Male Privilege is an Opportunity w/ Silvia Dutchevici

Male Privilege is an Opportunity w/ Silvia Dutchevici

October 13, 2023

Returning guest Silvia Dutchevici, the founder of Critical Therapy, joins the show to talk about Male Privilege, Money, and Power Dynamics. In this episode we talk about redefining and expanding the definition of masculinity to be more inclusive.

Episode Transcript:

Intro: [00:00:00] Mark Azulay is an industry leader in psychotherapy and men’s mental health. He’s helped countless guys get back on their feet, deepen their relationships, and excel in their lives. Now he’s taken all that he has learned and is sharing it with you. In each episode, Mark will interview an expert in the field of masculinity and men’s work.

We’ll cover topics such as emotional intelligence, masculine identity, anger management, financial health, trauma recovery, marriage and divorce, ethics, and spirituality. Tune in and become a better man. 

Mark: Welcome back to the men’s therapy podcast. I’m here with returning guest Sylvia Dukovic. And she’s the founder of critical therapy, you know, really the blending social justice, um, critical race theory with psychotherapy.

And I think it’s a direction that the field is really moving in. And I’m really happy to have an expert back on the podcast. So Sylvia, welcome back. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Oh, thank [00:01:00] you for having me. It’s great to be here. 

Mark: Yeah. So I want to just dive right into the topic. You know, when I think about working with men, I feel like privilege is just such a big part of it, right?

I think we’re at a point now, I hope we’re at a point now in our culture where it’s undeniable, right? We know privilege is real. We know racism is real. We know things are happening. But now the question is, okay, what do we do about it? Right? And how do we get men? I think specifically to talk about it without shame.

Right? Because I see a lot of you guys get shut down when the topic of privilege comes up and it ends up being a blind spot for a lot of people. Would you agree with that assumption? 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Yes, I also think, um, that most men shut down when we talk about privilege, and I think most people, I mean, think about white people in general, shut down when we talk about privilege, because we haven’t had a great conversation around it.

Privilege now has become a bad word. Rather than privilege being a responsibility or a an opportunity to do something different. So all of a [00:02:00] sudden, we have learned to talk about privilege in saying the word, but the word has become a bad word, quote unquote. And as a result, everyone who hears it defends against it and is trying to look for ways that.

We’re not privileged. It’s like I’m privileged. However, I’m a little different because of this and that. I also want to say that it’s important that when we talk about men or masculinity, these categories are not, they’re not always just one thing. We tend to forget. We talk about intersectionality a lot, right?

And especially if you are in college and you write a lot of papers, it’s great. Therapists talk about it, you know, sometimes in our papers or in supervision. However, in our daily lives, We don’t incorporate it. We tend to think, so you’re a man and you have privilege. And we just stop there as opposed to, are you a white man?

And you have privilege. Are you a gay man? And you have, it looks different based on the intersectionality of our identity. 

Mark: Yeah. [00:03:00] Yeah. I think you’re talking about a lot of good stuff there. I want to go back. We were saying the beginning of redefining privilege, right? And seeing it, like you said, like as a responsibility or as an opportunity, because yeah, with especially a lot of the discourse online, it is weaponized, right?

Like you’re privileged. You need to give me something right. Or you’re privileged. Like you need to repent or, or something there. Like it’s always bad 

Sylvia Dutchevici: about it rather than. You know, you should there should be some reckoning with what that has meant, you know, and male privilege has sort of destroyed many lives.

And, you know, historically, we look at patriarchy. I’m not negating that. However, that’s not all there is. And if we don’t do a good job in shifting that, we’re just going to end up with people who are going to to disavow their privilege and look for places where they’re also oppressed. 

Mark: Absolutely. Yeah.

And it creates this thing that I know I saw in grad school, I imagine it’s happening even more now, which is like, you’re talking about this race to the bottom, right? People, you know, being competitive over how oppressed [00:04:00] they are, right? Or over what, how they might have a disability or neurodiversity or whatever.

And of course, all these things are real, but I see it like you said, as a defensive mechanism of like, Oh, don’t put me in the category of like the privileged white male. Right. I’m, I’m different. I’m one of the good men. Right. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Right. Right. And also, to speak to that, you could be privileged and be good, quote unquote, you know, um, it’s how you use that privilege or what you do with it that counts.

You can’t, especially if you think about, you know, certain categories are, you know, Whether we believe that they’re ingra, you know, ingrained or that they’re biological or so forth, it’s irrelevant. The fact is, as a white person, people will see me as white. It doesn’t matter what it is. It doesn’t matter what I think it is, it is the world we live in.

So with that comes some privilege, but with that comes my responsibility of how do I show up in the world? How do I enter a room? Who do I give, um, space to be in that room with me? And who do I bring to the table? [00:05:00] 

Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, another way to frame it for, you know, the guys listening, I look at traditional male values.

Um, some of the ones that I bring up is strength, courage, mastery and honor. And I put privilege under the honor category, right? Like, we can use our privilege honorably, and we can be leaders in our community. We can be fathers in our family, right? We can be leaders at work, but we have to with honor. Right?

And I think. Acknowledging privilege and sharing the privilege that we have is a huge part of living an honorable life. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Yes, I totally agree with that. 

Mark: Yeah. So I want to, you know, as we’re kind of getting to the discussion here and defining terms, I’m curious about how you would define masculinity again.

That’s something that is a very fluid term right now. And, you know, I’ll speak for me. I’m sure maybe share some of these that it’s not connected to sex, right? I think that’s been decoupled. You can have a masculine female born individual and a masculine male born individual or intersection individual.

Okay. Cool. Um, but how would you describe masculinity in this modern age? Cause it is, I feel like it used to be so clear and now it’s, it’s like smoke, right? I think it’s like hard to grab onto. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Yeah. It’s, it’s [00:06:00] interesting. I was thinking about it. I was thinking about, you know, coming to your show and talking about masculinity and is what is masculinity?

Um, and also. When we think now and correct me if I’m wrong, at least for me, it has become that masculinity is something negative. I think about masculinity and immediately I think about toxic masculinity. And again, I think we’ve lost an opportunity. Masculinity doesn’t, we need to actually, we, and it’s a great question because we need to redefine what masculinity is in a way that doesn’t feel toxic or problematic or bad.

Um, so you could, you know, traditionally, masculinity has been associated with strength. Traditionally, also masculinity has been associated with not expressing your feelings. So we’ve had both bad and good qualities that come under the category of masculinity. I I don’t know if I have a definition. I am open to rewriting that and I’m open to sort of questioning what, why is strength [00:07:00] masculine, right?

Why do we see it as that? Why do we see vulnerability as feminine? And it’s so ingrained in patriarchy. It is so ingrained in a binary as well. One of the things I think we need to do is we cannot have masculine versus feminine binary, because whenever we have binaries, we have good and bad. Whether we know it or not, subconsciously, that’s what we think.

So maybe we need to redefine masculinity. We need to redefine femininity from a perspective of a continuum. So mass, you know, there are people who are more masculine, maybe more, let’s say, strength based or tough or whatever. And then there are people who are less masculine. However, it’s so problematic because when I’m saying tough, I’m like, why, why is that, why is masculinity tough?

Who, who decided that? Um, so I’m going to leave. I know it’s not a very satisfying answer, uh, but I am going to keep asking myself and I would like for [00:08:00] everyone to know. All of us to keep asking ourselves the question, what would masculinity look like if we have to and we have to reinvent it? 

Mark: Absolutely.

Yeah, I got a lot of thoughts on this. Obviously, being that’s my area of work. Um, so I just did a presentation a couple of weeks ago on masculinity right now. I was looking up some research. And, uh, the APA published a paper, uh, kind of a report on masculinity a few years back and talk to masculinity specifically where they named all these things, right?

Tough, stoic, right? Like judgmental power dominance, like things that are like, you know, I think in the therapy world viewed as negative. Right. But then I, I contrasted that they did a survey, right? I’m just dudes. I said, Hey, what are some of the values that you want? Like, not that you have, but that you want aspirational values and they line up almost one to one.

So there was this real disconnect where the, our field is labeling some of these things as negative. And yet men want to feel in control for instance, right? They want to feel powerful. They want to feel, um, That they’re a leader, right? They want to feel that they [00:09:00] are courageous, right? All these things that I think our field can sometimes demonize.

And I think it, I think I know what alienates a lot of men from going into therapy because I think that they’re hitting an uphill battle with that. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Yeah, I think it, it, it alienates a lot of men from going into therapy. It alienates a lot of men to even talk about it or engage in it or, and it’s, it’s, again, it’s very defensive where they feel, why even bother with this conversation?

You already come to the table with a preconceived notion of what I am, which is true in some sense. Right. Um, and, and then it cut and shuts down the conversation. And I agree. I think. I don’t think it’s just men. I think all of us want to be in control. All of us want to be leaders all and and it’s the way we get there that matters.

And we forget that you could be a great leader. You could be very collaborative or you could be a bad leader and be very authoritarian. But that’s up to us. And yet we forget that because we are so stuck in language that associates [00:10:00] masculinity now with something negative. Transcribed 

Mark: Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think, like, like you said, the masculine movement needs a lot of work. The feminist movement was incredible for women, and it’s really expand the possibilities of what it means to be feminine. Right? Girl boss is the kind of example that comes to mind. Right? Like, that used to be bossy or bitch or suddenly pejorative, but it’s like, no, it’s great.

You can have traditional masculine qualities, and that’s celebrated by, right. You know, women out there, but men, we haven’t done that. Right. I mean, we’re, we’re like either comparing ourselves to the fifties kind of stereotype. Right. Or I think there’s a, there’s a group of men that are feminizing for, for instance, that are doing like the hippie thing of the seventies.

Right. Kind of got stuck there, but we don’t have that expansive. Um, spectrum that I think women have really done a phenomenal job of, of creating space for each other. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: And again, it’s because having this binary of feminine versus masculine, most men don’t want to be seen as [00:11:00] feminine, quote unquote, and that’s because we see it as something bad.

I think women Are allowed to be more masculine. We we don’t judge them as much. I mean, again, it’s a continuum. I recognize that. But for men, we judge them very harshly. Um, and I think that also needs needs to change to go back to, you know, redefining masculinity. What would that definition be? I would like for us to think about.

Qualities that are more about being kind, uh, being helpful to others, uh, qualities that have not been traditionally associated with masculinity necessarily. 

Mark: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a framework that I use with my guys are kind of the union archetypes, right? So King, warrior, magician, lover. Right. And some of those that are not as put forth, it’s like the lover piece and the magician piece.

Right. I think when you think of personal masculinity, it’s, it’s either a warrior or you’re a king, right? Either you’re a leader or you’re killing people. But a lover is a huge part of that, which can be being a father or [00:12:00] being a partner or being a musician or an artist, right. And then magician is kind of that ephemeral quality of being a craftsman, right.

Or being able to bring something into the world that is, that is incredible or saying the right thing at the right moment, being attuned. You know, that kind of like. That kind of quick magical moment that, um, you know, I think people can also have, but, you know, what do you think about those archetypes? 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Oh, I love it.

That’s it. 

Mark: I think locally trained too. So, 

Sylvia Dutchevici: yeah, that’s great. Yeah. I love it. It’s a good, um, example in something that people can understand and sort of like, hold on to. 

Mark: Yeah, yeah. So what do you see in your practice of barriers that guys have to talking about privilege and talking about masculinity? 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Uh, well, I think, first of all, I think there are barriers to men in therapy is the fact that most men haven’t been, um, allowed to ask for help or to go to therapy.

Um, and even when they come to therapy, it’s usually like, this is a short term thing. It’s just this one [00:13:00] issue. Um, or I’m having trouble at work, um, or I’m anxious at work, which is true, but that’s based on what’s going on in your life and how much, you know, you have to sort of, stifle your feelings. Um, and it takes a while, you know, for most men to really be open and trust another person.

Um, and therapy is that place where I think they could learn how to do that. Um, but it’s difficult. And, and I think it’s very brave, um, for those who try it. And I think especially after COVID and everything we’ve been through, everyone needs therapy. 

Mark: A hundred percent. Everyone needs it. Um, yeah, it’s probably a bigger topic.

What just comes to mind is I think in the therapy room when therapy field, there is a power switch, right? Because you have a man, most therapy, right? Most therapists are women, predominantly white women, right? Unfortunately, yes. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: We 

Mark: need to 

Sylvia Dutchevici: change 

Mark: that, but that’s what the stats are right now. Um, and they’re in a [00:14:00] place where they’re asked to talk about their feelings and more specifically, they’re asked to like, just sit and talk.

Which a lot of men, we don’t just sit and talk, right? Oftentimes we’re doing something and maybe having a conversation while that sitting and talking, even though it feels simple, can be really threatening to a lot of guys. So the power dynamic kind of switches, you know? 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Yeah. I mean, I think sometimes men are good at talking.

I don’t know how much they’re good at sharing. You could talk to someone for a very long time and say very little. It’s, it’s the challenge of actually being in tune with your feelings. Um, and I’m glad you brought up power, and I think one of the things that you know about critical therapy is that we do a deep analysis of power, which puts us at the center of this issue of men coming in and talking about how does it feel in this vulnerable position, but how do we learn to negotiate power?

I don’t think men and women have learned how to negotiate power together. Uh, we see this when we’re dating. Right? We all follow this script. Um, it’s like you have to do this, I have [00:15:00] to do that. It’s not authentic, it’s not about being present, and it’s not about learning how to negotiate our different identities and our power relations.

Mark: Yeah, there’s a lot to talk about there. Um, we actually moved to our commercial break first. So when I come back, I want to talk to you a lot more about men and women negotiating power. And I think specifically some gender reconciliation. You know, I think there is so much pain on either side. I know it’s it’s not a binary, but on either side of the spectrum, there’s so much pain either way.

Um, and I think that’s work that needs to be done. And I think at least one theory I have about this is that that will be the gateway for men actually is working with women on reconciliation where they can extend that. Yeah, yeah. So we’re going to head to our 1st commercial break when we come back.

We’re going to talk more about power dynamics. Uh, so thanks for tuning in and we’ll see you on the other side.[00:16:00] 

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Intro: You were listening to the men’s therapy podcast with Mark Azulay to reach the show today, please call 1 888 346 9141 that’s 1 3 4 6 9 1 41 or send an email to podcast at men’s therapy dot online or visit www. menstherapypodcast. com. Now back to the men’s therapy podcast. 

Mark: Welcome back to the men’s therapy podcast.

I’m here with Sylvia Dukovic and we’re talking about critical therapy, uh, masculinity and power dynamics. Sylvia, we left our last break. You had a wonderful, just bomb dropping statement saying that you believe, and I agree with you, that men and women do not know how to negotiate power and how to deal with the power differences.

Can you expand upon that during this next segment? 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Sure. I think most of us don’t know how to negotiate power in all our relationships. We and that’s because we have been taught a [00:19:00] model that’s power over someone. So we’re constantly trying to assess who has more power over home and what happens. Um, we haven’t thought about power as something that exists in every relationship and how we negotiate that.

How do we see it as we go back a privilege, but also a responsibility to the other person. So, especially when you look at. heterosexual dating. Um, it gets complicated. Um, even the most, you know, I, I do this, um, I do a lot of workshops now at different conferences. And, um, it’s about money. And it’s, we talk about, it’s called a politics of equity and about how do you, you know, your relationship to money and so forth.

Um, it’s connected. To our sliding scale, but that’s a different story. What’s amazing to me is that when we talk about money, it’s never about money and people’s ingrained beliefs come out in very strange ways. So, and this is what I mean about that. Our values don’t live in our head. They actually live in our hearts.

So you [00:20:00] have a lot of progressive men who was like, yes, I’m progressive women. Yes. I believe in feminism and so forth. And we, we do some of these workshops and I’ve had men say, well, when I go on a the men has to pay. You, you’re not a man if you don’t pay. So it’s just so interesting and that’s a power move, right?

Even though if you don’t have money, you still should pay more. Although this woman might be making three times what you’re making. It doesn’t matter because it’s not about the money. It’s about dating means men should have some control over the situation. I feel that women get control back, quote unquote, in a very dysfunctional way, but saying, Oh, I like you.

I don’t like you. I’m going to pretend I don’t like you. Cause it’s, it’s really crazy out there. 

Mark: It is crazy out there, so this is this is a thought that I’m like, working workshopping. Right? And I wonder if you agree with this, because I know we share some similarities and some differences about, I think of, like, the biological sex differences.

Right? And if you boil down, say, differences to [00:21:00] 3 productive system, right? And if you look at how it works, right, you have men are releasing tons of sperm out there, right? And a lot of them, most of them don’t make it right. And some do make it. And the women’s system is more of a filter system, right? Where there’s all these tubes and nooks and crannies and defense mechanisms, right?

To finally get towards fertilization, because fertilization is a huge tax on the body. Right? Um, and I think about that, um, when I think about dating apps, right? And dating dynamics, right? Well, when you look at the data for that, you have men, the men experience is sending out tons of messages and getting rejected almost 85 percent of the time, like always getting rejected.

Whereas the women is the opposite, right? They have to filter through all those messages and try to find the diamond in the rough. Um, so I, I wonder, as we look at our definitions, do you think there’s anything like, I guess, quote, natural about that? Or is that just our society or is it like nature and nurture?

Like, where do you, where’s your line? Yeah, 

Sylvia Dutchevici: it’s, it’s interesting because this is one point that I’m not, I’m pretty sure I don’t agree in so much as there’s nothing [00:22:00] biological. We live in environments and those environments shape the way we see and experience the world, especially about gender. Gender is so.

So ingrained in us from an early age. Think about if you want to know what our society teaches us about gender, go to the playground. You will notice how parents, caretakers, everyone around these kids are so invested in communicating what a boy does and what a girl does, which is also communicating.

Later on, what it means to be feminine and masculine, um, policing that, Oh, be a man, stand up, don’t cry. You’re not a girl. Right. Um, and you think today in today’s world, it happens. Yes. And unfortunately it happens. On our playgrounds, uh, where is where people learn about these, these sort of binaries, and especially in those places, that’s when society comes in, that’s when we learn these things, and that’s when it also forecloses for most of us, the [00:23:00] opportunity to express our gender in different ways, um, and I think we, you know, we, we go back now, well, we’ve talked off You know, when we were in the break about the transgender movement that for me, I think it’s an opportunity every day to challenge myself and to think, what does it mean to be a woman?

What does it mean to be a man? And instead of being defensive, which a lot of people are defensive, and I think we’re defensive because honestly, we’re not comfortable with our own gender. We are not comfortable in our masculinity, our femininity. So when we see someone who is Presents differently, or is gender non binary instead of saying, huh, this is an opportunity for me to think about how I want to show up in the world.

We’re like, no, that’s not allowed. That’s not allowed. We got to do it this way. 

Mark: Yeah. I find that really interesting. And I plan to have some trends focus on the show as we build it out. Um, Because, yeah, like, a female born individual that is a trans man, I get interested in that, right? It’s like, what about the [00:24:00] femininity?

Are they moving away from what a masculine thing moving towards? What is behind that decision? Um, I think it’s, it is a, it’s a great case study to understand how these roles and how these conditioning plays out in us. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Yeah, and it’s interesting because I’m reminded of what is now a, you know, old text of Judith Butler, you know, where she talks about, you know, that gender is always a performance.

It is something that we always put on. It’s not, and it’s obvious we go back to this idea of like, it is not biological. It is taught. It is how we see other people, how other people tell us that we should be. And especially in the transgender movement, I’m also fascinated at how much You know, movements of resistance sometimes, I’m going to parenthesis, with movement of resistance sometimes become part of the status quo.

So my question to a lot of, you know, transgender folks is how much the way you are now showing up in the world is based on how you want to present? And how much is it also a performance so you could be accepted in the world? [00:25:00] 

Mark: Right. Exactly. Like that’s switching the label creates more freedom. Whereas at least what I’m hearing you say, please correct me.

Is that the label could be more inclusive, right? That you could be a woman with traditionally masculine qualities and still be a woman rather than having to label yourself as a man. Is that right? 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Exactly. And how much of that is because you really feel that you want to present a certain way and that’s great.

And how much is it that you think the world is not going to accept you? You know, for example, and I think it’s especially for, for men is really tough. For example, if you decide that you want to, you know, dress in a, you know, go to a ball and wear a dress. That’s not going to be that easy. You know, people are going to judge you as much as we say we’re progressive, you know, and then they’re going to try to label you.

Does this mean you’re transgender? I don’t know. Does this mean you’re non binary? Oh, I don’t know. Does this mean you’re just the guy who likes to wear dresses? It’s so complicated and we don’t allow ourselves to have different answers. And, and I think when we [00:26:00] are given the opportunity, it will be such an empowering and liberating place to be.

Mark: Yeah, yeah, I think it starts with curiosity, like you’re saying, or it’s asking people. Hey, what’s going on there? And hopefully it becomes more normal, right? Because, yeah, I mean, I was thinking with if I wore a dress to a ball, right? I’m definitely going to turn heads, right? Like, it is something that’s like, quote, out of the norm.

Unfortunately, we’re like, I mean, I think we will be judgmental, but even if they’re not, it is something that will stick out, right? It’s not something that I would be able to blend into the background. A thousand man wearing a dress, right? Yeah. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: And that explains why the transgender movement right now has such a, a difficult time and, and so many people are being oppressed because it’s about us.

It’s not about them, you know, and as a therapist, you know this, it’s whenever we’re angry about something that’s not It’s really always about how it impacts us. We just hide behind values and, and sort of like, no, people should be this way or that way. 

Mark: Right. Totally. I mean, it’s like the, the argument that I think is hopefully getting more settled around like [00:27:00] gay marriage, right?

Where people said it, Oh, it, it impacts the sanctity of my marriage. It’s like, no, it doesn’t like you can get married to whoever you want, but like, why do gay individuals getting married, make your marriage somehow less valuable, right? So I think it’s the same with transgender where, you know, if you have someone a trans man, it somehow threatens people’s masculinity.

Around that rather than expanding the definition, 

Sylvia Dutchevici: and I think to go back to masculinity, and I think especially I suspect that people struggling the most in today’s world are heterosexual men, um, and I think it’s 

Mark: really confusing just to be like a straight white man right now. Yeah. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Oh, yeah. That’s like, you know, what do I do with that?

And I it is imperative that we Come up with some solutions around that if we want the world to change, because if we don’t, these men will become very defensive. The conversation will shut down and then we’ve lost the opportunity for change. 

Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it made me think when you were talking about the workshop that you [00:28:00] run, um, and the, the tipping, right.

And the money who pays for the date. When I think about that, I think a lot of that is kind of it’s reinforced by other men. To write like, of course, we forced by their men and this idea of like, you know, forgive my language. I feel like being a pussy writer, being a coward writer, being gay, right? Like, he’s like, labels that men throw on each other around when they adopt more feminine stamps.

So it’s something that I think as men, we have to look at too, is how are we reinforcing these, the man box, right? How are we reinforcing the narrow definition of what it means to be a man? 

Sylvia Dutchevici: And the problem there is that sometimes, you know, there’s peer pressure, right? So sometimes as a man, you might not think there’s anything wrong with, you know, sort of not paying on a date and the other person who makes more money should pay and so forth, but when you’re with your friend, you There’s the policing of what does it mean to be masculine.

So you might want to say, I think it’s okay. But then you look around and then we go back to the playground where it all started. [00:29:00] Cause that’s where you’ve learned it. And then you say what you should say rather than what you feel. And if you think about that, especially for men and women. If all your life you need to police yourself in how you come across, then it becomes sort of your nature.

It, at some point, is automatic, but that is not necessarily your authentic self. 

Mark: Yeah, I’m curious, like, what, like, what do you do about that? Right? Because I, I think, um, so my relationship, it is fairly traditional. So I pay most of the time. Right. But sometimes I don’t. Right. And when I don’t, I mean, I, I’m okay with it, but I noticed, like, this twinge of shame or guilt, like, with the server, right?

Like, with the person who is, you know, Giving me the check, who I do not know, I will never see again. And they’re just doing their job. They’re just happy to get paid regardless. They don’t care who’s paying, right? But like, I think as a white straight white man growing up in America, like that is in me.

Right. There was this moment of like, Oh, that kind of like bashfulness. Um, when my, you know, [00:30:00] fiance is paying for breakfast or something. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Well, this is a great example. I’m going to put you on the hot seat. Can I ask why do you pay? 

Mark: So right now I pay because I do make more money. Um, and there is this thing.

I think I do buy into the traditional masculine role of being a provider. Right, being like a financial provider, being a logistical provider, right? Being like, kind of working on, I guess, the way that I’ve seen it is kind of men are like, the masculine is like the vessel, right? And the, and the women is like the water that fills the vessel.

Right? So, in my relationship, it can be fairly traditional. I provide a lot of structure, but she provides a lot of emotion and depth and contents, right? Like, having an empty cup is worthless. You know, I need a feminine energy to inhabit the structure that I can provide for my future. I’m sure. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: So what I hear is that for you, paying for some money becomes a, you know, a stand in for caring or providing.

Ad: Yes. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: And somehow if you didn’t pay, that means you don’t [00:31:00] care, you don’t provide. 

Mark: Correct. Yeah. Like, like either I can’t care or there’s the insecure piece that like I cannot provide, right? I’m somehow emasculated in that moment or I’m somehow like weakened in that moment. I think those are some of the feelings that come up for sure.

Sylvia Dutchevici: And some of the work, if you’re in therapy, would be to understand where this comes from. Where does money, where did you learn that money is another word for care? Where did you learn that if you’re not the one caring, that means you don’t, don’t even love this person or you don’t, you could, and is there a way to care in different ways?

Um, and that’s a lot of work because. It’s sewing. Great. 

Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. And that’s the work that I’m doing with Carolyn, my fiance. Um, yeah. And I, you know, I won’t go too much into me, but my dad, right. It’s like very generous, very present. Um, not always super emotionally deep, but being like an immigrant and coming from, um, low income for him being able to share money and pay for stuff and, and do that is a big point of pride for him.

And the main way I think he shows his generosity. Um, 

Sylvia Dutchevici: so that makes [00:32:00] sense. Then I get that conditioning. But yeah, right. And then part of that work is, it’s good that you’re talking to your fiance about like, what does this mean for you? And maybe for her, it might not mean anything. So you send there and your thoughts like, wow, this woman thinks I’m not really caring for her.

And then she’s like, oh, it’s nice that I get to pay. I really feel great. And again, do you see how when we’re in relationships, most of the time we follow certain scripts, we’re not present. You’re not actually stopping for two seconds and be like, so sweetie, how do you feel when you pay and actually finding out what happens there?

Mark: Yeah, exactly. Right. I mean, that’s part of the work that we’ve been doing is that I think she does appreciate me paying, but really she cares more about physical affection, right. Which is an area where I personally struggle. And because my dad and mom don’t have that physical relationship. So it’s a thing of like, I think I am.

Providing care or love. And I think it’s worth whatever 10 love points, right? Really? It’s worth to holding your hand is worth 10, but that’s more of a struggle. So it’s like just getting to know how you can fill up other people and what [00:33:00] they how they take in love. Right? 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Yeah. And I think 2 things before you go.

I think this is great that you know, you sort of. We’re able to identify that. And the second point is I would encourage you because there is some behavioral stuff. So I encourage you next time she pays, just grab her hand and say, thank you. 

Mark: Yes. Right. I’ve had to learn to like hold the hand, maintain eye contact, like soft voice, right?

Like those things are less natural for me. 

Ad: Um, 

Mark: but anyway, yeah, we’re going to move to our final commercial break when we come back. I want to talk more about how men can use the privilege as an opportunity, um, and maybe some actions that they might be able to take in order to, you know, help their community or their family or their friends or whatever, right.

Uh, people that are less privileged than themselves. So if you’re listening, hang on in there and we’ll see you on the other side.[00:34:00] 

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Intro: You’re listening to the Men’s Therapy [00:36:00] Podcast with Mark Azulay. To reach the show today, please call 1 888 346 9141. That’s 1 888 346 9141. Or send an email to podcast at menstherapy. online or visit www. menstherapypodcast. com. Now, back to the Men’s Therapy Podcast. 

Mark: Welcome back to the show. Men’s therapy podcast.

I’m sitting here with Sylvia Dukovic, and we’re talking about masculinity and specifically male privilege. So we talked to the beginning of the episode about how privilege we need to rebrand it, right? It’s been weaponized so much on social media, I think it’s pushed a lot of men away from doing what I think is very necessary work of understanding our privilege.

And you want to reframe it as being an opportunity. Right and I was talking from my framework as it being an honorable action is using privilege in an honorable fashion. But, you know, guys, we like to be very concrete. Right? We like to know, like, what to do. So I’m curious if you have any suggestions of how a man can start to do this reframe and maybe some [00:37:00] actions they can take to feel like their privilege is more about opportunity and responsibility and less about a.

You know, stain or a shaming thing. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Um, I love that question. Not only because I think we men and women sometimes are very concrete, but because if our values don’t live in our heads, but in our hearts and the way we embody them, it’s a great question of. I might think I’m a very sort of feminist man, or I might think that I’m trying to redefine masculinity, yet every day I show up the same way, which is that I try not to cry.

If someone says something that I might agree with, but seems too girly, I’m not going to back them up. Um, I am not going to be collaborative because that would look that I’m weak. So these are sort of examples. I also want to say that from people I’ve been listening to the show, you know, marketed a great job of learning how to share power and allowing me to ask you questions about your personal life.

This is something [00:38:00] that men often don’t do. And, you know, it’s often seen as weak to talk about, you know, your weaknesses or your issues or how you negotiate stuff with your future wife. But you are willing to go there. And that’s a very simple example. Um, and it was, it just happened. The more men could be open to the possibility of being questioned, of really questioning each other, of questioning themselves about how they show up in the world, the more they’ll be able to expand their definition of masculinity.

Um, and also it’s bringing people with you, meaning that You know, I’ve had this, so I’ve, I had a meeting recently with a bunch of people and there was this, you know, guy, I’m sure he’s a lovely man, and he talked, uh, 90 percent of the meeting, there was no other space, so that’s a good concrete example, like, check yourself, you know, like, maybe you might, Someone else to say something and then he had some great ideas.

However, he’s like, [00:39:00] well, I think we should start. No, he said, I think someone should start a WhatsApp group. And I’m like, Oh, so now you’re delegating. And interesting enough, most of the people in the room were women. So of course, you know, one lady’s like, I’ll do it. Um, it’s a clear and so simple example of how do I use language?

Do I include people? Do I tell people what to do? And unfortunately. For all of us, I think power and sort of making it in the business world means that you have power over people, you talk over them. Think about our political debates for presidency. Those people are not dialoguing, they’re just talking over each other and who’s ever the loudest and could say the most mean things to another person wins.

Um, so that’s a bad example of sort of being caring and, uh, sharing and learning how to use privilege. You have a platform, you’re up there. Use it in a way, and let’s face it, most of the candidates are men. Use it in a way [00:40:00] that you can show up differently and teach different way of being in the world.

Mark: Yeah, I, I like, I mean, a lot of stuff you said that you like, but I just want to go on what you said at the end of teaching. Right? Because I think it’s something that is when I talk about expand the definition of masculinity. I think it’s something that’s been lost. Of masculinity, which is about being a mentor and being a teacher and about, like, helping the younger generation learn.

And I know a lot of older men, if they can get off their fucking high horse, right, like, they actually really get fed by that, right? Like, really get fed. I think it goes down to get traditional masculine values of like legacy and, you know, permanence and like growth. Right? I think there is a more masculine way of nurturing that looks more like mentorship, right?

Or coaching or things like that, where I always encourage guys to get into, especially my guys and, you know, Gen X and boomers. Yeah. Because I think there is a lot of value to be had, um, teaching right and nurturing 

Sylvia Dutchevici: and talking about their experiences. [00:41:00] Also what worked and what didn’t work and you’ll hear, especially as we get older, I think both men and women are more open to saying, well, I used to do it this way and that wasn’t right.

I just felt like I had to put on a show or I had to work a lot, although I wanted to be home with my family and that was not allowed back in the fifties that and so forth. There is an opportunity to. Mentor and reflect on what has worked and what didn’t work. 

Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. And just sharing life experience, which is vulnerable, right?

I mean, as a dude saying, yeah, I tried something for 10 years and it was horrible. Right. It didn’t, it didn’t do anything. And it really hurt my, my wife or my kids or whatever. Right. Um, 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Yeah, and I think the last thing on this is for everyone out there. If you want something to change, you make the road by walking, meaning we can’t wait for other people to do it.

We can’t wait till we figure it all out. It’s it’s trial and error. It’s about Let me be vulnerable in this meeting. Let me check myself. How much am I talking? How much space am I occupying? I mean, one thing, [00:42:00] and this is personal. I have to say, guys, if people are listening out there, if you’re on the subway or a train or somewhere where there is a bench and you’re a man and you’re sitting, you do not need to occupy a lot of space to know that you’re there.

Have you ever seen the way men and women sit on the subway? 

Mark: Yeah, that’s a man to 

Sylvia Dutchevici: take up space. It’s like, it’s okay. Maybe let someone else next to you. You won’t, it’ll be good for everyone. 

Mark: Yeah. Um, so I want to ask you Sylvia, right? The question of, of why, of why do this? Right. Um, because I do think there is that kind of theoretical idea of it is a good thing to do.

Right. And it is like being pro feminist and it is helping other people. But I think for a lot of guys, they might need a more personal reason. Um, so I’m curious, like, what are some benefits of redefining masculinity from your perspective? 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Well, I think in redefining masculinity, we are also critiquing and hopefully.

trying to end patriarchy [00:43:00] as we know it. And the thing about patriarchy that people should keep in mind is that it impacts everyone. It doesn’t hurt everyone the same way, but it does hurt everyone in different ways. For men, for example, we go back to how do we express ourselves? Am I allowed to cry?

That’s a result of patriarchy. And as a result, your mental health and your well being. Your inability to connect with your family, your inability to connect with your wife, for example, is connected to patriarchy. It’s so the more, you know, liberation and human liberation is always a joint project. It is something that when.

One person gets liberated. We all get liberated in the sense of we allow for different conversations. We allow for an opportunity to expand ourselves and the world. Most men struggle, right? And we also know that men who are single in their late forties or fifties have a higher incidence [00:44:00] of like heart attacks and their physical health is affected It’s suffering because of the world that we live in.

So the more that we try to be different, the more that men try to redefine masculinity, I strongly believe the better off they will be for themselves. And also the world. 

Mark: I agree. I agree. Just to add a little bit more punch behind what you’re saying. Right. I think, you know, men are lonely, right? I mean, some of the stats I’ve read is that three out of five men self identify as lonely.

Which is crazy because that is a traditionally like weak thing to say. So it’s probably more right because people are probably being, you know, tough. And also the same thing. The reason that the way they judge that they found that stat was they asked guys, you know, in the event of an emergency, do you feel like anybody has your back?

Right? 3 men said 0 people. Nobody will come to help me if I need help and that is, that is crazy. I mean, that is like a really dark place to be. And I personally remember being there. Now I have community and I don’t feel that way. But for a lot of my young adulthood, I [00:45:00] did feel that way. And I think a lot of guys feel that way.

Really them on an island against the world. So kind of the pitch I would make is like, if you can be more vulnerable, more connective, you’re going to just feel like you have backup and it feels good to feel like you have backup, you know, it’s good to not feel so alone. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: And community is a very good way of also interrogating yourself or being held accountable because people will call you on your shit.

Um, and you will feel maybe upset at times, but you will feel less lonely. I think the loneliness is a problem for both men and women. I suspect for men, especially working from home, because we’ve switched now, a lot of people are working from home and not knowing how to socialize. Gives you very little opportunities to be out there in the world.

And if you’ve learned that to be strong means that no one disagrees with you, it doesn’t give you an opportunity to really sort of challenge yourself. I think work was one place where we had to sit with people. We may have not liked [00:46:00] or agreed with, but we had to learn how to listen to them. Whereas now we no longer have to do that.

We just go on our laptops. If I don’t like you, I just shut down and never talk to you again. And that’s the end of that. And that is going to increase our loneliness. And I think for men, especially that struggle with communication and vulnerability, where are they going to do it? There’s, you know, there’s, there’s not, unless you create an intentional community, there’s very little space for you to talk to people.

Mark: That’s a really good point. Yeah. There’s no like forced melting pot, right. Or forced diversity. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Yeah. And that, that I worry about our politics. I worry about our society. I worry about all of us. I don’t. I wonder where we’re going to be 5 to 10 years from now, 

Mark: the same thing. Yeah, I worry, I worry a lot about the echo chamber and I worry about, you know, people getting fed content that just boost their ego and agrees with them rather than, yeah, challenges them or has them be exposed to a diverse opinion.

Sylvia Dutchevici: And, you know, let’s, let’s sort of, as we approach the end a little [00:47:00] bit, I want to go back to the beginning where you said, you know, what are some of the. things or definition of masculinity. Maybe we could say one of the definitions or one of the words could be allowing oneself to be challenged. Wouldn’t that be cool?

Oh, masculinity means I am willing to be challenged and to be wrong. Okay, that, that’s a beginning. 

Mark: That’s the beginning. Right. And that’s like, you know, again, for some of the guys that need some more sales on it, right? Like that’s like the scientific method, which is like a traditional masculine thing, right?

Being able to take in data and change your hypothesis. That’s very masculine. And there’s also to go, you know, mythological with it, this idea of forging a blade, right? Like we’re still refining steel. A lot of the men’s writers talk about that. If you need other blades to knock against yours, so you can become sharper, right?

If you’re just sitting alone, you’re going to get real dull. Because you’re not getting challenged, right. And you’re not having to either change your views or reinforce your own views, right? There’s none of that shake that happens. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: And I would also say, cause I’ve known this from both men and women as leaders.

If you say I would like [00:48:00] to be challenged, especially at your place of work, then do not get upset. If someone who is below you or, you know, your supervisor, so forth challenges you and then, you know, sort of take it out on them. You have to do the internal work of. It’s gonna be uncomfortable, but that’s okay.

Mark: Right. And that’s part of it. Like, it makes you a better person overall. So yeah, as we’re wrapping up, I guess the final question I’d have for you is if you had the magic wand magic wand question, right? And you could change something about our society or politics or policy or something that you think would help this issue.

What would you do? 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Wow, that’s, oh, no easy question, right? It’s like, let me throw that one in there. See, that’s why I’m a therapist because deep down, I believe in changing individuals who change society. I would like for everyone to do the work, whether it’s through therapy or whatever works for you, the internal reckoning of what does it mean to be a human being, a decent [00:49:00] human being?

What does it mean to be kind? And what type of world do I want to live in? If all of us or some of us did that, I think it would create different spaces, different conversations, and ultimately, I believe it will change the world. It won’t happen overnight, but if we want steady change, we’ll be steady. If we want fast change, fast change does not last.

Mark: And it’s really well said. Yeah. Turn the eye inward and doing some of that inner work. So it was a pleasure to have you on the show. I love your expertise. I love the banter. I love the back and forth that we can have around this stuff. I can’t wait to have you on probably sometime next year. So if you want to learn more about you and your work, where can they find you online?

Sylvia Dutchevici: Uh, critical therapy. org. Um, you could find all about our Institute, all about therapy. You could also find my book, critical therapy, power and liberation. Um, thank you so much for being on, you know, for, for being willing to be challenged with me. Also, thank you [00:50:00] for having me on your show. I, I really love the fact that you’ve engaged in this topic and that you’re going to talk about it.

I love, you know, sort of the work that you do. That’s going to help men be able to at least talk about some of these things. Because if we don’t talk about it, we’re not going to change anything. Um, and this is why I’m a therapist and this is why I encourage people that through, through talking, we could exchange ideas, come to different understandings and hopefully expand our world.

Mark: Absolutely. Yeah, thank you for those compliments. And I’m also a big fan of talking, right? I think it’s like a big part of what makes us human, right? To be able to communicate and have language and be able to change our mind and adapt within the lifespan of 1 being, right? Rather than the evolutionary lifespan of many, many generations.

And I think that’s something that is. Again, very courageous, I think, for all humans to embark on, and this idea of self evolution and growth. So thanks again for bringing your ideas. Um, if you listen to the show and you, you’re a guy, or you’re a [00:51:00] guy in your life that needs to hear this, please share it with them.

Um, I think we, I believe we did a good job of not bringing any shame into it. I think it’s a great conversation about. Privilege and about what guys can do to kind of work through that and start to open up those doors. And again, check out Sylvia’s website and her book critical therapy. Either if you are a client, or you’re a practitioner, you can get trained in her work, which is great.

I think you’re offering a really great service out there in the community. 

Sylvia Dutchevici: Thank you. Thank you so much. 

Mark: Yeah, so thanks so much for tuning in and we will see you next week. Another episode of Men’s Therapy Podcast.

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