Male Sexuality: Myths vs. Reality w/ Aaron Eigler

Male Sexuality: Myths vs. Reality w/ Aaron Eigler

December 22, 2023

In this episode, our guest Aaron Eigler a sex, family, and relationship therapist helps us to breakdown the myths and realities of male sexuality. This taboo topic is overshadowed by locker room talk and the porn industry. We’ll talk about the reality of male sexuality, sexual satisfaction, and sexual trauma.

Episode Transcript:

[Music] Mark azoulay is an industry leader in

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Psychotherapy and men’s mental health he’s helped countless guys get back on their feet deepen their relationships

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and Excel in their lives now he’s taken all that he has learned and is sharing it with you in each episode Mark will

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interview an expert in the field of masculinity and men’s work we’ll cover topics such as emotional intelligence

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masculine identity anger management Financial Health trauma recovery marriage and divorce ethics and

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spirituality tune in and become a better man welcome back to the men’s therapy podcast I’m your host Mark a and I’m

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here with Aaron igler he’s a therapist in Boulder Colorado who works with men in relationships men’s sexuality and

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men’s issues Aon welcome to the show how’s it going Mark thanks for having me yeah I’m excited to have you on i’ I’ve

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had um your friend Melissa rtis on a handful of times I know you guys work in the same practice and I’m always excited

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to interview local Colorado therapists because it’s a great way to Spotlight people and just see like what our state

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is doing totally yeah and thanks to Melissa for introducing us yeah she’s

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amazing yeah she’s she’s phenomenal and you can go back listen to her episodes um earlier on in the show but Ain we’ll

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start with you so in the first segment we talk about kind of your personal story around masculinity and men’s work

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um so let’s just Dive Right In like what was your messages you got about masculinity and being a man growing up

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yeah yeah so going back to the beginning I uh I am the youngest of three kids

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from my my dad and my mom and I have a younger sister from my dad’s second marriage but um my mom is a an immigrant

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was an immigrant to the US from Israel and her parents are were as survivors were survivors of the Holocaust and so I

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grew up in in this Jewish household but my my parents divorced when I was two so

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I grew up in um you know spending all the time pretty much at my mom’s house

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and every other weekend at my dad’s house and my dad was a very successful cardiologist

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in in LA and um you know pseudo famous doctor um and

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so it was interesting growing up in that in that environment because at one I’m

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I’m living under this this my mom who’s working her butt off to make ends me

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right we’re living kind of middle class uh environments and and then I I go to

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my dad’s house every the weekend and it’s so different and basically I think the messages I got

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from that about being a man is that you know negative messages Western

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messages that work career is the most important thing it’s the

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prioritized thing it’s more important than family right it’s status and money

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over love and connection at least that’s how I kind of saw it growing up right I

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have a much more nuanced View today um but yeah just the Classic meritocracy

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work hard uh make your you know be a self-made person I think I got mess m is

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that you have to do things alone um discipline

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structure um and yeah and

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so that was that’s that was the family Dynamic both my grandfathers passed away early on in my childhood I don’t really

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have much memory of any of them and and then on my mom’s

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side right there is just it was very very un emotional I’m the young I’m her

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youngest child I’m kind of the source for

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her meaning and and enjoyment and fun and so I think I learned early on that I

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was well I didn’t I didn’t learn this till later but I think early on I picked up that I was a source of

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um for my mom to to heal and to feel good and I think what happened is I

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learned in that early age that my emotions I learned to push my own emotions down because I was there

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supporting other people that needed it and so it was a long journey for me to

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understand [Music] um that I have my own needs my own wants

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and that I’m deserving of getting those Mets uh yeah and then I guess later on I

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grew up and um made really good friends and I thing that like really turned I

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remember being like a really sad kid in Middle School um kind of anxious maybe

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depressed and I joined a Jewish Youth Group AA and there I am surrounded by

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all these boys all these young men and the brotherhood around that and I think

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that really allowed me to have that need to open up to feel that camaraderie and

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very I’m so lucky that at that young age I had this group of of young boys that

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we can be that mirror for each other right we could gain we can feel success

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we can feel leadership we can feel that safety and that emotional vulnerability

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that I think most boys at that age never had and so that was a really critical uh

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point in my mascul masculine identity developments um and also there there’s

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the girl group and interaction and and growing up and and having like really

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really secure relationships with women at that age so I feel really blessed

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that I had that opportunity yeah I think that’s incredible right and something that the jewi culture does really well

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is having a lot of these structures especially for young people I think to like connect and be in a more communal

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setting instead of the kind of traditional Western thing of like you know King of the castle right like just like lock it down with nuclear family so

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yeah I’m hearing like a progression let me hear say correct for you of like from provider right either you provide money

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and status and material good or you provide Emotion and Joy and laughter and humor and things like that but it sounds

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like when you went to the Jewish uh program it was more about connection and more like reciprocal you were it sounds

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like you actually getting fed by that yeah and it’s I saw that from my dad’s

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side right the the money the the success the the um the discipline the right the

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some Jewish things right the the intelligence the critical thinking and then I fought against that so much and

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really align with the fun with the connection with the

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empathy and um to the point where I I like you know

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I push those other things that are important way um right because they don’t feel

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good as much and they’re hard yeah yeah I think it’s a common

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thing I do the same thing I think of our millennial generation is like we kind of threw the baby out with the bath water

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right we pushed away a lot of the traditional masculine roles because they either weren’t working in our family or

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you know a lot of in my case right my my mom went through the feminist movement and was really good for her but then her

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parenting was around you know how men can be Predators or how they can scam you or how all they create in the world

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is violence right like there a lot of like negative messes that I think confused me a lot as a kid growing up um

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it took me you know until you know my late 20s to really reclaim masculinity you know um a lot of my life was just

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pushing it away I’m curious is that story similar to yours yeah I I

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think yeah to an extent um I think I I never had a conflict with

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me in terms of how I am as a man in this world other than kind

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of the shame that comes with how I feel

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like I’m supposed to be in terms of like I have ad ADHD right and so things

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like focus and discipline things like

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um sound intelligence right those things that I I’ve picked up as as things that Society

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views as important for men to have right and and I think you’re right I think

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it’s taken me that is a similar progression where it had even in my early 30s is where I really started to

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understand how those messages have impacted my insecurities and my self-image and my self

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worth yeah yeah so I’m curious about the shame piece I think a lot of guys feel

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that you know um part of theory of traditional masculinity rights I think men are inherently hierarchical we very

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linear luckily in modern society there’s many hierarchies it’s not just like the biggest strongest dude but I think we

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still like you know rankings and points and score and tiers and all that kind of

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stuff like our brain tends to kind of like work that way oh my God tell my partner right I Quant I quantify

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everything right that’s the whole thing it’s like just spreadsheets pros and cons right like just dissect dissect

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dissect so yeah it sounds like as a kid you felt like you were at the bottom of some of those hierarchies that must have been

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really difficult right to be aware of them and feel like you couldn’t quite measure up in some

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way yeah and I think right as a kid you don’t have the the language and the the

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self-concept to really put anything into words but right of course like searching

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for Dad’s approval right like trying to navigate your way in society like what

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does success mean for you you what do you want and I think what happens is we don’t ever get

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the chance to really understand what’s important to us and and what we want and

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why we want it like I still have trouble understanding like why do I why am I why do I want that or what do I want I think

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it therapy all the time I’m just like is that what you want I don’t know right

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yeah that just like cultural conditioning or is it actually who you are yeah I think yeah for for most men

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at least in Western Society it’s like yeah the game playing of the game can overshadow our own personal development

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because the game just feels so ubiquitous and so urgent right like everyone’s running and you’re like okay

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[ __ ] I better start running but do I even care about this race I’m even in this race like why how did I end up here

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but it’s just you know gun fires and you gotta go yeah and then you end up somewhere and you how did how did I get

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here and why did I get here and yeah you know a career path that you don’t put a

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lot of thought into or that you’re told will give you some status or that will make you money um but not really

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understanding what how’s that going to be fulfilling for you yeah so tell us about your version of that story you

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said you started to come to Awakening early 30s like what was your kind of sprint out the gate yeah I mean so

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College I I majored in Psychology and history

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um and and not quite knowing what what I wanted to do do actually backtrack a

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little bit so this is kind of everything kind of came full circle um I if you ask my mom at age 12 what I

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wanted to be she would have told you a sex therapist I was you know exposed to porn

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at a really young age uh I think my older siblings found some VHS tapes in

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my mom’s closet and so not being old enough to know it was really wrong to

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show me they showed me when I was probably like five or six got into porn and

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but it didn’t affect me negatively in terms of how I connected with people but

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what it did is just exposed me to sex and the importance of sex and to me was

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actually this like fun creative silly that’s how I I internalized it and then

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I see my parents kind of really like not happy not enjoying their lives separately and I saw their their Liv is

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like at my 12-year-old brain is like they just need to [ __ ] more right they need to have more sex and have connection um so I just had this notion

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that like ah the sex therapist would be really fun anyways I go to school I I

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graduate I teach I end up teaching abroad and then I kind of come back to Denver and I land I I start I’m trying

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to find a job in the music industry it doesn’t really pan out I start subbing and then I I was a teacher for um years

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essentially and so automatically falling into that like caring empathetic role

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right uh that that was naturally what I was doing good as a young kid right

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taking care of my family my mom right being that nurture um and but it wasn’t for me

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right it wasn’t uh it wasn’t my passion it wasn’t necessarily my strength right

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my best teaching job was when I was a music teacher right my ADHD I can like be creative

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and and have kids just play and be silly and ultimately it didn’t work out it was

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too much it wasn’t my passion and I ended up going back to school become a

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school counselor actually and then within the first semester I realized that oh my God I’m in this program this

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umbrella counseling program and all I have to do is sign a form and I’m gonna

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become I can become a couples and family therapist and then within that I can

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just work harder and work and get my certified Sex Therapy credential and full circle from 12 to

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like I came around to being holy [ __ ] this has like always felt good always

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felt like the natural thing and I just kind of skirted around it for 20 something years that’s a great story

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yeah it sounds like you’re to find something that could really you know jive with your interest and being a way that’s helping people that still has

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thator nurturing role exactly

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way so we’re going to go to a first commercial break but when we come back I want to talk more about Sex Therapy

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especially from like the male perspective right I think um male sexuality is really misunderstood and

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there’s a lot of you know negative messages around it you know again some of the stuff we talked about earlier of like being a predator or being like a

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wild animal or you know the all that kind of stuff right the hos masculinity messages um and I’m curious you what

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you’re what you learned about and what you’re discovering with the work that you do with cents right on excited yeah

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theapy podcast.com now back to the men’s therapy podcast

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welcome back to the men’s therapy podcast I’m your host Mark a I’m here with Aron igler and we’re talking about

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Mal sexuality and Mal seexual satisfaction Erin I’m really happy to talk about this topic with you because it’s something that is both unbelievably

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taboo to talk about and perpetuates almost every aspect of our soci right it’s one of those like Shadow things

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that that are um underly so much of American culture specifically so I’m curious like how would you defin male

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sexuality oh I don’t know if I’ve ever been asked to just Define sexuality what is it yeah yeah I

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don’t know I think it that part of it is a a

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natural drive to to Fe feel good

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to to connect and and to me there’s a whole

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element of of of playfulness um

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and becoming you know part of it it’s becoming a whole right I think there’s a

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whole Soulful element to sexuality yeah there’s like a spiritual layer right of

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that Union with somebody else yeah yeah yeah so so what are some of the issues

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that guys in your practice talk about like what gets in the way of that Union or in the way of that having fun

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yeah let’s see I mean the shame in all

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the forms you know and anxiety so whether it be performance anxiety that

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leads to erectile dysfunction or premature ejaculation or

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disconnection from their partner um leading to discrepancies of

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desire which is really really common where one partner is wanting sex more

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than the other and uh that especially for mascul you know in in in our society

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is men as being the the ones that are portrayed as the people that need to go

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after it right pursue the hunters right if they’re feeling if they’re not in that role right feeling like there’s

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definitely something wrong with them and that brings on guilt and shame as well yeah you know when I talk with some

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of my guys they often you know talk about the per performance anxiety right I think for a lot of men sex can feel

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like a pop quiz like a test right of like can I please my partner am I going to last long like is this going to be

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good right like and I think especially with our generation that tends to be more focused on our partner I think than

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previous generations and it it freaks them out right I mean it freaks them the [ __ ] out because they’re like what if I

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fail you know what if I come too fast and now I’m in that refractory period and I’m just sitting here right and my

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partner didn’t orgasm right or what if I can’t finish right and she just gets tired or bored or whatever right um what

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do you think of that do you talk with guys that have that kind of that fear that goes into it yeah and I think so

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much it comes to what our perception of what sex is right and and I think you

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know going back to the you know that me talking about forign right I think we get those images that like sex is Right

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intercourse right penis and vaginal intercourse right

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there’s your dick is supposed to make the girl come and you’re supposed to

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have a big orgasm right at the end and so there’s a very limited definition in

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our brains of what sex is and if we’re not living up to that

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definition then there’s something wrong with us right where sex is so much more

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than just penetration and and what happens is it leads men to

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to not be able to tune in to what they’re feeling and what is pleasureful

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for them right because there’s this goal there’s this expectation and then the anxiety comes in and takes them out of

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being present in the moment right so it’s so difficult to just enjoy what’s happening right the connection the love

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the intimacy right the eroticism the play right there’s so many things that aren’t being attended

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to that um there’s a lot of there just so much that people are missing out on

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yeah can you say more about that like what’s get left on the table what is in the more expensive definition of

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sex yeah I think it all kind of comes down

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to the meaning you get from it right is

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it is is sex purely physical pleasure is

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sex about connection is it an escape is it a place to play and

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be silly and let that inner weird you come out and be accepted and be loved

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right and if there’s a part of you that’s not able to come out right that

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is is dying to come out and it’s being restricted whether self restricted

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or feeling like you’re going to be judged by your partner to let that out

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so I think they’re really has to be an inventory taken of what sex means for

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you what you want to get out of it and it’s so different and so indiv individualized for every

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person but then when the thing that we do want and the thing that we love and the thing that excites us isn’t nurtured

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or isn’t um accepted or validated by ourselves or by others then we’re going

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to get that um you know that shame peace that

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anxiety the the emptiness that comes with that yeah when

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I hear you talk I just think of yeah how restrictive porn being you know the main sexual education you know vehicle is and

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how heteronormative it can be and how um in some ways very like plain and vanilla

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it can be when I hear you talk I think about alternative lifestyle or Kink or fetishes or things like that um is that

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in the scope of your work do you help people develop and understand those yeah I mean I so

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so I’m you know I’m I’m new in this field right I’m graduating School in a

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month from now woo um actually by the time you hear this probably I’ve just graduated and

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um and so all of this stuff that’s coming to me I feel like I can because

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I’m coming at it from a lens of curiosity right my my job right our job

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as therapists right is to put ourselves in the other person’s shoes right to

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understand their perspective right because before you can understand before

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you can help your client make changes you got to understand what they want and what they need right and have them have

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empathy for them have them build empathy for themselves right compassion for themselves

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and then so I feel in that way I can work with clients that are coming for me

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with anything right whe whether it is you know like Kink you know if they’re in the BDM Community if they’re swinging

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if they’re open if they’re polyamory if they’re into you know if they’re disgusted by the porn that they watch um

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I can work with all that yeah I I guess I be curious like how you might help

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somebody develop and expand their definition of sex and sexuality right because I think a lot of people I think

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men in particular right we don’t we don’t think about it critically right we just kind of watch the porn and then we

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execute the program and like for some of us that feels right for some of us it feels like maybe something’s missing but

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I don’t I don’t see that much exploration um with I think most men uh

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so how would you like encourage that or how would you help somebody start to Brad in their Horizons a little bit yeah

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I think it all I mean not to you know kind of go back to it right it’s it’s

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understanding what their desires are right and that they have needs and that

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they have wants right I think for men right it is like we’re saying that often

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it’s just like the want is that you should be able you should be the strong man that

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pursues the the girl and you know and Men try that and maybe aren’t feeling

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good about it right they’re not getting something and so it’s just expanding their awareness of of their what turns

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them on on right what where what messaging have you gotten around sex so

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exploring uh you know their upbringing and their exposure to sex right what were some positive and negative

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experiences that you’ve had how do you know you’re enjoying yourself how do you know your partner’s enjoying you right

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and and so how do you communicate about sex and and so talking

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about really just giving men the space in the room room to dive

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into uh you know most men that I see just have never had that open space to

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talk about it so that’s really just the first step is to have that non-judgmental you know open space to

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feel safe enough right I never say it’s a safe space but I say I try to make it a safe enough space for you to take a

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risk yeah completely right I think most guys we talk about it in like locker room talk at the best and I think most

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guys especially as we get older like don’t talk about sex right something that is very much hidden from the public

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eye um you know we’re not you know you’re not going to like your kids’s birthday party and talking about sex with another parent you know like it

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just really doesn’t come up um in most you know I guess the average household right um so I think it is really

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critical to create those spaces where guys can dig into that and they can be okay saying that they’re dissatisfied

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you know something that I see with a lot of my male clients in a relationship is I think I think with female clients too

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but we’ll stick with men like I think we’re so easy to blame our partner right like she’s not doing this we’re talking

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h on normative right now but like she’s not doing this she’s not doing that you know she sucks she’s a [ __ ] whatever right but to turn that gaze inward or

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even just what you’re saying right to to change the language of like oh I want this right or I desire that is really

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hard for a lot of guys you know we can often point out what’s wrong but very rarely can identify what we actually

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need yeah and it’s really hard hard for you know you to point that mirror back

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and say how what’s your role in all of this right in the

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relationship you know so instead of blaming the partner right it’s a system right it’s a couple but what is your

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role in the sex life not being good

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right yeah for sure you know me me one one of my friends when we uh talk about

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guys in masculinity right we uh have this kind of joke or this Theory right that things that all guys think they’re good

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at most guys are horrible at right so like sex being one right like not many

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men will ever admit to you that they are not good at STX they don’t feel confident or they don’t feel comfortable I I just had I just had a client

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recently in this last week that he’s in his 50s he’s had really low desire in

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his in his in his marriage and he’s literally in the it’s only my second

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session with him and kind of a light bulb like hm I just was never attentive

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to my partner’s needs to their pleasure it was always about my

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pleasure and they had a role reversal in their marriage right where she wanted to be the pursuer and

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he lost that power structure and just killed the vibe for

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him yeah because he was just kind of pigeon holding into that one thing right that one kind of heteronormative point

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exactly yeah yeah yeah I I wonder about the

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other kind of typology as well I wonder if you see this of like the nice guy typology where I think as a lot of men

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we we equate like doing things with sex right like oh if I like you know do my

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chores and clean the house and make money and like you know I’m like nice guy then you know Black Box sex right

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like I will get sex or my partner will pursue me or I’ll get rewarded with sex um I see you nodding a lot so it sounds

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like that’s Dynamic you see and I see it being like incredibly uh disappointing for a lot of guys because that’s not how it works right you don’t get this like

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reward or this payout most of the time yeah it’s interesting and I’m

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seeing a lot it’s interesting getting into this work because it’s been eye openening for

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me being where the male right partner of a

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heteronormative relationship is the more sensitive the

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more emotional yeah right the and and the woman being more closed off

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more critical more judgmental and men trying to navigate

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that role of like I’m the nice guy I’m doing all these things right and recognizing that right some of that

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might be unattractive to their partner their female partner who is wants to be

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feminized wants to be right yeah um

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wants that classic male to take over and have that energy yeah I see that especially you

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with Millennial clients like I think as a generation we are like very depolarized and we’re fighting some

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level of biology or Primos sexuality or whatever you want to call it I think leaves a lot of couples very confused

32:49

you know because I think as men we were trained probably you know with good intentions to be more sensitive and women were trained to be more masculine

32:55

and to you know go and be more aggressive and now we’re you know in our 30s and it’s like [ __ ] what do we what

33:01

do we do now you know we were kind of trained in the opposite role yeah it’s really

33:06

confusing yeah so we’re gonna go to our next commercial break when we come back I want to dive more into that also

33:12

present if you have some exercises or even introspection prompts that our listeners could use if they want to

33:17

start to explore the sexual dynamic in their own life or in their relationship so if you’re listening hang on in there

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www.men theapy podcast.com now back to the men’s therapy podcast

36:08

welcome back to the show I’m your host Mark aay and I’m here with Aon igler and we’re talking about sexuality specifically male sexuality and some of

36:15

the struggles um and I think just conditioning we have growing up uh where we laugh Le last left you was we were

36:23

talking about how the millennial generation I think specifically is pretty depolarized that I think a lot of

36:29

men are in that more traditional feminine role and a lot of women are in that more masculine role um do you see

36:34

that in in the work that you do Aaron or the relationships that you have out there in the

36:39

world yeah I I I think in terms of I see that in couples especially

36:49

emotionally right where a lot of men take on the more kind of

36:55

sensitive uh um nurturing role in the relationship

37:02

and that can be definitely polarizing confusing um especially if if their

37:09

partner if that might be a turn on or a turn off for their partner and so that

37:14

can be like pretty much navigated right you know as as like as you talk about modern modern men right

37:21

just in our education emotional intelligence becoming more of a thing right we are you know training our

37:29

ourselves to be a little bit more ATT tuned to our emotions but that could that have a negative impact in a

37:35

relationship I know which is such a scam I I I I think it’s there I see it

37:41

with a lot of the guys that work with too is I think as men you know our listeners have to understand right that

37:47

we are like infants in this process right like we have been you know as a Generations right like closed off to you

37:54

know emotional conversations for a very long time and actually shamed for having feelings at all right so I think a lot

38:00

of guys try to Pivot in the other direction and they can come across as almost victim or as too fragile or as um

38:08

you know soft right and what women see that as is actually unsafe right because they’re like oh if my man is crumbling

38:16

or can’t keep his commitments or you know gets triggered all the time like I don’t know if he’s a safe partner which

38:21

is a very um very Primal I think part of the female psyche right where they want

38:26

it’s safe protector someone that they can really depend on um you know in case of like a famine or a war or something

38:33

right like it’s just hard baked in yeah yeah and it’s it’s interesting

38:42

to do that work especially with couples right and to

38:48

to I so I I work under a master sex therapist Dr Neil Canon and he has this

38:56

this mod model right it’s UCC where it’s understanding compassion and and

39:02

collaboration right so to work on any problem in a relationship and especially

39:09

sexual problems right before you can make the changes that you need right you

39:15

have to have understanding of everyone’s perspective right and so it could be

39:23

that you know the wife is just not turned on by like the Mal’s you know uh

39:31

you know sensitivity right and so and what does that mean for her like you just said right it could be a lack of

39:38

security it could be um you know

39:44

a just you know a turn up right it’s

39:50

things like that and so so first comes understanding you have to understand

39:55

everyone’s perspective and then because until you understand you can’t really have that Compassion or

40:00

that empathy for your partner so it’s kind of like a neat little even kind of

40:06

just like a you know you could think about the process of therapy as in couples work it can just be like we got

40:11

to get understanding then we got to build compassion and empathy for each other’s perspectives and then once we

40:18

have that we can say okay now we have all this information we know each other so much better we have greater awareness

40:24

of what makes us tick where can we make the changes and where can we compromise where can we work to get everyone’s

40:31

needs met so right yeah I think I think and that requires that individual work

40:36

on the other people being like okay what do I actually want and who am I I think especially on sexual Dynamic you know um

40:44

I’m curious have you seen this have you seen like people’s sexual Dynamic mirroring a greater relationship Dynamic

40:51

so is there a way to almost use what’s happening in the bedroom as a diagnostic tool to might be happening in the

40:57

greater relationship well yeah I I think most folks will kind of especially if there’s

41:05

been a change right but also just kind of use sex as a barometer for

41:11

relationship satisfaction and connection right where especially you have a couple

41:16

that you know the classic progression of you know get together you’re hot and heavy having sex all the time then

41:21

you’re together years and you you know things get stale and and of course right

41:29

does it just get stale in sex probably not it’s probably getting stale in other

41:34

places it’s probably getting stale in fun it’s probably getting stale in adventure and connection right you’re

41:41

you know things got easy um so I I think sex is definitely a

41:47

barometer for where things are in a relationship yeah what would you recommend to the to the male or to the

41:54

couple even that sex is getting stale I think that’s unbelievably common right like it just tends to Peter out without

42:00

work and without more fuel for the fire yeah I

42:07

think may I think what happens is like when you get together in a relationship

42:13

and there’s that novelty component right everything’s new and you know human

42:19

brains we like new things right it’s

42:24

it’s you watch a movie 10 times it’s not going to be as cool as the first time

42:29

right um and so I love this work because it

42:38

it sex is like the window into making a more enriched relationship in general

42:45

right where how can we if we want to bring make sex more

42:51

fun let’s talk about what fun is right what is fun for you right and what

42:58

brings you Joy right and I think it’s often in relationships those just aren’t like

43:04

natural conversations that people have and so there’s almost just not an awareness of what really makes the other

43:12

person or yourself tick right we just kind of go through things and like feel things and don’t necessarily reflect on

43:19

things and and yeah it just takes kind of that

43:24

commitment to learning and understanding and

43:31

curiosity yeah so let’s dive into an exercise you can give to listeners we talked during the commercial break about

43:36

kind of a values B exercise that you can run people through to answer some of those questions right because I think

43:42

like as therapists we’ve done a lot of thinking about that we tend to be very introspective people philosophical

43:47

people um but I think most clients and listeners like they don’t think about that stuff right like they’re not the

43:53

same weirdo that we are so I’m curious how you would help somebody start to ask some of those questions yeah and it’s

44:00

interesting you say that because I don’t necessarily view myself as that

44:07

introspective self-reflecting person I actually had to go to grad school and go to my own therapy to really become that

44:16

person and and and gain that uh you know

44:22

discipline as part of my life right and because

44:27

it’s so much easier to not right well it’s not easier right but it is some

44:34

it’s hard to reflect right it’s it it could be really painful and so we often

44:40

just avoid that because you know the biggest risk of that is getting at

44:45

ourselves and so being kind of an existential

44:51

experiential therapist I don’t you know and and and growing in this field I’m

44:56

kind of gaining tools and interventions but like the most simple thing that I like to do and I do it early on whether

45:02

it’s like with my couples or individuals is a simple values sort right and so to

45:11

understand because ultimately we want to know what we want what our needs are um

45:17

and in order to you know make choices that make us feel empowered that we have agency right to enrich our lives and so

45:26

but you see so many clients that just don’t like I said you know what’s the meaning of sex for you no idea right

45:33

that to feel good to have an orgasm right like that’s probably about as basic as a lot of my clients can get

45:39

initially and so I’ll present a value sore I give them a sheet of paper that has 130 values on it and then I like to

45:46

be you know experiential so I’ll get a piece of paper and so anyone at home can do this get a piece of paper could be

45:53

with a pencil you can get crayons colored pencils or whatever and I I give them a a values paper with

46:01

just literally just a list of values and I just say Circle everything that resonates for you to probably get like

46:08

20 and then I have them break them down I’m like okay I really want you to concentrate I want you to pick five so

46:15

any listener out there can go out there and just pick five values like from a value sword you can just Google Valu you

46:22

know list of values and um then you get this this these five

46:29

values and I say order them put them in order if you can it doesn’t matter because you got five so they’re going to be really important to you right so like

46:37

my values when I’ve done this number one is connection to fun growth nature and

46:45

authenticity and so I I put it on a paper I Circle them I kind of space them apart and then I just kind of ask my

46:52

clients like what does if connection right what does connection mean to you

46:58

and just have them write like kind of freewrite what it means to them right so

47:03

sex is part of connection love right for me not it could be different for everyone acceptance understanding right

47:12

what is fun right fun for me is sensuality slay silliness Adventure right pleasure and

47:20

so I go down that list and so what clients are like what you’ll get as you

47:25

go there like damn these are all the things that like I like this is all the

47:30

things that bring meaning to my life these are all the things that I want to

47:36

bring in okay and so then we have the conversation right how how is this

47:43

aligned with how you are what behaviors are not aligned with your

47:49

values what are what are you look at your values what is it telling you about your

47:54

needs right I need to have fun I need to feel connected I need to be in nature

48:00

right I need to feel like I’m being myself and not working not acting out of

48:08

someone else’s Vision someone else’s

48:14

voice right where’s the dissonance right where’s the conflict between your beliefs and your values and your and

48:21

your wants right and so sexually that [Music]

48:27

that you know you’re like hm I want fun I want to grow I want

48:33

to uh be sensual right and you’re like how are these elements missing in your

48:39

sex life and then you can come at it with like this greater awareness of what’s

48:46

going to make sex a more meaningful experience for you or anything right doesn’t have to be

48:51

sex that could be literally for any aspect of your life any

48:56

yeah yeah it’s awesome right I think it’s good to help externalize that type of thing and to take that honest audit

49:03

and inventory of like okay where am I with these things um and where are we as a couple right like you have two people

49:09

do it some of them might not value the same things right there might be conflict work with that yeah that’s

49:15

that’s the the best thing about it too and that’s why I love couples work is because it’s fast right it moves you you

49:23

you have multiple brains in the room and you can’t escape your

49:29

[ __ ] and in couple’s therapy and so um yeah so now it’s on a piece of paper

49:37

and you can see right where the conflict is right and it makes so much more

49:43

sense right and so then you can understand of like all right I have this need and you have that need and that’s

49:50

okay and now I understand why uh you got mad at me because wasn’t meeting your

49:56

need for you know uh playfulness right but I you didn’t have

50:02

the language before to know that like that’s what you really needed right so now there’s just there

50:09

now systemic understanding um and sometimes it can be

50:14

really painful like I don’t know if I can provide that need for you right like that’s not a turn on for me and then

50:20

then you kind of work on compromise and you figure out how you can make it work

50:26

you know can pleasure be separated right does it always have to be mutual

50:32

pleasure like can you get joy of doing something for your partner and then have them do that to you something different

50:38

later and you know that’s a lot of work yeah but it’s it’s

50:44

work we’re doing right here that are having like a kind of stale cold marriage um and I think it’s great right

50:50

because like you said it puts into context all those same fights that you may have been having with your partner over and over again it’s like oh it’s

50:56

not about the dishes or about you know leaving on time or whatever right it’s about these deeper values that are more

51:02

core uh to kind of who who we are in relationship it’s never about the dishes

51:08

right exactly um so Erin we are approaching the end of our episode I’m curious um if you want to find you

51:14

online or learn more about you where can they find you yeah so my psychology

51:20

today page you can just search Aaron igler is probably the easiest way I I

51:25

work at two private practices um the main one I work at is the Canon Institute in Denver and that’s

51:32

specifically for sex therapy and so but so you can email me at you can go

51:38

to the website the Canon institute.com or you can email me at Aaron atthe

51:44

institute.com and I also work with Melissa rats at kinosis counseling so

51:50

you can look at kosis counseling.com or email me at Aaron kosis counseling.com

51:56

great yeah reach out to him he knows his stuff uh looking for new clients it’ll be great to you to work on your

52:02

sexuality or your couples or your family Dynamics and your guy so I guess as

52:07

we’re wrapping up here if you like this episode please share it uh give us a five star review on Apple podcast listen

52:13

to us on Spotify we’re trying to build those things and share it with someone who you feel like needs to expand their definition of sex right who needs to

52:19

connect on a deeper level and maybe feels a little bit boxed in or trapped um I think there’s a message here around

52:26

the idea that sex can be more and relationships can be more than what we were told and what we were kind of trained to do um so Aaron thank you so

52:33

much for being on the show bark thank you so much this was this was really fun yeah great episode and thank you

52:39

listeners for tuning in and we’ll see you next week another episode of the men’s therapy [Music]

52:47

podcast thank you for joining your host mark aile on the men’s therapy podcast

52:52

be sure to tune in again live next Friday at 2: p.m. eastern time and 11:00 a.m. Pacific Time on The Voice America

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