah yeah we have they have to be interested in people to begin with right or see the value in people in
32:48
order to you know build the skills on top of that that that’s a big I mean you can always get external coaches as well
32:54
that’s a thing it’s corporate coaching you can hire external coaches or even that bigger companies have internally uh
33:00
a lot of companies sponsor leader to go find that coach uh but yeah it’s it’s so
33:06
powerful if you have someone uh and I mean I think companies often fall in the Trap of getting people good individual
33:13
contributors I almost feel like I shouldn’t have to say this because I think everyone knows about it it’s probably what saying is that really your
33:20
people leaders should is on a different track than an individual contributor right their main function is to enable
33:27
people they are a talent and neighor is not a way of putting it yeah yeah so you
33:33
know you talk about focusing on somebody’s strength and this combination of insight and action which I think is
33:38
critical right I mean I think some people focus too much on action but no Insight so they’re just kind of like flailing in the dark right or in therapy
33:46
you C to run to the Trap of all Insight but no action right where it’s just a lot of Naval gazing and thinking and a
33:51
lot of intellectual work but not actually making change um so I know this
33:57
is a big question something that I work with a lot in my job too but it’s like what is that Catalyst moment like how do
34:03
you get somebody from insight to action it’s it’s a process yeah I think
34:10
there’s there’s no like Silver Bullet um there are some prerequisites I think a
34:16
lot of it comes through um someone has developed emotional intelligence I think that’s
34:22
something that’s important for me to say is that you’re not born with EQ with emotional intelligence selfawareness it’s something
34:28
develop um and who know it’s a combination of stuff you’ll probably able to explain that better but it’s
34:33
condition what’s the condition to get to a point where you’re open receptive to what’s going on to get that feedback
34:40
um and so that’s that’s kind of your fertile ground and then you have the
34:46
questions this kind of exploration questions like why is that why do you feel that way about this situation and
34:54
just that introspection you can get the individual to a safe space where they slow down and do introspection you ask a
35:01
powerful question that’s often where you get that light bulb moment and it’s often you you need a several of them you
35:09
know several of those kind of light bulb moments and insights uh but again in a Works Space we work fast we don’t always
35:15
slow down you need to create that space as best possible if you’re if you’re you know Effective People leader um or you
35:22
need to go outside of work and like Park that stuff and then really create a place where someone can learn and like
35:27
challenge you in a gentle way yeah yeah I think the the questions like the Socratic method right is really
35:34
critical right when you start to like drill in and and dig deep into what people what motivates people what they really want and that safety is critical
35:41
because I think what a lot of people want just like you said is like to be seen and heard and known and to be
35:47
respected and it’s often difficult to admit those types of things in the workplace right because they have this
35:53
idea that it’s all work it should just be professional it should just be about the mission it should just be about like getting your job done or being the best
35:59
but often times the needs are relational you know like I just want this person to like me you know or I just want to feel
36:05
like people listen to what I say it’s very kind of basic needs 100% And when I think about you
36:13
know this the pattern of questions like how do we bring this into workplace or how do we assess it I do think that’s
36:19
that’s not something one person can change is that culture around do we
36:24
understand that this company’s success relies on the relationships within the company and that’s maybe a good way to
36:30
test it in an interview process like how do you how do you get work done you know ask what is a culture it’s a little bit
36:36
Broad and neighbor you can kind of sidestep it and say fluffy stuff and we have food and couches and stuff right
36:42
but it’s like like how do you resolve conflict like how do you give feedback you know um how do you focus on people’s
36:47
growth there’s actually a list of questions that can can also share where probes that but if there’s not an
36:53
understanding of it’s not about just get the work done right that’s a bit of a trigger thing for me because I’m like
36:58
well how does the work get done it’s not just just it’s people and relationships and the more the stronger those
37:04
relationships are that’s a that is the foundation of your company success and individual’s personal success it’s
37:10
nothing else it’s not your IP it’s not how much how many investment back backing you have all that stuff yeah
37:17
it’s the people right that make of the organization cuz if they leave you have no company you know like it just all
37:22
falls apart um as as cliche as that sounds and if when we’ve studied companies that are successful say well
37:27
not it’s the that’s the patterns the people absolutely absolutely well this is great we’re going to move into our
37:33
final commercial break when we get back we’ll talk to listeners about how they might get started on shifting culture
37:38
how they might you know strategically go through a conflict with somebody um with a leader or with an employee and I’m
37:43
also just curious randomly like what it’s like in a small business you know where it’s off or a family business I think we’re talking a lot about uh
37:50
corporations and large organizations but I know a lot of our listeners are also small business owners so i’ be curious
37:55
how it trickles down into those types of so Med Med yeah a lot of good stuff to talk about and we’ll uh see you on the
38:01
other side of the commercial
38:26
break
38:56
e
39:26
e
39:56
e e
40:27
welcome back to the show I’m here with Philip baa and we’re talking about culture and business um comment resolution and just kind of how to get
40:34
your needs met in the workplace so Philip we ended last time with a curiosity I’m curious like how these
40:40
things apply to small businesses whether it be startups um or restaurants or blue
40:45
collar businesses you know I think a lot of people in those positions think that coaching is only for the big guys in a
40:51
way right it’s only for the corporations and I think there’s a lot of opportunity to be had for coaching on the small
40:56
business level where the boundaries are even more blurred often you know sometimes it’s family members sometimes
41:02
it’s you know you hired your friend to work at your restaurant you know sometimes there’s you know things like child care where the kid comes into the
41:09
office and you know is is there while people are working right like it’s a much less boundaried place and often
41:15
more of these soci Dynamics can even arise in a small business setting so I’m curious if you had experience working
41:21
with small businesses or startups and what it’s like um how do you apply these these ideas to those me absolutely I
41:28
think I think in bigger organizations right you can kind of hide behind process you know go to a cubicle or a
41:34
different office and send someone a text message so I I’ll use my current
41:39
situation a little bit as an example um so being a glutton for punishment you know finishing up my you know master’s
41:46
degree and doing coaching and and Consulting as well I started uh started a business with uh someone I’ve known
41:52
for a while has also become a close friend and currently from out of town
41:57
staying with me so we’re sharing a fairly small apartment um and we’re
42:02
working in the same space so we basically see each other all day unless I you know choose to go go for a run and
42:09
um you know have my own space a little bit uh and yeah I mean it’s and because
42:14
it’s an early stage startup it’s high pressure it’s very much the entrepreneurial roller coaster and some
42:19
days are great some days are not so good some days one of us down and the other’s up and vice versa so a little ritual
42:25
that we started is to start the day so we have this uh planned meeting point
42:30
ritual where we we have a big whiteboard in my living room and that’s where we meet every morning at 8: a.m. um and we
42:37
started by ler checking like how are you like how are you doing and being real and saying like pressing each other like
42:43
really what’s going like how are you really and sometimes okay it’s fine but sometimes like yeah I’m not feeling great today I’m feeling stressed this
42:49
and literally just like sharing I’m stess about you know are we getting enough funding like what’s our pitch
42:54
deck look like am I getting enough time to you know called stuff like that um another person um what we’ve both
43:01
learned and kind of a side note is that we both actually kind of Co coaches as well but we both have our own coaches
43:07
and therapists right so it’s it’s really a good coaching therapist I know Markus you would ATT test have a therapist and
43:14
a coach as well or a coach right definitely yep so we’ve been primed and
43:19
prepped and coach on how to engage and create space you know all space with the other person sometimes our checkins are
43:26
literally I’d say minute 30 seconds maybe 2 minutes this early this week we had a
43:32
check in for an hour mhm that what that was what was needed unfortunately you know we had time and
43:38
we didn’t run into meetings or engagements but we that was what was needed and we unpacked things we spoke
43:45
about some relationship stuff I think that’s the other big thing is also knowing when you’re talking about work and when you talking about the work
43:51
relationship and kind of separating those two things um you you can kind of there’s Frameworks like crucial convers
43:57
crucial conversations helps with that as well but really making the time to know hey are we
44:03
okay you know is everything that said needs to be said and and we running on that field still for the rest of the
44:08
week because we know we got each other we know what’s going on for the other person we can adjust according consider and support and that’s you that that is
44:16
what we preach and that’s what we try to practice not not easy and it’s like ah I got to do work I’m feeling pressure I
44:21
should be doing this call whatever but I’m like this is really important like I’m investing here in a relationship and the future of the company MH absolutely
44:29
right and like the relationship is what’s going to endure Beyond just the work that you’re doing yeah you know yeah exactly exactly yeah so so I’m
44:38
curious like these are great skills right like talking about your relationship checking in being curious
44:43
about people do you find I maybe it’s not a binary question but like is it easier to build it in the workplace or
44:50
in your life you know or is there a pathway where people build it in their workplace and then end up doing it more
44:56
in their life because I can see these coaching skills being useful all the time AB absolutely there’s definitely
45:04
opportunity both ways uh another example I give you another framework that was a game changer in my personal life is
45:10
called nonviolent communication it’s very similar to crucial conversations just a little bit older and and a little
45:16
bit different branding um but it focus onnr is the framework observations
45:23
feelings needs requests I learned that uh I went through I was fortun to go
45:28
through like a three four session uh training program it’s pretty intense and a lot of homework and reading a book and
45:34
Etc um and I was able to practice it in a workplace but I ended up applying it
45:39
with my relationships with my mom and my brother and it completely change those relationships from me being nice guy and
45:45
not dealing the issues but re and feeling just Decades of baggage right
45:51
and actually being able to deconstruct the baggage like what’s in this baggage right I love the the funny saying you
45:57
know we all have baggage only question is whether it’s checked or carry-on MH yeah right so it’s like we had a lot of
46:03
carry-on baggage in our relationship and through just observing sharing what’s going on what I noticed for the person
46:10
and being curious they able to share and unpack that baggage and I actually understood a lot of things um just them
46:17
feeling recognizing how they feel without judgment like whether I agree they should feel that way or not doesn’t
46:22
matter just acknowledging I can see why that frustrates you when we interact this way and then helping them you kind
46:29
of articulate what they need from me and understand helping them articulate the requests like why would you like how can
46:35
I support you what does that look like absolute Game Changer I used that you know many years now coaching or
46:41
supporting internal in the company and it’s very similar mindset I use uh when I coach you know externally as well yeah
46:48
so I like that you’ve really like made coaching a lifestyle and I we talked about that a little bit earlier in the episode but how can someone start to
46:56
follow that path right and bring coaching into their day-to-day yeah I think the key thing is
47:04
maybe not to get stuck on the word coaching well what does a coach do I think to differentiate uh and this was
47:10
part of my journey as well uh um it’s another good book called the um the
47:16
coaching habit it talks and it’s actually a great T talk it’s fairly short by Mich Michael buang and he talks
47:22
about the advice monster mhm and I’m like sh I read that book and T talking I’m like shoot that’s me I have a
47:29
massive advice guy it’s well intended I want to help people I have a lot of thoughts and advice but it actually
47:35
helps kind of push people people away and they don’t actually feel seen and heard so therefore they don’t hear the
47:41
potentially helpful advice you have you know the other point the book makes is that our advice isn’t always as good as
47:47
we think because we don’t haven’t actually heard the other person we haven’t listened yeah you know well enough so the coaching really is is just
47:54
um first of all uh just being serous asking questions and helping person feel
47:59
seen and heard and to a point earlier of you know not staying there and you know
48:05
fall trapped to AAL gazing uh then be like um so what are you going to do mhm
48:10
you know because psychological what happens that they’ve now processed the emotions they are likely more receptive
48:17
they have potentially awareness through what you’ve helped them do um and you keep you’re still asking questions
48:24
you’re asking questions questions I think n 10 questions as hard as that is before you give advice that’s a little thing
48:31
little things people can try is just count the number of questions before you give advice and I think I think that
48:36
they did research and it was like average was like two or three if at all sometimes people just get like oh you
48:41
should do this you should do that when like the person might not feel like well you didn’t actually get it that’s not
48:47
somewhat maybe helpful but not really um and even when it comes to actioning ask the person what do you think’s best
48:53
because they probably often know it’s their it’s their feelings it’s the emotion that’s the block right that’s
48:59
the that’s the need not the problem solving necessarily and when you’ve asked a few questions then at the end
49:05
you maybe can say hey I have a thought what about this what do you think and turn it back on that’s a skill it takes
49:12
practice uh it’s hard to fall into old habits and I’ve I’ve had to work really hard to like really undo that um and I
49:20
think making it I think probably the question will come up is like well I don’t want you don’t want your spouse to
49:26
feel like like you’re coaching them right um and it and it might be a little awkward initially but it once they
49:32
understand like this is what you’re trying to do you’re just trying to be curious and understand and might be a
49:37
little bit uh bulling the china shop but this is the 10 in saying that they will
49:43
probably get it and kind of give you space and just go with it totally yeah and I think just asking you know
49:48
heteronormative relationships asking like hey are we solving problems or are we just trying to understand you know or
49:55
like are you ready for some advice I think consent is like really important when it comes to that you know and not
50:01
jumping to conclusions yeah love that such a good point and and that’s another question like Hey what how can I support
50:07
you right now what he needs from me right now you know um that simple question is so powerful even that just
50:12
that don’t feel probably feel better M absolutely yeah and I want to bring you back to what you said because you know
50:18
OB as like a therapy component is it’s the emotions you know it’s it’s not that they haven’t thought about you know and
50:23
especially if you haven’t asked questions the advice you’re going to give they probably thought about whatever that Crossroad moment is but
50:30
it’s often that yeah they’re afraid or you know they’re not secure or they’re feeling they’re not feeling confident or
50:35
they’re worried that it might play out in a way they’re anxious right that didn’t work out before based on some
50:41
other past relationship that they had you know it’s often a lot deeper it’s like hey have you tried option A you
50:46
know cuz they probably they probably thought about that one you know exactly I had a um friend who used
50:53
to say like oh so you’re saying this this you know when you give me this advice you’re saying there’s this thing
50:58
called the internet oh I never thought about Googling I can go so I mean it’s obviously not my intent I’m trying to be
51:04
helpful but yeah it doesn’t it comes across as unempathetic right right um so
51:09
as we’re nearing the end of our show here I’m curious Philip like if someone could take an action right away if they feel inspired or curious about this
51:16
conversation um is there something that they could do either a resource that they could read or maybe a writing
51:21
prompt or introspection or questions they could ask somebody I don’t know like how would you recommend
51:27
somebody gets started when it comes to building a healthier culture for themselves both in the workplace and and
51:32
at home you know and internally yeah I mean it’s it’s it all
51:39
starts with awareness right um I
51:44
think in in that awareness a sounding board is quite powerful so you know not surprisingly I’m going to promote
51:51
coaching right cuz I’m you know I I’m in the business of helping people and getting the needs made because that
51:56
makes me that’s my place in the world um and I found coaching to be super powerful but it doesn’t have to be professional coach be someone who’s just
52:03
a really good listener and actually you know can create that space for you uh and then based you mean out of that
52:09
you’ll kind of hopefully get clarity of your blind spots and what you need help with as a coach I’m super aware like my
52:17
focus very much in the present and looking forward sometimes I notic some people have issues and things they want to need to unpack and work on that’s
52:23
maybe deeper and for that I’ll advise them to a therapist like like need someone to like understand where you are currently where you came from that
52:30
Journey right and there’s a lot more Psychotherapy and you know that’s that’s that’s your expertise right Mark um and
52:37
then from there there’s a lot of things and I can give specific things I worked on from my perspective uh just educate
52:43
yourself I think a big part of my just with work for me was Ed not just talking
52:48
about it but really educating myself like understanding uh and I mean a lot of people feel they
52:54
want to change something but they’re not really necess spending investing in it I think that’s the question I’ll probably
53:00
leave people with like what do I want to change and how am I going to go about it yeah right I can tell you some books in
53:06
my journey like um I want to plug that one because that was a game changer for me was the the man’s guy to woman MH
53:13
that was huge right I mean therapy a lot of things I think I’ve read that one third time three times nice or lessen do
53:20
three times yeah yeah yeah and I have a healthy relationship happy relationship to to thank for that Journey but it’s
53:25
took me like 4 years and a lot of introspection a lot of work and a lot of support from individuals like yourself
53:32
as well as uh men’s groups like that that pure pure support pure coaching pure accountability is huge yeah and you
53:39
know you mentioned a ton of books we put those in the show note for the listeners I think education is huge because one it gives you a deeper understanding and
53:46
deeper awareness and it might help connect some dots that you weren’t sure were connected it’s like oh yeah this is
53:51
all the same thing and for me it’s helped me feel less alone cuz if there’s like a book B about it right like I’m
53:58
not crazy right clearly a lot of people feel and think the way that I do or have the same PRS that I do um so it’s it’s
54:05
very validating and like oh okay I’m not just like bat you know I’m not I’m not like a outlier right like my issues
54:12
are actually pretty common um yeah it it breaks down that shame you like you don’t feel alone like you said that’s
54:17
that’s huge and because that’s where shame thrives in isolation yeah well Phil this is a great conversation I’m
54:23
excited to have you back on the show um in a bit but I’m curious if people want to learn more about you and about what you do where could they find you
54:29
online uh LinkedIn is a good place good place fora with that link in there uh
54:36
link to Quick meetings I have a website culture advantage. co.za uh that’s also on my LinkedIn page
54:42
so that’s a good place to reach me super responsive and all my contact details are there fantastic all St in the show
54:48
note if you want to contact Philip and learn more about him so thank you all for tuning in and we’ll see you next
54:53
week another episode of the men’s therapy podcast thanks Mark
Sameera Sullivan, a matchmaker, joins Marc Azoulay to unpack why dating feels so hard for men right now. Learn what it takes to find and keep a real relationship. Drawing on her experience vetting and coaching clients, Sameera explains how app fatigue, endless options, and approach anxiety leave many good men stuck. They discuss how attachment styles, love languages, and personality types shape compatibility,
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Unpack what a modern midlife crisis actually looks like. Learn why the old stereotypes get it wrong. Discover how it can become an initiation instead of a collapse.
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