Multinational Men’s Work w/ Carlos Davidovich

Multinational Men’s Work w/ Carlos Davidovich

July 24, 2024

Our guest, Carlos Davidovich, has run men’s groups in Argentina and Spain for decades. He comes on the show to talk about cultural differences in masculinity and how Spanish cultures gel with the messages in Iron John.

Episode Transcript:

Intro: [00:00:00] Mark Azoulay is an industry leader in psychotherapy and men’s mental health. He’s helped countless guys get back on their feet, deepen their relationships, and excel in their lives. Now he’s taken all that he has learned and is sharing it with you. In each episode, Mark will interview an expert in the field of masculinity and men’s work.

We’ll cover topics such as emotional intelligence, masculine identity. Anger management, financial health, trauma recovery, marriage and divorce, ethics and spirituality. Tune in and become a better man.

Marc: Welcome back to the show. I’m your host, Mark Azoulay, and I’m here with Carlos Davidovich. And we’re talking about men’s work, especially international in Spain, Argentina. So Carlos has been in the men’s work field for a long time. You were saying like 30 years when we talked?

Carlos: Yep, working on this, started working on this.

Marc: Yeah, like [00:01:00] when it kind of started around, like, you know, the late nineties, you know, um, which is awesome. He’s also an executive coach. He works with neuro management with teams of how to bring neuroscience into organizations and help leaders optimize their brain to be more effective at their work. So, Carlos, thank you so much.

I’m excited to have you on the show.

Carlos: No, it’s a pleasure for me, Mark. Thanks for inviting me. I’m delighted to be here.

Marc: Yeah, it’s always good to talk to, like, the older generation in a way of you got started a lot of this stuff, um, and really inspired me and some of my other contemporaries here in Colorado.

So it’s an honor, truly. Oh, please. So I always want to start with the personal story. So I’m curious, like, what was your journey around being a man and masculinity? And how’d you get into some of this work? Like, how’d you end up where you are now?

Carlos: Okay. It’s a long story. Do we have time? We got time. We got the

Marc: whole episode.

Carlos: So. Uh, everything started. Okay. I’m, I, I am from Argentina. Born and raised there. Studied medicine. I’m a medical doctor and [00:02:00] MD and, uh, and I would say from my, uh, young, young age, I mean, uh, uh, I, I was really interested in everything that was around, uh, human behavior and, and development. Inner development, mainly in general, let’s say we can call it spirituality, we can call it, I mean, whatever you want.

I mean. Not connected with any religion, but it’s just about what it really means in a development. In one moment that was, uh, yeah, at least around 30 years ago, um, we were, we got, we got the opportunity that was when the book by Bly was written, uh, Iron John. And that was showing a different Perspective on masculinity.

And I tell you how this started because this is a nice story. We were, uh, three friends. I mean, I, I, I met with that too. And [00:03:00] our question in a funny way was, we don’t know what, what to talk on Monday morning at work.

Marc: Okay.

Carlos: Because Monday morning, everybody talks about, okay, sports. That’s not bad. Okay. But we are not such as poor guy at that moment.

And I mean, okay, can I be honest here? We are talking about some. I mean, uh, conquer a sexual situation or whatever. Yeah. And

Marc: most of the weekend. Yeah. Yeah,

Carlos: exactly. And we, and we were, I mean, all of us, we had our girlfriend by that time and, and, and not interested to discuss those kinds of things at all. So I remember that we, we, we were still laughing and we said, Hey, let’s do something around this.

And one of the guy brought the book, I don’t join. And we discovered that was something that was. Okay. Growing all over the world in that moment, there were different faces, you know, that was, uh, in, in the late, uh, latest 90, though, this came to the world [00:04:00] and then there was this went down and then up again, there was cycles like, uh, everything.

And we decided we didn’t want to be honest, we didn’t want to just to gather a group of men around a barbecue and a glass of wine. We didn’t want that. We wanted something more, I would say, ritualistic, more formal. And in that moment, uh, personally, I was getting into some shamanic techniques myself. Quite interested on that.

And there is one technique called the tribal concilium. Okay. That is, is a, is, is a very old technique. That is used in groups and everybody has opportunities to share in a very particular way. So long story short, we decided just to meet in one place. That I used to run in Buenos Aires in Argentina. I used to have their flotation tanks.

I don’t know if you, you heard about it?

Marc: Yeah, I’ve, I’ve been in them. Yeah. They’re great.

Carlos: Yeah.

Marc: [00:05:00] Yeah.

Carlos: I, I was the, the first one in, in Argentina was mine and Okay. and, uh, and we, there was a, there was a big room, so we decided to gather there and. Under, let’s say, a couple hours under this technique called the tribal concilium.

That is about the talking stick, maybe you heard about it. So there is something that we decided and everybody had the chance to share, to talk, to keep in silence, doesn’t matter. But the secret of the technique is that you only can talk from yourself about yourself. So there’s a way to avoid confrontations, right, in a group.

Long story short, we were just three. We started spreading the word about it. We wanted to talk about topics that were related with a different perspective of masculinity. So, uh, it was fascinating last, like a couple of years in one [00:06:00] moment, we were around 50, five, zero, all kinds of profiles of men. I mean, all kinds of ages from 20 to 75 and people that were straight, that were gay, that were bisexual, that was not the point.

And the magic was that we gathered together, that was Saturdays, twice a month, and we decided, okay, let’s, what was the topic of the day? And the truth is that we didn’t know idea. So for instance, we propose, okay, let’s talk about couples, you know, couple relationship. And maybe after the first round, there was another topic, you know, popping up.

And then we say, no, the energy is there. So let’s talk about that. Long story short, we had an amazing experience discussing masculinity from a completely different perspective. If you ask me, Mark, okay, what was the main [00:07:00] difference? I will use one word that was since. Sensitivity, I mean, to be more sensitive

Marc: and,

Carlos: and, and, and to be able to express those things in a group of men.

That was a revolution in that, by that time, you know, like, uh, it took, I mean, think about Latin people, all of us from different origin, because Argentina is quite international. But it was one of the most powerful experiences in my life. And, uh, so that’s the way this started. And then I kept, let’s say mentoring is the right word.

Young, young men that were trying just to find out their way into the masculinity reality, because the level of cliche, the level of stereotypes regard around masculinity are huge. And, you know, I don’t need to tell you Mark about it. So [00:08:00] we were trying to break to break those. Uh, stereotypes and those paradigms.

Um, the, the, the most interesting story is first of all, we were not only three, we were many second, we found out that all over the world, there were people with the same needs, the need to express their sensitivity, the need to express their emotions, feeling that that was absolutely normal. And that I remember that we were, sometimes we were, I mean, just discussing after and taking notes.

But the magic was just the possibility and freedom to talk from whatever place you want on topics that traditionally are, were very, very, I would say, uh, narrow minded in the way to express them. And only one way, you know, one track mind in the way to express that. We [00:09:00] found out that were tons of men that were looking for similar things.

Yeah. That was my first experience. Then after 2000, I moved to Spain for personal reason. I mean, there was long story again, but, and in one moment I met one, uh, another one guy, one psychologist that he didn’t know about this experience. So we started the second group here in Spain and was the same, the same impact and the same experience.

So. Personally, for me, it was kind of a research, personal research, finding out there was a need of a new masculinity all over the world. And even though today people are kind of resistant to this still, I don’t know exactly your story, Mark, I would be delighted to do that, to know it. But I cannot deny, or let’s say it differently, I’m absolutely [00:10:00] fascinated to see That even though still the stereotype is there, there is a huge movement, let’s say, under the surface of men that needs to express masculinity in a completely different way.

Makes sense what I’m saying so far?

Marc: Oh yeah, I agree completely. I think, you know, I’m part of that, right? It’s happening in therapy rooms, it’s happening in my groups, in the retreats that I run, things like that, right? I think men are hungry for this, like you’re saying, and we need it. We need it. You know, I, I am curious what you think about this because when I think of your generation, right?

A lot of it was like the bully, right? The kind of like toxic masculine that we talked about how big boisterous, strong football player, right? Um, and then being more sensitive, talk about emotions was life changing. Because like you said, they weren’t allowed to do that. You know, it was just like, be tough, go forward.

What I see with my generation, I’m curious what you see with you. My generation is almost the opposite. As we have men that I call them, you know, like the nice guys, right. They don’t [00:11:00] express anything. They’re very, um, soft, but like fake soft, you know, they’re kind of like people pleasing. A lot of us are really shut down.

A lot of us are really shy and introverted. So we need. You know, the kind of the other half of Iron Throne, which is the strength and the warrior and the power through the emotion, right? Without being a bull like, I’m curious if you see the same difference in our generations,

Carlos: it’s totally true. And again, I try to be very.

Attentive, uh, mindful of what’s going on around me. I, I, I, my, my current job, I give a lot of talks and I coach a lot of people and a lot of men, and I always, always, I try to give the opportunity to express these things. And. I tell you 100 percent of the time, people start really, men start expressing the need to talk about these kind of things.

Yeah. But you [00:12:00] are so right. I mean, it’s like a, still, we are walking that path. Toward a final end, and that means that we, we not, we don’t know completely what that is, you know, and that’s why I think you say about the fake, the fake things, you know, like we are trying, like you’re walking with difficulties, you know, learning to walk.

So we are learning. Now we are learning to walk in new, in a new way. And that takes time, just to close the loop in 2013 for a job reason. I mean, I was invited to work and live in Canada and I went to, I stayed there for seven years in Toronto. And of course, I always was looking for these kinds of experiences.

And I found out one organization that originally I think is from North America. But it was in Canada as well, Mankind, you know, the organization,

Marc: Mankind [00:13:00] Project, yeah,

Carlos: Mankind Project,

Marc: MKP, yep. And

Carlos: I tell you, I went, I did the workshop, of course, the weekend, I did like a couple weekends. And I was shocked because it was exactly the same, much, much organized, let’s say, because it has a lot of rules and, and the program is quite amazing.

And, and when, and they also had the Iron John as one of the book of reference. But I didn’t know that. I mean, I, I knew it in Canada when I already was kind of grown up and I said, gosh, I need to know about this. And they were, they were, I don’t know if you had the experience. You went through the experience of the project.

Marc: I’ve done the weekend. I was in a weekend as well.

Carlos: Again, they put together a shamanic techniques on the, on the power animal and you know, the same thing, but we were doing that just from our heart. We didn’t know that in Argentina. That is an interesting thing. And don’t get me wrong. What I’m trying to [00:14:00] say is when the energy is in place, it’s all over the places, all over the world, and many people can perceive it, can feel it and can put it in place.

Like, that’s what I want to say.

Marc: Yeah. So I’m curious about that, about the, the multicultural differences, right? Because when I think of Iron John, right, it’s a very European tale, right? It’s like a Grimm’s fairy tale for people that, that haven’t read it. Right. It’s like almost like King Arthur or like Cinderella, right?

It’s very kind of like European countryside. So when you said, yeah, you’re from Argentina and Spain, you’re talking about Latin culture and Spanish culture. Like, I’m curious if it got translated or how it interacts with those different cultures.

Carlos: I would say no, I, I, I tell you, Mark, uh, okay, I have, I’ve had the honor or the, the, the pleasure to live in many different countries and to meet different cultures.

One thing I learned and I want to share with you is [00:15:00] there are different layers. In human behavior, there is a first layer that is connected with a cultural aspect of each country or each culture, let’s say, you know, and you need to know it and you need to respect it. The cultural thing is the difference that you’re talking

Marc: about.

Carlos: At the moment that you have the chance to get together with those people, whatever a place they’re coming from. When you go through the first layer, let’s say we are all the same mark, we have the same needs. It’s about, it’s a, we are the same needs the way to express it, maybe it’s different due to the cultural differences, but the basic human needs are the same all over the world.

And I defend that position a lot because then, again, if you’re respectful of the culture of the place, you can really start connecting with people at [00:16:00] the same level in any place in the world. Makes sense.

Marc: It does. It does. Yeah. And when I think you talk about these men, like, I think we need to be seen and heard, right?

Like we need to be seen as full humans, not just like the masks that we often wear, you know?

Carlos: Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s being ourself and not, not playing all the time, that persona that we have to, you know, and that many times you have to do it. So even though, even though still is a way to go. So it’s not something that is already established.

Let’s say there are cultures that are easier than others. I mean, to, to introduce the changes that we are talking today, but again, we need to keep pushing and we need to keep trying because that new masculinity came to stay, but It doesn’t mean that we’ll, we’ll work at once. Make sense what I’m saying?

[00:17:00] So it makes that it is something that will still needs to fight with it all the one, but in the end, more and more people look at you and your podcast. Come on. This is. Not even to think about this kind of podcast a few years ago. And today you can see it everywhere. I’m very, I say, I’m very, I open, I mean, when, when I watch different movies or whatever, to find out these kinds of patterns and you will see it.

Yeah,

Marc: I think it’s starting to spread and I hear what you’re saying. It’s, it’s still a fight. You know, I think the old masculinity is still the majority, but I think, yeah, shows like this and the work that you’re doing and just like getting the message out there. I think like you said, guys need this. And every single man literally a hundred percent that has experienced this, whether it be the talking stick or a retreat or just in a therapy session, right?

They’re like, Oh my God, I need this. I need to be able to express myself. It’s awesome. Yeah. So we’re going to move towards our first commercial break. When we come back, I want to hear more [00:18:00] about, you know, what you define as new masculinity, where you see this state of the world is right now, and maybe a little about where you think it’s going.

So it’s a great conversation. I’m excited to continue with you. Hang on in there and we’ll see you on the other side.

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Marc: Welcome back to the show. I’m your host Mark Azulay and I’m here with Carlos and we’re talking about Iron John, about new masculinity, about men being more sensitive, talking about their feelings. I’m curious, you know, I guess to start with the, with the book a little bit, right? Uh, Robert Bly talks about this wild man, you know, the title character, right?

Iron John, this guy who lives at the [00:21:00] bottom of the swamp that he says every man has inside of him, but often hasn’t been in contact with, um, and for the listeners, like we’re going to be talking a lot about this book. I’m going to put the link to it in the show notes so you can follow along. Um, but yeah, it’s really worth it.

Uh, but Carlos, I’m curious, starting there, like. How would you define the wild man now, and how do guys start to get in touch with that type of like wild primal energy?

Carlos: Can I say, I want to comment on something you said before the break.

Marc: Yeah, jump right in. I

Carlos: don’t agree with you that still the macho man is majority.

I don’t agree with that. I think the majority is exactly the other side. That stereotype still is in power. That’s a different situation, but it doesn’t mean that it’s majority. I think that the movement that started, I don’t know, 30 years ago is growing and growing and [00:22:00] growing. And you just said in one way, I just, let me, let me rephrase it.

You said that men wants, uh, To express feeling and, and, and, and all these kind of sentiments, you know what I mean? Those feelings, those emotions were always there. Mm hmm. We were, we never were taught on how to express them. How to present them. Because it was denied for men. So men should not be feeling, should not be having emotions, blah, blah, blah.

All this stuff. What I’m trying to say is, what is happening today, is just, today, okay, or from last years. It’s learning how to express something that was always there. I will say, I will use the, the, the analogy of the volcano. You know, the, the, the energy was [00:23:00] there. I mean, one moment was an opportunity just to boom.

To, to, to explode and to start and then people say, Hey, that’s, that’s exactly what I also feel. So let’s go there. You talk about the wild men and sorry, maybe it’s a, it’s a segue, but by that time there were two books in place that was a revolution, one for men and one for women. The one for men was Iron John, and the one for women was called Women That Run With Wolves written, written by Pinkola Estes, a Mexican woman, her PhD was the book.

And she also talks about the wild woman. And it’s the same, the same pattern, the wild woman and the wild man. I didn’t tell you, but in that [00:24:00] moment that we were starting with these men groups. A lot of friend of us, females, were starting the females group with the same objective. Nice. Nice. They were, they were focusing on the Pinkola’s textbooks and we were focusing on Iron, Iron John.

So what I’m trying to say, again. There was a movement that still is here, is growing and is moving forward that happened in both genders. So, and that, I think, is very important to understand. This is not something just about men. This is about mankind. It’s the whole humanity that is moving. Shifting to a new place, men and women, both of them trying to still to adjust to a new place.

Now, going back to your question, Mark, about, uh, what is the definition of the wild man? It’s [00:25:00] very different of what we can understand from those words. It’s no wild in the traditional, uh, understanding of the word wild. It’s wild like you use the word primal. You know, the, the, something that to be the real, the real me, the real man, the real means the one that is inside of me that can express a lot of things that society didn’t let me to express.

I was, I don’t know, uh, have you heard about Brené Brown? I don’t know. Brené Brown. Uh,

Marc: okay. Yep. Yep. Her work on the game is critical. Very

Carlos: famous. Brina Brown brought one, I don’t know if she knows, but in an unconscious way, I don’t know if she knows, maybe she knows, she is introducing this concept to [00:26:00] a male community in the United States.

Marc: Yeah, I think that’s true.

Carlos: She is teaching, or yeah, teaching, let’s use that word, because she does research on vulnerability. The way she defines vulnerability, I think is a fantastic way to understand what vulnerability really is. Because as you know, the traditional image of a stereotype of men, you should never show your vulnerability because that is equal weakness.

What she found out that the impact of leaders showing vulnerability was exactly the opposite on people. The impact on people was That male is strong. So what’s a way to express strength, not weakness. And she defines vulnerability in three words that I love it. She says, [00:27:00] vulnerability is emotional exposure, risk.

And if you take those three together, there’s no way not to be vulnerable in this life because the three are all the time present in our life. What I’m going to say is by default, we are vulnerable and that is amazing. And that’s why I’m saying, I don’t know if she knows, but this is another way to. Allow men to accept what they are feeling for years and years and years and to bring all this sensitivity or emotional exposure to the surface and showing that to be strong doesn’t mean not to show that.

To be a strong means how you [00:28:00] deal with it

Marc: and communicate it right and allowing something magical to happen. You know, I talked to a lot of my guys because again, therapy is now a lot more mainstream and they talk about talking about their feelings as a way to get something right. Oh, I’m going to express to my wife how I’m hurt so that she doesn’t do the thing anymore.

And I’m like, That’s not a vulnerability. That’s persuasion, right? That’s like leverage.

Carlos: Or manipulation if you want to use it. Yeah.

Marc: Whereas I think what you said is really critical, which is also, I guess, what Brene Brown said is like that uncertainty aspect, real vulnerability is having a conversation where you don’t know what’s going to happen.

Right. You actually don’t know where it’s going to go. You’re just being as honest as possible and something magical could actually happen. You know, something really connected, really happen. And I think for guys, I like to make that distinction because for guys, that’s terrifying for us often, but if we keep practicing it, it can create a life that is really special, you know, and like, great.

Yeah. [00:29:00]

Carlos: It’s also understanding that

gender is a thin line. Yeah. And don’t get me wrong, I’m MD, so I know that we have a different body, a different brain regarding hormones and all this stuff. I mean, don’t get me wrong. But we share more things than we think, than we thought. One of my workshops is female brain, male brain. And what I present is, Of course, we have the same brain.

The difference is that we, we trained our brain in a different way. Based for many, through, through millions of years. Yeah? So the female brain was trained in one way, the male brain was trained in a different way. Therefore, we have different characteristics today. That’s fine. But the essence is the same.

Feelings are the same. Emotions are the same. If you read, [00:30:00] uh, Paul Ekman, that was the guy who defined the six basic emotions around the world, there’s no gender difference. And don’t get me wrong. We are not the same. I’m saying we share similar things, but we express it in a different way. And that is fine.

Marc: Yep. Yep. Yeah. I think the thing is like, we’re different, but equal. Whereas so much in the past was like different, but men are better. Right? No. No. We’re different, but we need each other, right? I think male male and females need each other, and we need to be able to express these energies to, like, balance each other out.

But I am curious, right? So, I mean, I studied neuroscience in undergrad. That’s what my undergraduate degree was in, and I’m curious where it is now around gender differences, what the difference between the male and female brain is. If you could give our listeners a little bit of information about that, because I think gender right now is a big topic of debate.

There’s a lot of fluidity, right? And which I think is also great, right? There’s a lot of different options, which I think is also [00:31:00] great, but there is some biological or at the very least, you know, conditioning, like you said, conditioned differences. So I’m curious from your expertise, like what some of those might be.

Carlos: Again, we need to understand that. The same brain was influenced by different hormones for many, many years and different experiences, but the sustratum was the same. Another thing that is so important to understand, and that’s what I explained in my workshop. I tell you, I tell you, I share with you how I do it.

I talked in my workshop until the middle of the workshop a little bit more. I talk about the female brain and male brain. I don’t talk about females and males. And I describe the characteristic of female brain and male brain. [00:32:00] Because the truth is that 100 percent of human being, we have both that expressed in a different proportion.

I expressed, tell me if I can explain myself, please Mark, challenge me if I’m not explaining myself.

Marc: So, yeah, I mean, what I’m hearing, right? It’s like we both have male and female within us, but different people have different ratios of expression, and that’s the gender, right? That’s that. That’s the gender fluidity.

It’s like nothing. Nothing.

Carlos: Exactly. It’s nothing to do with sexual orientation. This is a different story.

Marc: Right? Exactly. Yeah,

Carlos: that’s a different story. This is about that. The. The key characteristic of a female, what we call female brain or male brain, are in every single brain in different proportions. To give you a medical component, I mean, you know that there are certain hormones that are mainly female hormones.

The estrogens and progesterone, yeah? But, and [00:33:00] testosterone is a male hormone. Do you know, did you know that male and female, we have the three.

Marc: Yeah, we have different mixes. Yeah.

Carlos: Exactly. A different proportion. That’s it. But male have estrogen and progesterone and female, they have testosterone as well. So what I’m trying to say is, again, don’t get me wrong.

It’s not that we are the same. I’m saying we are dealing with the same challenges we are dealing, but we were just Building different personas in a positive way, based on how we were combining things inside of our brain, but there’s no difference regarding one higher or one lower, the data doesn’t exist.

And when I finished my workshop saying, then why we talk so much about differences, what are the differences, the gender difference? The gender differences [00:34:00] is not about gender. The gender differences is about power. Males were using power against females, says to keep the control, but not because they were better in a matter, a matter in, in, in, in society with, with females at the dominant.

The math, math, the archive in English. Yeah. I mean, the pattern is exactly the same. This, the signs, the signals of power are expressing the same way, but in the other direction, you know what I mean?

Marc: Yeah. Power is power, but power doesn’t care about your gender. Power

Carlos: is power. So that’s, that’s the reason.

Number one, that we have to be so respectful of each other because we are sharing a lot of things at the same [00:35:00] level. And we can help each others on how to express in a better way ourself what will be the best way to express ourself. And again, we are not the same, please, the other day. I love it. I, I read the, the, the title of a book called Women’s Are Not Little Men.

I don’t know, and I love it. It’s about medicine, you know about Yeah, yeah, yeah. About, about all the, all the biases in, in, in the medical world. All the research were done in mail. And they extrapolate it to female and it’s a huge mistake.

Marc: Yeah.

Carlos: Yeah. So we are not the same. But if we can collaborate in the real and profound way, oh my God, that is the name of the game.

Marc: Mm hmm.

Carlos: Mm hmm. That’s why I wanted to bring this that when Iron John started, Pincola stays with [00:36:00] women that run with wolves also started. So they were, they went in parallel. So this need of a new masculinity was connected with a new femininity as well. Femininity as well. They go together. They need to go together.

Marc: They need to go together. I agree. I agree. It’s like, it’s, this isn’t just a men’s movement. It’s like you said, it’s a worldwide movement. It’s everybody. I Needs to be a part of it. And yeah. And Iron John, right towards the end of the book, he talks about this image of the hermaphrodite, right. The male and female person.

And he talks about how like we need that within ourselves, is what you’re saying. Right? We need a balance of both of those energies and both those brains, and we need it in the world. ’cause right now there’s so much, yeah, there’s so much pain and hurt and misunderstanding and judgment. And I love that you’re talking about like starting to build those bridges and having people communicate, you know, and be able to be vulnerable, be real.

Carlos: Absolutely. Absolutely. So definitely we can help each other a lot if we understand. [00:37:00] If we understand the core of the topic.

Marc: Exactly. Yeah, I think if like, if we get out of our own way, right, if we can like shed our ego and take those masks off, like you were saying, we can actually really connect. So we’re going to move towards our next commercial break.

When we come back, I want to hear about what you think the future of this movement will be. You know, if you could wave the magic wand. Where do you think the world would be if, if this stuff, um, you know, keeps gaining momentum listeners and there, and we’ll see on the other side.

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Marc: Welcome back to the show. So I want to dive right in. So Carlos, where do you see this movement? [00:40:00] Like you said, it’s both male and female. It’s a worldwide movement. Where do you see it going or what’s your hope for where it would go?

Carlos: Okay. I came to my mind is I work a lot in leadership, you know, I mean, in organization, that’s my topic in coaching.

And I was also fascinated when I learned about what is called servant leadership. I don’t know if you’ve heard about it. So the, the pattern of the effective leader is not the macho man anymore. When you have this kind of powerful night in the white horse, you know, with the sword that it doesn’t work, they never can get the best from the team.

Well, it’s already proven through a lot of research. Is what is called the, the profile, what is called the servant leadership is what really [00:41:00] works. And if you analyze profoundly, deeply, I mean, what are the characteristics of the servant leadership is what we are talking about. It’s a leader that will, will consider and take care of people’s emotions and feelings and will be listening properly.

He’s the one that will ask for proposal and not tell what to do all the time, and we can go on and on and semester. But again, inside of me, I con, I start connecting dots and I say, wow, those were the characteristic of the new masculinity that I was involved for so many years. So, what I’m trying to say is, it’s fascinating how that energy is spreading all over the world, but it still doesn’t have enough marketing.

Yeah, yeah, but I don’t care. But what I’m trying to [00:42:00] say is still the marketing is about the, the, the, the, the, why, the, the, why the night? Yeah. And I mean, in the whole, but it doesn’t have the same impact. So where the world is moving, what I’m trying to say is that movement, let’s call it the new masculinity, the new femininity, femininity is unstoppable.

There’s no way back. I’m completely convinced. But we run under the surface. That’s why I’m saying that doesn’t have good marketing. And that is good because if we can start spreading that word, like, uh, in, in, in, in, in mankind project, they, they say one minute at a time, you know, I know if you remember that they’re saying, I don’t know if they’re one minute at the time, it could be more than one minute, minute at a time, minute at a time.

But in a way we, [00:43:00] in the way we raise our children. Boys or girls, in the way we deal with peers, in the way we talk with our friends, that is what is making the difference. And that is what I call is unstoppable. I was observing even, I don’t know, comedians. And, you know, comedians use mainly stereotypes to make jokes.

And if you pay attention, I cannot bring examples now, even the stereotypes in humor are different.

Marc: Yeah,

Carlos: they are not joking about the same things. So what I’m trying to say is if you pay attention, this is a, this is a healthy epidemic process. And I hope that will become a pandemic process, healthy all over the world.

And that is happening. So then your question is, how do I see it? [00:44:00] Okay, it’s true. And, and, and, and, uh, I have another workshop workshop on unconscious cognitive biases. All the biases, there are many, many, gender is only one, okay? There are many. But in one moment I present one slide and the slide says quota, quota, q u a o t a.

You know the quota is, you know what the quota is. The quota, and I always present to the audience, what do you think about, about the quota? I mean, because diversity is a fact, but it still doesn’t have the right place in the tape. This is true. The quota is like a organizations, companies are obliged to have, I don’t know, 30 percent of women and diverse people, like minority in their vote, whatever.[00:45:00]

It doesn’t sound nice, because it’s not about merit, it’s not about knowledge, it’s not about skill, it’s about because you’re a minority. But my conclusion today is I don’t care.

Everyone needs to have the opportunity, and if they got to the table through that door, that is a small door, I don’t care, but they’re already there, so we need to keep pushing that at the moment that that will become normal. Yeah. Yeah. I told you they have the chance to live in Toronto. Toronto, statistically, is the most diverse city in the world.

65 percent were not born in Canada. I’m not talking now about male or female, I’m talking diversity in general. Diversity number one in the world. Integration is inclusion. It’s a different [00:46:00] story. That takes time. But, but it’s a matter of time. It’s a matter of time. I’m not saying that it’s not going to happen.

It’s going to happen, yes, yes. It says a mother of child. So, I’m sorry. Sorry, my dog needs to go. Give me one minute. I

Marc: can talk a little bit. Yeah. I, I really like what you’re saying because I think what you’re talking about is that you can’t go back. And that makes it unstoppable. And I feel the same way with a lot of the guys that I work with that end up going through this and end up having these experiences they don’t, you can’t go back.

It’s almost like an Alice in Wonderland through the looking glass moment. Once you see the other side, you can’t go back to where you were. There’s, there’s this like awakening aspect, I think, to it. So, and like you said, as they’re going to raise their kids as more emotional beings, as more vulnerable beings, as more open beings, it’s something that [00:47:00] it’s just going to hopefully just keep percolating down the generations.

And it’s good to hear you say that because when I look at the world, I mean, I think it’s super political, but I look at, you know, the rise of Trump in America or the rise of other, like, kind of macho men leaders right now, very nationalist leaders around the world, it can feel scary. But it is good to hear that and I believe it that that this under the surface thing is bubbling and maybe these leaders are kind of the death cry of that toxic masculinity.

You know, maybe this is like our shadow being displayed.

Carlos: Mark, to be honest, I didn’t want to bring that to the table, but it was in my head all the time. That is one of the, at the moment that there is a huge change going on in the world, in this case, let’s talk about new masculinity, the polarity, the opposite will grow even stronger.

Yes. So, what I’m, I mean, what happened, I didn’t want, because you’re, you’re in America, I didn’t want to go there talking [00:48:00] about politics nowadays. But Trump is a representation of the old stereotype. Absolutely. A hundred percent,

Marc: a hundred percent, like two

Carlos: hundred percent. There’s a lot of people, but, but Trump represents another archetype.

No, not only the macho men, they represent the archetype of Superman. I can do whatever. That’s an archetype that all of us, we have, it’s a totally, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a fantasy, you know, I mean, it’s cartoon. I mean, this is a, it’s not true, but that is what he represents. And let’s be mindful and let’s be respectful.

There’s a lot of people that still are looking for the messiahs in the wrong way. He plays the messiah, so he can save you. Do you know, do you know the triangle of, uh, karma? The triangle is a triangle with three areas. One is the perpetrator, the [00:49:00] victim, the victim, and the savior. Yeah. I, I don’t know a person that can play better that triangle than Trump.

Really good point. Really good. He moves all the time. Exactly. Perpetrator always, there is a perpetrator. He’s a savior or he’s the victim. And that game never gets, got stopped if you don’t stop. So I, I mean, I cannot deny that. I’m really worried about that because even though I don’t live there, but then in one moment I’ve had in a moment, I say, wow, that expression.

It’s showing that the other side is there. The opposite is that that is still maybe again, that’s how marketing, you know, but it’s, it’s, it’s, but it’s there. He cannot survive if the opposite will not be in the, in the [00:50:00] middle. Makes sense. What I’m saying.

Marc: Yeah, I agree. I think he’s a reaction. I think he’s the shadow form of masculinity that is like clinging on for dear life.

You know,

Carlos: absolutely. I love it. And thanks. I mean, thanks to open this door because I really didn’t want to do it because I don’t want to talk about politics. This is not about politics. It’s about stereotype. And it’s about archetypes. And it’s about how people perceived this kind of savior. But that also means that the other, the healthy side is, is already there.

Marc: And I think to extend your thought, right? I think the toxic masculinity, if you want to call it that, or the bully masculinity, macho is really threatened by the new masculinity. Because guys like us who have been through this, we look at those guys and they don’t impress us anymore. We see that they’re actually weak, that they’re actually fragile, that, you know, you can touch them and they shatter into a thousand pieces, you know?

So it is like, it’s [00:51:00] very, they’re very scared of us, even though they would never admit that. I think like the threat, I think it’s a threat to the patriarchy and a threat to, you know, the old ways of being.

Carlos: If you have 15 minutes to waste, you can listen to my TED talk because it’s about that. It’s about the bully.

It’s about the bully. The toxic leader. And how they don’t understand their own emotions. And what happens when you put it in front of them and they say, Oh my God. I never thought about it in this way. Most of them are very, very. No, no weak because they’re strong, but they have a lot of fears. Most of them.

Yeah. What they learned when they were young that attack him, they were protected. That’s all. So they, they were keeping the danger far away. If they attack first, [00:52:00] that was a defense mechanism, unhealthy, a hundred percent unhealthy for them. First, I coach a lot of bullies and I tell you it’s fascinating when they’re very smart people, by the way, but when you explain The situation from a different perspective, they got, they completely got, and they say, Oh my God.

Marc: Totally. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, all the guys I work with similarly are like recovering. Right. And they talk about, Oh yeah. The same thing. They’re always attacking, pushing away, but underneath it. Yeah. They’re afraid they’re lonely. Right. They never have real connections with people. They always, they feel like a lot of pressure.

Cause I always have to have that like mask and facade on. So yeah, they, they are sympathetic characters. They’re not. Yeah. Evil, right? They’re not the villains. Um, yeah, that’s why

Carlos: we are not talking about mental health issues like a psychopath. We are not talking about that. We are talking about, you know, this is more, more close to normal.

Yeah. [00:53:00]

Marc: Yeah. So, you know, we’re nearing the end, but I’m curious, you know, where could people learn more about you? Where can people get started on some of this work? Um, how can people learn and interact with you more?

Carlos: First of all, okay, I have a website. It’s carlosdavidovich. com. I mean, you can, you can write an email to me.

I will be delighted to discuss this with whoever wants to discuss. Uh, my LinkedIn profile, I mean, my profile, the way to access me is more through my work, you know, I mean, mainly. I would say those two things. I mean, my website and the LinkedIn profile is the easiest way to reach me.

Marc: Great. And those are both linked in the show notes.

Um, definitely check out your Ted talk. I’ll put that in there as well. Um, as well as the other workshops that you run. Um, I really appreciate you coming on the show. I’m excited to continue the conversation in a future episode at some point. Um, it’s really great to like, just hear your thoughts and get a sense of, yeah, just a sense of lineage with this movement, you know, and a sense of connection and community of not feeling so alone, right?

That this is. This is happening, you know, like this [00:54:00] wave coming in, it’s crashing. So thank you so much, Carlos, for being next

Carlos: time. If we got together again, we can talk about my book. There’s five brains because, and that is another way to present the same situation.

Marc: Yeah. Love to have it. Love to have the conversation.

Um, so yeah, thank you so much for joining us. Listeners, thank you so much for tuning in, and we’ll see you next week. Another episode of the Men’s Therapy Podcast.

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