Into the Soul of the World w/ Brad Wetzler

Into the Soul of the World w/ Brad Wetzler

July 14, 2023

Listen on:

Join us for Men’s Therapy Podcast Episode 1!
I couldn’t think of a better guest to have on than my friend and colleague Brad Wetzler.

Episode Transcript:

Intro: [00:00:00] Mark Azulay is an industry leader in psychotherapy and men’s mental health. He’s helped countless guys get back on their feet, deepen their relationships, and excel in their lives. Now he’s taken all that he has learned and is sharing it with you. In each episode, Mark will interview an expert in the field of masculinity and men’s work.
We’ll cover topics such as emotional intelligence, masculine identity, and more. Anger management, financial health, trauma recovery, marriage and divorce, ethics, and spirituality. Tune in and become a better man.
Mark: Welcome to the new show, Men’s Therapy Podcast. I’m really excited to announce the rebrand of my show. Um, used to be From the Ashes, now our Men’s Therapy Podcast. And just like the wonderful intro said, We’re focusing on issues around masculinity, mental health, um, just anything that helps men, [00:01:00] you know, get back on their feet or become better versions of themselves.
Um, our 1st guest is Brad Wetzler. He’s a friend of mine. I’ve known him for a long time. He’s a journalist that’s written for tons of magazines. I’m actually going to list out some of these right now. New York Times, GQ, Wired, Newsweek, Men’s Journal, Outside, National Geographic, Yoga Journal, the list goes on.
He’s incredibly prolific and He’s here to talk about his book, um, into the soul of the world, which is a memoir that includes a lot of these themes that we want to cover in the show. So, Brad, welcome to the show. Thank you. Mark. It’s great to be here. Yeah, I’m so happy to have you here because I think when we first met in Boulder, I got like a snippet of your story.
You know, I knew about the Jerusalem piece. I knew about kind of trying to discover who you were. I knew about some of the mental health recovery that you went through, but I’m really excited to learn. I mean, not just for our listeners, but for me, like how the story continued. You know, kind of where we go from there.
Brad Wetzler: Yeah, you know, when we first met, I was kind of early on in what was kind of a 10 year [00:02:00] recovery effort after a really hard and fast and successful start in my life. And I think I remember meeting you, I was still soaked in shame and really struggling at that time. But it’s great to be here and I’m happy to tell that it’s a different story now.
That’s awesome. Yeah. It’s cool to see on the
Mark: other
Brad Wetzler: side.
Mark: Right. And I think like, yeah, what you went through is what so many men go through is right. Beating shame and trying to find place and trying to find like initiation, right? Like this idea of like, who am
Brad Wetzler: I, do I have a place in this world? Absolutely.
And I think, you know, those of us that missed getting that initiation, which is a lot of us. I mean, I think I once heard Robert Moore say, you know, a few people, few men get blessed and they make it an easier path in life. And the rest of us live in chaos through our 20s, 30s, 40s. And in my case, until I was early 50s.
So.
Mark: Yeah, it’s something that men really need. I think there’s, I forget who said this question, but I looked these up as I get the show going, but there’s one where it’s like, you know, um, motherhood, [00:03:00] right? And women, you kind of get that biologically, right? There’s something very innate where masculinity is earned.
Right. And it’s earning through the sense of proving yourself through being initiated through challenging yourself. Right. And growing through challenge and going through, um, it’s difficulty and obstacles. Uh, so, yeah, I think a lot of cultures have it. Our culture doesn’t quite and we have to kind of seek it out ourselves.
Yeah.
Brad Wetzler: Yeah, absolutely. Our politicians, our business leaders are evidence that there’s a lot of. uninitiated men out there. I think a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah.
Mark: Well, so let’s dive right into your story, man. Cause I know you’ve always been a seeker and you’ve been all over the world. You’ve had incredible experiences.
What would you like to share with our listeners?
Brad Wetzler: Yeah. So, you know, I started out, uh, I left graduate school as a journalist. Uh, I’d studied journalism in graduate school and I landed a job the next, very next day I started outside magazine and I was an editor there for six years, but all the whole time I knew I wanted to be, um, A travel writer, an adventure writer, just like the [00:04:00] writers that I was editing.
And, so, eventually, I, I, after I worked on the famous story, Into Thin Air, by John Krakauer, I left the magazine. I knew that was my time to go. And, I went out and began working for the New York Times, Newsweek, uh, YRGQ, all these places you mentioned, and, I was going on these adventures and finding myself in remote places and, and writing some incredible stories and having, having a great time on one level, but there was sort of a backstory that was happening at age 24 around the time I’d started, uh, At the magazine, I had gone to a psychiatrist for depression, and 50 minutes later, after telling him a few stories about some mystical experiences I had as a kid, I walked out with a prescription for lithium.
And, well, that, um, So while I was traveling, I was struggling with both depression, and over time, I was getting more and more medicated. I was, I did not have bipolar [00:05:00] disorder, um, I would later find out, and eventually I was on 23 pills a day, um, 14 or 15 different medications, and, I basically, you know, was doing an assignment every, every now and then, and stumbling around, well, eventually my kidneys failed in Indonesia, and I literally walked into the ocean off a boat, and, um, and had to be rescued, and that was sort of, uh, that was one of the downturns, and then the next downturn, a friend of mine, uh, died by suicide.
Well, long story short, I spent about five years practically in bed. The only thing that kept me up and around was, was high doses of dexedrine. So otherwise I would have been in bed for five years. So, um, and after that suicide, I just realized I had to, uh, you know, something woke up inside me and, and I, I knew that I had to heal myself.
I had to find other routes besides medications. And that’s when kind of the journey began and it led me around the world again to Israel, Palestine, a [00:06:00] spiritual quest, but also hard work and therapy offices and yoga studios and all that stuff. But, you know, 10 years later, um, I, I made it and healed the healed the, uh, for the most part, you know, I think, you know, we can talk more about that, but man, I’m here.
So.
Mark: Yeah. And that’s awesome. I mean, that’s, that’s incredible. And it’s, I mean, there’s so much I go into, I guess, first of all, I’d say it’s such a shame to get overmedicated. Right. And to have mystical or spiritual experience, I imagine in your generation, or you’re a little older than me, like, be pathologized, right?
And be like, oh, that’s mania. That’s insanity. That’s you’re crazy, whatever, right? Like, we got to shut that down. Whereas I have to imagine those experiences are probably pretty meaningful informative for you when you were younger.
Brad Wetzler: They were very powerful and meaningful to me. And, and, you know, I was a deep, um, I was, I was sort of a mystic as a kid.
I mean, I, I played ball and did all the things, but I had this really deep connection with Jesus. And, and you know, later on I left that path behind. Um, but those were incredibly meaningful times. It [00:07:00] was a life raft for me too. And so there was validation in those mystical experiences. You know, in my, as my book will, uh, you know, those of you who read the book, I end up at age 55, having a 12 hour mystical experience in India.
And I know that sounds, you know, people go to India and have these mystical experiences, but it blew my mind. But then, you know, the, the thing that actually hit at home, when I got home, I was seeing a psychiatrist who’d helped me get off. Most of these medications and when I told him about that, he was, he was as old school as you could get, but he was also, you know, he was bolder and he had an open mind and he was on his own journey and, you know, he looked at me, he dropped his pen and said, you know, I believe you.
I believe that experience was real. I believe you deserved it. It doesn’t happen to just anybody. And in some ways that was as powerful of an initiation as, as this amazing mystical experience, you know, this older man validating [00:08:00] that mystical experience. So things had kind of come around full circle since being diagnosed and with mania.
So,
Mark: yeah, really getting validated by someone who’s a professional in that field, right? And being like, Hey, you’re not crazy, right? Like, this is real. Your experience is real. It’s not something that has to get cut off or rejected. Right. Right.
Brad Wetzler: Yeah, it was incredible, uh, validating, and, you know, I think as we’ve talked and we started to hint at, I think a lot of this quest was, was an unconscious quest for validation, it was trying to please an impossible to please father, and, um, and, you know, I’ve had a difficult relationship with my father since I was 12, and, you know, one of the backstories to the backstory was that when I was 12, I, I was on a canoe trip with him, uh, on a Fellowship of Christian Athletes canoe trip, and, well, we tipped over, and, um, and I nearly drowned, my life jacket got snagged on a, on a submerged log, and I was there for [00:09:00] several minutes, maybe, maybe five or ten minutes, and he was on the, on the beach, I could see him, and he, he froze, he didn’t come and get me, and eventually a, a boat rammed into me, but, Well, that started kind of this distrust, I think, with him.
And then when we got home, uh, I went to tell my mother the story, and he stepped in front of me and said that it didn’t happen that way, that I was exaggerating, that my shirt got snagged on a twig. And, in fact, that, that refrain is You know, I’m not, I’m not in contact with him now, but over the next 30, 40 years, that refrain, your shirt got snagged on a twig, that invalidation of that just, uh, you know, is one of many invalidations that led to the seeking journey, I think, so.
Mark: Yeah, I want to dive into that. I mean, it sounds like, yeah, it’s protecting his own ego, right? But in that, sacrificing your fear, right, and your validation, and that must have been a terrifying experience.
Brad Wetzler: Yeah, and then having to sit and process that alone, you know, and later alcoholism in my family [00:10:00] and, and that whole thing and getting scapegoated.
So it’s, it’s, you know, it’s the whole journey of someone who calls out the truth or his per, his perception of the truth and gets, uh, gets punished for it. And that happens, you know, in every, every street in every country of the country, you know, so. Yeah, there’s always
Mark: like scapegoats, right? Or people that are whistleblowers end up getting blasted, right?
Or canceled or whatever it is. Yeah, I want to take you back to the validation piece, right? Because I think so many young men, especially in the Western world, probably, especially in America, do something similar, right? They go on these quests, they go to these like spiritual places, whether it be India or Jerusalem or Cambodia or whatever it is, right?
And they’re seeking something. Oftentimes they don’t know what they’re seeking. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I’m curious to give more detail. You said validation and love of your dad, but yeah, what else were you seeking? What were you trying to fill by doing all this stuff?
Brad Wetzler: Yeah, I think, you know, long before the spiritual seeking journey, the explicit one began about 10 years [00:11:00] ago, you know, I would travel to these far off places and I’d get my work done as quickly as I could, and I would spend time in temples and.
And, uh, you know, churches and also just sacred, natural places. I was just drawn to it and, you know, on some unconscious level. And I, I, you know, I, I felt more myself in these places. I felt more deeply connected to something cosmic and bigger than myself. And, um, and I associated those places, this, this feeling with those places.
And I wasn’t able to access that feeling, you know, back home. And so. You know, on some, you know, unconscious level, maybe I was trying to recreate the experiences of my youth. I don’t know, but there was something, you know, you hear that word, a God shaped hole. I definitely had that God shaped hole that, that I would try to fill with sex relationships.
Um, I, I now see the over medication period in my life as, as addiction. And, um, you know, I was seeking, [00:12:00] I was seeking to become myself, but I didn’t know how to do it. And it was just compulsive traveling and. And at the same time, I was getting further traumatized on these trips often. Um, I’d find myself in roadless places after long helicopter rides.
Unable to get out and this kind of deep abandonment wound would come alive and um, And so it just layer upon layer, but yeah seeking validation seeking seeking and understanding what a man was I think too Um, you know, I didn’t didn’t know what a good man was I didn’t have good models and and I didn’t see them in my community.
Really. I didn’t see them in the business world um And it was, you know, later when I began listening, a friend of mine gave me a set once when in the middle of a dark depression, a friend of mine, an older guy, uh, gave me a set of tapes of Jack Kornfield and, and, uh, with a joint tapes to the tapes and, [00:13:00] and, uh, I began listening to Jack Kornfield and that kind of began my journey.
And then later Ram Dass. And that became my, you know, I began to see obviously the spiritual element of that, but the masculine element, the softer, openhearted man became something I had never seen before, ever.
Mark: Yeah. I love that. I mean, I had a similar thing with Jack Hornfield too, Ram Dass. You know, I had it with Chokum Trumpa from Ropa.
Right? Just like getting these Robert Bly. Right? Like, Many of my initiators in the beginning, I mean, my dad did a great job in some respects, but also a lot of it was like virtual or through books or through wisdom, right? A chance with Marcus Aurelius and meditation and all that stuff, but it was all it all came from wisdom.
And I think in that I felt. Connected, but also alone, I’m hearing some of that and what you’re talking about, because I was like, where are the living people, right? Like, like, where’s the community that talks about this? Where are other guys that have read these books? Um, for, I’m going to say 3 to 5 years.
I felt like I was the only guy on the planet [00:14:00]
Brad Wetzler: interacting
Mark: with this stuff.
Brad Wetzler: You know, I hear you. And, and, and, you know, and, and then when, when podcasts came along and a lot of these guys ended up having, you were able to hear their voices, there was something healing and haunting about healing the gentleness in these masculine voices that, um, that just blew my mind.
Yeah. Yeah, the gentleness is
Mark: crazy. Like the gentleness and the courage, right? Courage. Like, like they would say like the most vulnerable and Mm-Hmm . True stuff. But say it with no judgment and say it, which is complete care, right? Like, like it was a dad talking to a child, right? Of like, Hey, this is what life is like and yeah, I’m here with you.
You
Brad Wetzler: know? And it was, it was outside the lines of society, I mean, in a major way, which, which I always felt I was probably because of some of the scapegoating I experienced, but then it became a blessing, you know? And began to see there are paths out there that are askance from the, the, the straight societal line, and, and that validated that part of me, so.
Mark: Yeah. What are some ways you feel like [00:15:00] you didn’t fit in with the like primary cultural narrative, where was the rub for you?
Brad Wetzler: Yeah. You know, I guess I felt, I felt, I felt like an out, you know, for, for a privileged white man, I felt like an outsider often in my own body due to some PTSD stuff and obviously, you know, being pushed out of a family, you feel outside of, of, you know, your family of origin, you carry that forward, but then You know, I think seeing, seeing that society was, um, You know, was built around, you know, a capitalist society built around increasing your needs and fulfilling these needs that were never going to be met.
And, and I felt like, uh, I also felt more gentle as a, as a man inside. And, and I think that’s something that I’ve been confused about my entire life. And I think I’ve confused a lot of women with it too. I, I, you know, look like, uh, I’m six foot tall and have a now [00:16:00] a white beard. And in some ways look like I could be a.
Your typical alpha male, but I’ve had a softness to me that that, uh, I didn’t know what to do with in some ways and maybe i’m still working on that part of it And and there is a bit of a split I think still in that that i’m trying to heal uh still trying to understand which which I am and I I have a deep instinct that i’m I am more of the softer man and I’ve had a lot of a lot of uh, Leather put over my heart in a way and and yet You You know, again, still, still trying to find that path and find where, where there is a place for that kind of man.
So,
Mark: yeah, we’re like, we’re talking about, we’re going to talk about that more. We come back from the break of what like male love looks like. I’m hearing what male compassion looks like, what mentorship and teaching look like. You know, because I think that there’s this 1 image of like the tough love drill sergeant type of dude.
Right. And that’s, I think that does work for some people. And I think it cuts off a lot of [00:17:00] opportunity and potential. Yeah. I look forward to that
Brad Wetzler: conversation. Yeah.
Mark: Yeah, so we’re going to move to our 1st commercial break when we get back, we’re going to hear more about Brad and what male compassion and gentleness look like.
So, hang on in there and we’ll see you on the other side.
Intro: Voice America is on LinkedIn connect with us today. Men’s therapy online is now accepting new members. Men’s therapy online offers a solution to the lack of outlets for emotional expression, positive role models, and access to meaningful milestone experiences in our post covert world. Loneliness is at an all time high.
Men need consistent community. Our society is rapidly changing. Old models of masculinity are falling at the task of promoting emotional intelligence and meaningful connection. Men’s Therapy Online offers tools and experiences designed to help the men who are [00:18:00] struggling to balance traditional male roles and emotional fluidity.
Whether you need to get back on your feet or take your life to the next level, Men’s Therapy Online has your back. We hope our members become a true 21st century man. A man who is not burdened by the rapid change of society, but who contributes to it honorably. If you’re interested in signing up and finding your band of brothers, go to menstherapy.
online to learn more. That’s menstherapy. online. Start your journey today.
Brad Wetzler: It’s your world, motivate, change, succeed, voiceamericanpowerment. com.
Intro: You’re listening to the men’s therapy podcast with Mark Azulay to reach the show today, please call 1 888 346 9141. That’s 1 [00:19:00] 888 346 9141. Or send an email to podcast at men’s therapy. online or visit www. menstherapypodcast. com. Now back to the men’s therapy podcast.
Mark: Welcome back to the show. I’m here with Brad Wexler and he’s the author of into the soul of the world, which is a memoir of his healing journey, traveling all around the world, experiencing spiritual sites, mystical experiences, and just.
We’re just soaking in culture. I mean, it’s an incredible thing to both do as a young man, as an adult, professionally, right. To just like be, but I see it’s like, we’re like a global citizen, you know, it’s a. It’s pretty cool. Um, so kind of building off our conversation from last time, I’m curious, what, what your evolving definition of masculine love is, or masculine compassion.
And I wonder if it’s been informed by some of your travels or if there’s any stories that, um, that highlight that for you.
Brad Wetzler: You know, I was in India just this past February and, um, I’d been [00:20:00] pondering a next book idea that might have something to do with masculinity. And, and I, I, I, my eye caught it. Two men, um, rickshaw drivers that were, that were, uh, one of them had, had hit the other rickshaw, you know, and, and they were out in front of their rickshaws discussing it.
And I just noticed, um, you know, uh, they were, they were carrying on a conversation, it was, uh, heated isn’t even the right word, it was a vigorous conversation, and yet, I could not detect any of that up and out anger, and there were no hand motions, there were no threats, there were no knives, no guns, and it was, it was amazing to watch this, and I don’t want to fetishize, you know, Indian culture or Indian men, but there’s something about that episode that told me that there was, there is another way.
To be, besides, you know, who, who we often are in this country, filled with a lot of anger, anger, really substituting for any other depth of [00:21:00] emotion, and, so anyway, that’s one little story that, that has recently happened that got me thinking about masculinity, and, and, and, and, you know, regarding love, you know, I think, We have so much, I live in Texas now, and you have a lot of that vibe of the, of the self made man, the, the, you know, the proud, the, uh, unyielding male, and, um, and, you know, all the work I’ve been doing, I’ve been in a relationship now for the past two and a half years, it’s been quite hard, and, The work I’ve been doing is learning to turn toward and, you know, it’s such an easy, simple concept, but, you know, this sense of, of righteousness and rightness that we, we learn as young men, I think, that is masculinity.
We don’t have to sacrifice our masculinity by softening and turning toward and having a more open heart and asking your partner what, what you need in this moment and those kinds of things. And so I think, you know, and obviously. [00:22:00] I’ve been, I’ve been reading Terry real and, and there’s some, a lot of like about his stuff and, and just, and, and bell hooks too, and just trying to understand a different way of relating that is less, you know, my way or the highway, which, which is even for a soft man like me, I got instilled upon me, you know, so.
Mark: There’s so much of that. Like when I work with my guys, there’s so much of like me against the world mentality. Right. And I think some of the guys are the most angry and the most lonely that need help. Right. And I, and I felt this way, so there’s no judgment, but it’s like me against the world, specifically other men.
Right. And then women are like the prize of that. Right. Like, if I win the game of men, then I get a hot wife, you know, and it’s, that’s such like. Almost like dark Jedi shit, right? Like it’s there’s so much hatred. There’s so much objectification that comes with that. There’s so much like, um, just rage,
Brad Wetzler: you know, loneliness, so much loneliness in that, as you mentioned, I mean, [00:23:00] yeah, you know, the processing, the going home and trying to process the, you know, we just don’t learn how to even have good friendships.
I found I know you do a lot of men’s work and, and, um, I, you know, it was, I was 50, um, Three years old when I started to see how my friendships were suffering. I was losing friends how You know, on the other side of my kind of trauma recovery journey was, was opening my eyes to, to my own shit about relationships and, and with women and men.
And so, um, and again, that turning toward, and I think, you know, we just don’t check in on each other either as men, which is an interesting, sad thing. Um, Even the friendships I have today that are healthy and good, there’s a certain way in which two weeks pass, you know, two and a half weeks, and then there’s a text, hey, you want to grab coffee again?
And, you know, I think, uh, we just don’t take care of each other like women do.
Mark: Yeah, so compartmentalized, it’s either tied to [00:24:00] activity or a schedule. There’s not as much flow as it seems like there isn’t relationships. Right? Yeah. A beer
Brad Wetzler: or pickle ball or whatever. It’s like,
Mark: you
Brad Wetzler: know, where’s but yeah, so, yeah.
Mark: And if it’s like, you know, the weather sucks, you’re not talking to your friend for 3 weeks. Get out again. Yeah. Yeah. I’m curious if you talk about relationships, right? And you said, you’ve been a relationship for a while now, and you’re working through how to turn towards. And I’m curious, right? We’re talking about the masculine a lot, but I’m curious to your impression of the feminine and how do you bring those balance into a relationship?
Say more about that, Mark. Yeah. So I guess 1 of the assumptions I posits that I put forth in this podcast, right? That I’ve come to realize is that men and women are different, right? Equal, but different. And that’s weirdly a taboo thing. I think with a lot of cultures moving towards, everyone’s the same.
We’re all one unit. Everything is like, um, just level, right. Or the fact that there are gender differences, there are cultural differences, whether it’s [00:25:00] nature or nurture, it’s kind of hard to tell, but I think men and women are different. And I think I try to take more of an equity model here, right. Of like, it’s about, okay, understanding your partner.
If you’re in a heterosexual couple partners, like unique needs, right. And then meeting them. Rather than just, like, doing what you think is right, right? Or just doing what you would want, you know, um, and I guess I have to say for our listeners, right? Like, masculine feminine doesn’t have to be sex assigned.
It can their genders. Right? So you can have masculine women and feminine men, et cetera, et cetera. But I do think that there’s something about that polarity between those 2 energies. Um, so, yeah, I guess I’m curious, like, have you thought about that? Do you see that play out in your relationship? How do you move between those?
How do you lean into that? Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Wetzler: You know, it is, it is a, it is a can be another confusing, confusing thing. I think that, um, you know, women have been conditioned by, you know, our patriarchy too to, you know, you talk about the winning the prize, well, there’s a certain conditioning with, with some [00:26:00] women anyway, that they, they move towards becoming that prize in that there’s a certain, um, overt feminism that, or not feminism, but feminine way that, that, um.
You know, has has come to to be normal in this country. But, um, you know, I think I have had to learn about about meeting needs. And I have and there’s a certain part of me that, you know, being a spiritual person, there’s a part of me that, um, doesn’t want to necessarily see needs as an as an important part of relationship.
And if that makes sense to you that a relationship is a container for self growth and are both a mutual growth. And I think there’s a lot of truth in that. But, uh, and I have resisted, you know, really trying to accept and meet my partners needs. But it’s, I’ve made a big move in that direction. It’s not something that a relationship can survive without.
Mark: Yeah, it’s been a struggle for me, too, if I’m being honest, right? Like, I think [00:27:00] some of my fiance’s needs are things that I don’t know if it’s good or bad, but like, I can’t even comprehend really like, again, whether that’s a genetic difference or that’s just like conditioning. I’ve ever pressed those.
Right. I mean, there’s a really great, um, antidote from John Gottman’s work. It’s a great book, a men’s guide to women, where he talks about this, where he does this thing and he has run these big workshops, he’s like a couple’s counselor. Right. And he says, Hey, men in the room, when’s the last time you’ve been afraid?
Right. And like men say, Oh, I was climbing this mountain or I was doing this like thing, or I was shooting guns or like whatever, typical man shit. Right. Um, and then women, you ask them and they’re like, Oh, walking to this. Um, workshop, right? Like getting out of my car, right? Like going home at night and just like the fear level between men and women.
It’s just like, uncomprehensible. Yeah. And that’s something that shows up in my relationship where it’s like, I’m often in that soothing role and I don’t, I don’t feel afraid. Right, because of privilege or conditioning or biology or whatever. Right. But, like, my fiance does and that’s 1 edge. I’ve had to [00:28:00] really try to work and get into that.
Brad Wetzler: Yeah. And I think I’ve done a lot of self soothing over the years, even though I’ve been in relationships. I, I, my go to way to soothe myself is, is to, uh, is to come back to my apartment and, and, uh, you know, open a book or, or sit on my deck and, and just, you know, Overthink things and, you know, when in fact, you know, being more relational, I’m learning is, is a, is a much better way to soothe.
And that’s an edge for me. I want to, I just want to separate and go home instead of connect. And it’s still quite an edge for me. I had the same thing. Yeah. I mean, I like that avoid
Mark: an attachment. Like, I don’t want to talk about it. I think I hold some misogyny views that like, if somebody helps me, it like, makes me less powerful in some way.
Like, I should be able to do it on my own. You know, um, I don’t see that on your partner.
Brad Wetzler: Then you want, you think her, she should have to do it on her
Mark: own. So yeah, 100%. Yeah. So when [00:29:00] the partner asks for help, I’m like, just figure it out. I don’t know. Like, I’ve had to figure it out. It’s rejecting. Right. I mean, it is, it’s hurtful.
It can be hurtful. Um, yeah. Yeah, I think it’s I think it’s tough. So I’m curious, right? This is a question. I’ll probably weave into the show a bit is what do you see as modern masculinity? Because I think we’re at a point where the old paradigm is failing, right? Like, that’s people know that, right? Like, men are struggling.
Toxic masculinity is destroying our boys. Like, it just doesn’t work. But I think the more interesting question is, okay, where are we going? So I’m curious for you. Where do you think we’re going?
Brad Wetzler: Yeah, well, that’s a big question. And I think, you know, as somebody who’s Identified, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard the term Sigma male.
Have you ever heard that term? Yeah. I don’t know if there’s much validity to that idea, but, um, you know, Here in Texas, I, I, I’ve been raising this question as I’ve been trying to process my next book, and do you think the typical man, [00:30:00] or in history, throughout history, do you think the, the essence of masculinity was more John Wayne or Keanu Reeves, you know, and throw those personalities out, but you know what the archetypes of those two are, and I have a hunch that it’s more Keanu Reeves.
I just do. I just think that, um, yeah. You know, especially as we’ve moved in the Western culture and again with capitalism and corporate culture, it’s become very bullying and very power, you know, it is. I mean, obviously, masculinity and power are very connected. It’s an important part of masculinity, but I think, um.
You know, there’s some way I think we’ve got to cut through just a power for power’s sake and find a way to, you know, to relate again in a turning toward way. I, you know, I’m just so appalled every day I wake up and just read about the politics and the Elon Musk’s of the world and it’s just [00:31:00] heartbreaking to see how normalized this is getting and how How it’s soaking into, you know, again, our boys and stuff here too.
So, yeah. Have
Mark: you seen this attention? Have you seen the, like the thing about Elon doing a cash match? Yeah, that’s like, to me, I think that’s like fall of Rome, like opulence of the empire shit. Right. Now, like literally like two of the richest men in the world are going to fight in a cage to like determine if Twitter or threads is better.
Like it’s
Brad Wetzler: just, I know. Well, it’s mind blowing to me too, Mark, and I’m older than you, but I grew up in the 70s, and, you know, it was still, the 60s was still close enough that there was a lot of, I had so much admiration at that time, there were softer men then, to be quite honest, there was, you know, I mean, Alan Alda was on MASH, and And singer songwriters, James Taylor, and all these heartfelt men, these romantic, poetic men.
And they were kind of for a while the alphas in [00:32:00] a way at that time. And it’s gotten bizarre for me to see, um, nothing against tech people, but to see a different personality that’s a much less emotional personality, um, perhaps. Um, you know, rising to these The top of the heap, so to speak, and um, and winning, winning the alpha females and, and it’s just, there’s just a mindfuck that’s, that’s happened for me to see that the lack of emotionality and relationality, that’s what I’m really getting at, and that these are the men who are in power and the men that are setting the rules for society, um, it, it is a bit, um, There’s a bit of psychopathy to some of this.
I’ll say. Yeah,
Mark: I agree. It’s very strange, right? It’s like, I see, like, it’s a perversion of, like, 1940s, right? Because at the time in the 40s were scientists were the coolest shit, right? Like Albert Einstein, Robert Feynman, right? Like, all these people was like, science was cool. And like, we’re helping to, like, improve the world and [00:33:00] like, learn cool stuff about physics and chemistry.
Now it’s like, it’s not science. It’s like the money that science gets you, right? It’s like one step beyond the innovation. Cause I think innovation research is something that really does that America really can stand, right? I think we have some of the brightest minds in the world, but when it gets perverted by this, like capitalist piece, right, it’s not.
Understanding for understanding’s sake, right? It’s understanding for profit, right? So touch a different
Brad Wetzler: feel. Well, and all you tech people out there, forgive me for this, but when, when I was a kid, you know, if you’re an engineer, you, you had literally had a pencil protector and, and you worked on for 3M on like their next brand of tape and Mm-hmm, , I mean this is my, my own image of it.
So I sometimes think of Elon Musk as like in some corner in some office trying to perfect, you know, double-sided tape or something. So.
Mark: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And it’s like, I mean, these people, they have such big platforms and I think they could really benefit from some of the gentleness or poet.
Yeah. Right. They are talking about [00:34:00] or anything about, yeah, like cat Stevens, right? Or like the Robert Bly are these kind of people that are like saying something deep. Um, yeah. So say more about that, right? Like, what kind of gentleness would you like to project into the world? I think we’re kind of dancing around that topic.
Brad Wetzler: Yeah. Wow, another big, big, big question. I appreciate it. Um, yeah, you know, I think, I think it’s, it’s really just right at this point focusing on the process. I mean, I think it’s, it’s probably too much to think about an end result of a more gentle masculinity, but what can we do on a day by day basis to, to, you know, soften our hearts?
I, I can’t remember if it was Meister Eckhart or something talks about, you know, just these layers of leather over our heart, as I mentioned, and this, this quote about that, and how, you know, over time, it just gets layer upon layer upon layer, and, and I think the, the thing we can do is, you know, I mean, this, this is what takes me back to spirituality and [00:35:00] to not necessarily a A woo woo spirituality, but just doing things like metta meditation or self forgiveness meditation and, and, and breathing exercises, anything to slow down and try to feel again.
You know, I think, um, I think, you know, a lot of my work after, after getting off the medications was learning to feel again. And, and there’s a way for me, anyway, that I think as I began to feel more, I felt more connected to my soul. And I’m not even sure what I mean by that word soul. It’s in the title of my book, and it’s, it’s, it’s something about our essence.
There’s something connection with, with the soul of the world. But I think for me, it’s through the feeling function in a way. The more I can feel, the more I can come back to my essence. And I think if. You know, obviously therapy things you’re doing, um, to help men get out of just the The anger mode and find some subtlety of feeling, you know, that’s such an important thing.
Mark: I agree [00:36:00] completely. Right? Like, I think men are superpower and our biological function for most of history is that is being able to go terminator mode. It’s all right to call it right. It’s like, cut it off and like, do the thing. Like kill the thing, build the thing, save the person. But like, especially, you know, again, this is a privileged conversation, but in privileged Western culture, like we don’t need that anymore.
Now we’re okay. Right. We’ve been okay actually for a while. And I think our hardware is still catching up with the fact that we’re pretty safe now. And I think as men, we don’t know how to, we don’t know how to live in peace. We don’t live in war. We’re actually kind of bred for war, but peace is very hard for men.
Um, and I think it’s exactly what we’re talking about. It’s like slowing down, breathing, feeling, being more, being more alive. Ultimately.
Brad Wetzler: Yeah. Getting away, stepping away from the computer. One thing where you just live in your head all day. So yeah, not having to just like cut, cut yourself off from the neck down.
Um,
Mark: right. Yeah, I think when we come back, I want to talk more about spirituality, some of the spiritual beliefs, um, how I think, I [00:37:00] think men need that. I think that we talked about before that God shaped hole. That’s really common, whether it be, you know, religion or spirituality or connection, whatever you want to call it.
I think a lot of guys are missing that. And I want to hear about how you’re working on that and what that journey has been so far. Um, For those listening, uh, thanks for supporting the podcast and we’ll see you on the other side of the commercial break.
Intro: Follow voice america at facebook. com forward slash voice america for juicy updates from your favorite radio shows and podcasts Men’s Therapy Online is now accepting new members. Men’s Therapy Online offers a solution to the lack of outlets for emotional expression, positive role models, and access to meaningful milestone experiences.
In our post COVID world, loneliness is at an all time high. Men need consistent [00:38:00] community. Our society is rapidly changing. Old models of masculinity are falling at the task of promoting emotional intelligence and meaningful connection. Men’s Therapy Online offers tools and experiences designed to help the men who are struggling to balance traditional male roles and emotional fluidity.
Whether you need to get back on your feet, Or take your life to the next level. Men’s therapy online has your back. We help our members become a true 21st century man, a man who is not burdened by the rapid change of society, but who contributes to it honorably. If you’re interested in signing up and finding your band of brothers, go to menstherapy.
online to learn more. That’s menstherapy. online. Start your journey today.
Brad Wetzler: It’s your world, motivate, change, succeed, voiceamericanpowerment. com.[00:39:00]
Intro: You are listening to the Men’s Therapy Podcast with Mark Azulay. To reach the show today, please call 1 888 346 9141. That’s 1 888 346 9141. Or send an email to podcast at men’s therapy dot online or visit www. menstherapypodcast. com. Back to the men’s therapy podcast.
Mark: Welcome back to the show. You’re a Brad Webster, the author of into the soul of the world.
And we’re going to talk about the soul of the world. You know, I really want to talk to you about spirituality. You know, it’s something that. Yeah, I guess I’ve give you a little context, gone through waves of, you know, I was a seeker, you know, I was born culturally Jewish, but didn’t connect too much to that.
Um, studied a lot of like Buddhism, Hinduism, did meditation retreats, a ton of those. I’m doing nature connection stuff. I’m about to go into vision quest, but like, I don’t know, like, like, like it’s something [00:40:00] that’s important, but I don’t, I don’t have a grasp on yet. Yeah. You know, I’m kind of doing. Yeah.
What I see is kind of a male process of like, just throwing myself into situations and listening, you know, like growing through challenge and growing through adversity. Um, but yeah, but I’m curious about you, right? Like, it sounds like you’ve had a mystical connection in some form or another your whole life.
Yeah, as well. Do you want to talk about that?
Brad Wetzler: Yeah, you know, again, when I was a kid, I had this deep connection with Jesus, and, and, you know, would listen to Jesus Christ Superstar over and over again, and just, you know, the fascination with this man who was compassionate, and strong, and said truth to power, that was my obsession with it.
It wasn’t, it was less And it was a deeply religious experience, but it was also masculine. I mean, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, admiration of his masculinity. Again, the softer, but strong masculinity. But then I left that behind when I went to college and I found the beat writers. And for a while that became my religion.
And. [00:41:00] Um, and then I was a grumpy journalist, an atheist for a long time, and I actually equate that period with my downfall a bit, that I had gone away from a spiritual life. And so, in mid life, after I wandered around Israel and Palestine trying to see if I could believe in Jesus again, which is part of the book, I came home knowing I couldn’t.
But I did come home having my heart opened and knowing that spirituality had to be a part of it. My my journey forward and I I went down the the yoga rabbit hole. I I dabbled in buddhism like you did and and you know i’ve done a lot of reading and studying of of those traditions and You know and then more recently and I know you you know, I I sort of fell into the young rabbit hole and and that that’s really um It’s brought some interesting perspectives and changed my spirituality a bit.
I do now see the ways that [00:42:00] My eastern dabbling can be ego driven in a way, and that there’s some depth that I’m not able to get through that path. But, you know, to cut to the chase here, I just do think that the fact that religion has played such a central role in our lives, in human lives over the past century, Millennia is is proof in itself that we are we are religious people spiritual people.
I mean Whether or not there’s a a god an external god or whatever you want to talk about we are we are wired for god and which is sort of the the title i’m i’m playing with for my next book and um, you know, and I think when when you accept that and and and And and take the pressure off of people the need for for scientific proof of of God.
I think that’s a setup. We’ll never have it. And in fact, it’s it’s it’s actually antithetical to the notion of God. And so, You know, I talk in my book [00:43:00] about, um, during the Enlightenment, the word faith and belief changed dramatically. Uh, before the Enlightenment, there was a sense of having faith was, was to steep in something.
You know, like whether you’re a Christian, you steeped in this, this religion of Jesus, you know, and in Jesus Christ himself or with the energy of that. And after the, after the Enlightenment, um, You know, we became much more fact based thinkers and, and we linguistically, um, screwed ourselves by, you know, to believe in something required the, uh, an object to believe in and, and it, those sentences no longer made sense to, to have faith or to have a deep belief, um, in something beyond and, and we just sort of, we tricked ourselves out of the ability and so, Um, I’m just right now really landed in a place.
I’m still deeply on a yogic path, but I’m also, um, you know, [00:44:00] I’m now playing more with, with my faith and also the idea that we can develop it. I think I’m a man with a lot of doubt, you know, I just have a lot of doubt. Um, I’ll always be pulled. I’ll, I’ll go to bed a firm believer in God. I’ll wake up, you know, you’re so ridiculous.
You’ve got, uh, you know, here’s, you’re, you’re a man of science too. And there’s, there’s a certain, Push pull with that, but I think, um, softening, again, in other words, softening around these concepts, and, and, and opening and accepting that these, these are concepts that have smooth, not rough, not, they’re not squares, you know, they’re not concepts that have easily definable edges, they’re, they’re soft concepts that we can feel into and not need Empirical proof on so that’s kind of where I say long journey.
That’s kind of where I am right now. I’ve been rereading the Bible, in fact, um, Um. As well as staying in this other path, I’m on with plans to go back to [00:45:00] India. I, Yeah, I hope that that answers your question, but there’s a lot of complexity to that, but I think I spend a lot of time. I wake up very early, not by choice.
I wake up at about 445 and I spend a good 2 hours in kind of quiet contemplation reading and not so much a formal practice even anymore right now. Just just dim light and and some some. Chanting music and, and just being present, that to me feels, feels as powerful and as useful as, as really, you know, a very rigorous meditation practice.
Mark: Yeah, I like that a lot, right? Just creating space to listen and to surrender and to see what arises, you know,
Brad Wetzler: and I do think something arises, you know, I do think, um, um, I become more present to, you know, to not only my dreams, but to things that happen in my reality. And thanks again to Yong, I no longer see things [00:46:00] as coincidences, you know, I was going through something last week, and, uh, intense.
And, and, and, uh, Some wasps came and built their nest on my deck, you know, and and a year ago when I was finishing my books book I was feeling really connected to my soul and and I was seen to be surrounded by white doves And now this sounds like the the ravings of a madman But I think when you start to listen you see the soul of the world start to come out of this It might actually be speaking to you, you know
Mark: Yeah, I do.
I mean, I said I’m going to unvision quest for the 1st time in a couple weeks, which is like 10 days out in nature, solo fasting for 4 of them. And it’s that type of idea of trying to go out and listen. And yeah, again, I don’t really have a cosmology. I’m not sure if I’m at, like, believing in a deity or anything yet.
Um, but I want to track realness. Right. For me, yoga was a, was an entry into that of being like, wow, my body feels deeper than I [00:47:00] could even comprehend, you know, um, some psychedelic use in my younger years was, I think the original gateway to that, you know, like silent meditation retreat opens that up. Just being like, whoa, there is more to reality.
I don’t know what it is. I don’t really care about finding an answer, right? Like, I don’t need to have like a dogma, but I do want to experience it. I do want to feel something that feels out of the ordinary. Right.
Brad Wetzler: You
Mark: know,
Brad Wetzler: yeah, and reality. I mean, there’s a lot of a lot of thinkers and theologists have talked about reality being, you know, God comes at you disguised as reality, you know, and I think we get caught in the West with this idea about.
How could there be suffering if there’s a God? But I think they don’t have that problem in the East, you know. They have this acceptance that God comes in various, many ways. And He comes as reality, you know. There was a prayer that I started using a few months ago. I read from Richard Rohr. And, uh, He, uh, [00:48:00] He’s, I think it’s a, uh, it’s a Franciscan prayer, but it’s just 2 lines, uh, who are you God?
And who am I? And just repeating those, those lines over and over again as a prayer is and listening is pretty powerful. I’m noticing. So
Mark: that’s pretty cool.
Brad Wetzler: Yeah.
Mark: Yeah.
Brad Wetzler: Not having any, no certainty, right? The absence of certainty. So, and just questioning, right? Just questioning and listening.
Mark: Yeah. And, yeah, I think, I don’t know, I don’t want to, I would never say this as a younger person, but I do think our culture needs some sort of spirituality, whether that be, you know, and again, I pull it down to, like, a sense of belonging, a sense of ethics, a sense of compassion, right?
Like, whatever form that takes doesn’t really matter to me. But I think, like, the stuff that I imagine came with that is, I think, really, really needed. Yeah. You know, feeling like we’re all in a community. We’re not just, like, fighting. All the time.
Brad Wetzler: Yeah, you know, I know there’s a cliche about us Westerners [00:49:00] discovering yoga and Eastern, Eastern wisdom, but you know, when I, when I began, when I discovered yoga philosophy and learned even the simple yamas and niyamas, there’s an ethic system I’d rejected, you know, I’d rejected my Christianity by that point, but I was living without any kind of ethical system.
And it was nice to see an ethical system I could get behind. Um, you know, and then also in a yoga class, I think one of my first yoga classes after my, after getting off of all those drugs, it was just your typical Dharma talk from, from a teacher who was probably 26 years old and, and yet it was so profound at the time.
I remember, um, you know, talking about how, We are, we are lights within and, and this, this sort of light might get covered, tarnished up a bit and, and our work as in yoga class or in prayer or whatever is to polish that light, which, which was a big difference between what I grew up with, [00:50:00] with, um, original sin and, and so that began to To lead me back again to circle back to this gentleness and softness, um, that there’s a way we are okay inside rather than deeply broken and, uh, and that that was a big shift for me to start to embrace that.
Yeah, that was my main shift to an Eastern philosophy,
Mark: right? Of like, not feeling like a, like, yeah, because Westerns, like, downtown, you’re, you’re original sin. You’re like a beast, right? You’re like a savage creature. You’re like, only id, right? Where it’s like, that sucks. I mean, I mean, again, it’s hard to know what’s true, but like, you can pick what you want to believe.
And I would much rather believe that. Yeah. I’m like an open, spiritual, loving creature. And yeah, sometimes I fuck up and sometimes I have to polish that up or dig out the mud, but like ultimately there’s basic goodness there. Yeah.
Brad Wetzler: Well, you know, and I think the original Greek to sin means to miss the mark only.
It doesn’t mean, you know, that you are a horrible person. And so even Christianity got, [00:51:00] got warped from its original intent. So, yeah. Yeah, the whole final judgment thing
Mark: really, you know, screwed it up. You know, like, I mean, like, yeah, Jewish religion, there isn’t that right. There isn’t like a final judgment.
Like, we’re all judged all the time. We’re guilted all the time. Right. By our moms. Yeah. It’s not by God, but there is just like ethical debate piece that comes up with, like, yes, if you make a mistake, you have to make amends, right? Like, you don’t just get away with it, but it’s not like you’re going to burn in hell
Brad Wetzler: forever.
You know, right. Well, in the east, you’ll come back as some insect or worse, you know, in your next life, but yeah, your
Mark: worm or like a
Brad Wetzler: donkey testicle or whatever,
Mark: right? Like that’s your, that’s your punishment. Well, you know, bro, we got to start to wrap up. There’s a lot of good stuff here. I can’t wait to have you on the show again.
Um, but as we’re wrapping up, where can people find you online if they want to know more about you and your book and what you do out there?
Brad Wetzler: Yeah, um, you can find me at bradwetzler. com, and that’s B R A D N W E T Z L E R [00:52:00] dot com, and you can find out about my courses. I teach memoir courses, transformative memoir courses.
If you’ve had a hard journey in life, uh, um, You know, I’d love to help you, uh, write about it to heal, and maybe to publish, too. And then, um, that’s the essential way. My book is available at Amazon and other booksellers. It’s called Into the Soul of the World, My Journey to Healing, and I would love it if you bought it and read it.
It’s, uh, it’s quite a story. I was an adventure writer by training, and so this journey of recovery is told a bit as an adventure. It’s a page turner, so.
Mark: That’s awesome. Yeah. Thank you for tuning in. Go check out the book. It’s awesome. Like into the soul of the world, give it an order, give it a pre order, like really, really give it a read.
I think there’s a lot of good stuff there. Um, so yeah, thanks for tuning into men’s therapy podcast. Our inaugural episode, um, we’ll keep moving forward and can niche down the show and just talking to guys out there that want, want something more, right. That one, like a little bit more depth that wants some more healing that know [00:53:00] that, Um, the only way forward is through.
So if you’re one of those guys, keep tuning in and the show’s going to keep getting better and better. So thanks so much. And we’ll see you next week. Another episode of men’s therapy podcast.
Intro: Thank you for joining your host, Mark on the men’s therapy podcast. Be sure to tune in again, live next Friday at 2 PM. Eastern time and 11 AM Pacific time on the voice of America empowerment channel. And anywhere podcasts are found to support the show. Leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.
For more information or to apply to be a guest, visit www.menstherapypodcast.com.