How to be Masculine without being a Bro w/ Mitchel Adler

How to be Masculine without being a Bro w/ Mitchel Adler

December 8, 2023

In this episode returning guest Mitchel Adler opens up about his journey of Masculinity. Over the years he’s refined his definition through decades of psychotherapeutic work, organizational consultation, athletics, and fatherhood. Join us as we continue to thread on the definition of modern masculinity.

Episode Transcript:

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[Music] Mark azoulay is an industry leader in

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Psychotherapy and men’s mental health he’s helped countless guys get back on their feet deepen their relationships

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and Excel in their lives now he’s taken all that he has learned and is sharing it with you in each episode Mark will

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interview an expert in the field of masculinity and men’s work we’ll cover topics such as emotional intelligence

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masculine identity anger management Financial Health trauma recovery marriage and divorce ethics and

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spirituality tune in and become a better man 

[Marc] welcome back to the men’s therapy

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podcast I’m here with returning guest Mitchell Adler and we are pivoting from talking about emotional intelligence to

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talking about masculinity um Mitchell welcome to the show [Mitchell] thank you so much Mark I’m so happy to talk to this talk

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to you about this because we were in a therapy group together and I really came to appreciate like your presence in it

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you know and I think really being a masculine therapist is something that is uh rare in a way you know and I like

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[Marc] that you brought your masculinity and your your just like solidity to the group that we were in together so I’m excited to just kind of Riff on that and

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talk about you know your journey with that talk about fatherhood I that’s a a big important piece for you um and just

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get to learn more about you underneath the hood sounds great yeah so let’s just

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kind of start from the beginning right like what is masculine mean to you what messages did you get growing up what’s

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your journey been around that [Mitchell] huh yeah well it’s interesting I was raised uh by

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my father well my parents were married my father was a hairdresser so immediately I had an image of a man as

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uh probably one of the more I guess least masculine

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identified um occupations you know from a stereotypical place and uh for me my

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dad was a very masculine man uh he was a big dude powerful he could be strong and

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loud but he was also kind of soft and kind of sweet and loving as well loved

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nature loved um you know being affectionate he was

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you know was a hugger and would say I love you and so in a lot of ways he I think modeled some decent masculinity

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with the exception of when he would you know being more rageful um modes which

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was like a sort of toxic masculinity that scared the crap out of me and I

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think in some ways part of my development in my own masculinity was sort of uh to work against the energy of

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that like rageful scary side of masculinity yeah I think that’s a story

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[Marc] for a lot of guys right is like we experience that from our fathers or maybe we get bullied or there’s some experience and it’s like I don’t want to

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be that you know I think I forget to coin the term but the idea that young men have like an anti- personality right

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like we don’t know what we want to be but we know we don’t want to be right either we don’t want to be angry or

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maybe we don’t want to be a coward or we don’t want to be weak or whatever right it’s all don’t don’t don’t don’t don’t but there’s not a lot of what we do want

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to be [Mitchell] yes well and when I was younger I was lucky in some way because I was

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pretty athletic uh so as a young kid I played a lot of sports I was played baseball I played hockey um and I was

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pretty good and for some reason I think that gave me a certain cache that allowed me to not have to worry about

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being like enough of a boy like I felt very much like a boy and um it booed me

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for a while until I hit puberty or at least I didn’t hit puberty everyone else hit puberty and I didn’t so where I was

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the allstar pitcher baseball player I suddenly was at 12 or 13 was like

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still pretty small and everyone else started shooting up and that changed a lot for me yeah [Marc] how did you make sense

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of that at that age can you think back to what that experience was like [Mitchell] well I’d say the hardest time of my growth in

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my adult as in my childhood was an adolescence like middle school because that’s when everyone else started

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shooting up they started getting hair on their legs and hair on their face and I didn’t get hair on my legs until I was I

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think 17 or 18 years old I was was the second smallest kid in my junior high

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class oh I didn’t know that yeah yeah yeah so I went from being like in fifth

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grade sort of the kid that everyone looked up to sports-wise and you know would fear me when I’d get on the

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pitcher mound to being in like let’s say eighth grade and I was small I you know

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I was still athletic I could still do things but just the power wasn’t there quite like these other guys who like

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sort of bulked up and uh I was you know four or five inches shorter than everybody else and uh that was a hard

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time trying to figure out like who I was [Marc] yeah isn’t it crazy that like as

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Progressive or enlightened or whatever as you want to be so much of childish stuff is like literally physicality

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right it still kind of goes back to like primate rules yes [Mitchell] well and what’s

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interesting too is during that time I really started making friends with a lot of females so um because I was like I

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realized like okay I’m not going to like make it with the broy guys as they started like really testosteron out um I

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you know I could code switch like and this is something I’ve been able to do throughout my life is code switch sort

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of different parts of myself like I have pretty masculine parts of myself I’m profoundly competitive I’m like super

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competitive but I also really like to try to contain my competitiveness in ways that aren’t like sort of toxic or

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problematic or like get me into trouble um and I just started moving my energy

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into like hanging out with a lot of females which had its own benefits yeah

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I’m curious about that because I had I have a very similar story you know my my dad is one of four he’s the only male

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has three sisters my mom is one of four and they’re all women right I have a sister so I grew up with a ton of women

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in my life and I think I was raised in like a very feminine environment and both the nurturing side and the toxic

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side right so it was a lot of like talking and deep relating but also like the gossip and the kind of like

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cattiness right it was both and I found myself yeah similar age when you’re talking about way more comfortable with

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women like I knew the feminine code a lot more thaning code absolutely I I

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definitely would say I picked up on the feminine code I also have an older sister four years older and my mom and I

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were pretty close and uh I kind of understood sort of going back to that sort of emotional intelligence language

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I really understood emotions I understood what it meant to be empathetic and I knew that if I listened to people they really liked me and uh

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yes yes like I got good at learning how to make good relationships and that was

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a Saving Grace for me uh during that time because I didn’t really have the Bro Code down as much in junior high I

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had the female code down um and then it was in like high school I always had a

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couple of very good friends always had a couple of good male friends that stayed with me from like 8th grade and and

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earlier I mean sorry eight years old and earlier um but I didn’t have like a crew in junior high and that’s hard to not

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have like a crew of guys when you’re really for at least for me I identify

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pretty pretty heart like cisgender male um you know in some ways I’m fortunate

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that I have like a very clear sense of who I am as a man and around my sexuality I felt pretty clear about that

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and so um I didn’t have to struggle I had a lot of privilege in that respect that I didn’t have to struggle with

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those kinds of questions despite the fact that many people thought during Junior High that I was gay because I

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hung out with a lot of a lot of females um but that never bothered me I

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you know back in my day I’m 54 so back then it was still like really I mean I think today and still it’s still a hard

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identity to hold at times um but back then it was a very hard identity to hold and so in some ways I I think I

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navigated that quite well because I just felt very comfortable with who I was and was fortunate in that respect right it

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sounds like you were kind of strug off any of those bullying or teasing or whatever it was because you knew who you were ultimately yeah that’s right that’s

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right and and then fortunately had some meaningful relationships that were also helping me insulate anything that would

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come my way because I got I got a little bit bullied um there was this one little guy he was like five foot he was the

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smallest guy in the junior high and I was and he would bully me um uh which

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was just ridiculous because I felt like I was in a dilemma I couldn’t I couldn’t

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fight him because if I beat him up then I’m the jerk who beat up the little guy and if he beat me up then I’m the loser

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who got beat up by the little guy so I had to kind of like navigate this like torment from this like Pips Creek

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bully it was infuriating it’s like battling for last place right you have to kind of right you’re you’re you’re in

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a bind there yeah you know I the name of this um ttle I want kind of what you wrote of like how to be masul without

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being a bro um and I’m curious during this time you talk about that bro culture and that crew you know and

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there’s a great um masculinity writer this guy Jack Donovan who says that the um smallest unit of masculinity is the

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gang right that we are kind of like evolved to be a group or you know a

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squad or a fire team or whatever right like a sports team um so I wonder when you looking at that into that bro world

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were you did you feel like you didn’t belong or did you feel like you didn’t want to play the game or do you feel

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like you couldn’t win the game like I wonder what the barriers were for you yeah I I was I was clear I didn’t fit

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the game yeah I I didn’t really like the hurting of people in general I really

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just wasn’t into that and the crews that I saw like the the groups I could have

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joined as a like a you know gang I didn’t like the energy of those of those

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gangs so to speak uh and I found that there were more individual people that I

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could really relate to both Fe male and female and I was much more drawn to individuals than I was to a crew and

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you’re right I think having a crew really insulates you it protects you it gives you a certain amount of confidence

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and in junior high I was more like that individual who could really hang out with lots of different different people

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but I didn’t have that crew and I think it was like it just didn’t fit my soul I think I you know there were a couple of

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times I would hang out with a group of guys and I just felt like I could do it I could fake it but it didn’t feel good

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so I found myself more avoiding being a part of that one group and in high

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school I found like I found my crew and that was the best yes so what was that

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like how did you build the crew in high school well it was interesting because it was really a lot of us came back

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together that we were friends in elementary school we went to some different Junior highs and then we all

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came back to the same high school and very quickly found each other and we’re like wait a second you’re like a good

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guy and a bunch of us found each other and then we found like some of these you

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know females that we also became friends with and we became this larger group that felt great and then we had a little

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riff with with the females to the extent that there was drama and and we and the guys just really sort of bonded and we

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had a very good experience and I’m still very close to these guys to this day

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which very fortunate do you have a sense I know you do a lot of like um organizational development leadership work so I want to ask you like do you

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like what the culture of that crew was like that you were building or that you were part of in high school like what

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were some of the ethic that was there well what’s interesting is so um so yeah

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the longer story is that when I was growing up so my my both my parents neither of my parents went to college um

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and I was the first per like my sister went to fit Fashion Institute of Technology but I was the first person to

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graduate from like you know four-year University and um I had a chip on my

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shoulder about not being like smart enough and and the guys that I went to elementary school who I became friends

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with again in high school were really smart guys um you know they went to Ivy

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League schools you know and and were just really bright and I was connecting

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with them and realizing like oh they’re smart they weren’t like the most athletic crew but they were all fine

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enough we could play Ultimate Frisbee together we could do pickup stuff but the energy of that group was like we want to like talk about into interesting

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conversations we would talk about sociopolitical issues and these were things I I just never thought about in

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junior high they were thinking about it and talking about it but I wasn’t part of that crew and so to me like it it

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really opened me up to like intellectual Pursuit social justice kind of thinking

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just sociopolitical thinking and it was exciting to me actually yeah just being like you’re all

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of a sudden open to like a larger world you know yeah well the crew the people I sort of

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were like peripherally hanging out with in junior high a lot of those guys were not interested in anything academic and

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um they were more interested in kind of breaking rules and doing like stuff which is fine I mean I I did a little

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part of that in my life but I I got really excited about a group of people who were um sort of intellectually

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curious engaged they were like they wanted to do something good in the world and I got really into that yeah I I love

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that right because as we were kind of working our way around in defining modern masculinity I see that as like a

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key part right like this idea of being a provider being a protector for the world right giving back being interested

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showing up um kind of having a identity beyond the self would you agree with

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that I would I would um what so yeah we um so I’m Jewish and

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um a bunch of these guys got involved in this Jewish youth group which I then got involved in as well and um they put on

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like a theater production and so I got involved in in theater through that and

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then I started finding theater as this thing I got into and so I started doing theater in high school too and that

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really opened up a whole other the world to me because I found a way to express myself be around other men and women

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male female um who were expressive and interested and engaged and it wasn’t at

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all hyper masculine um but I felt like I could totally be myself and I could put I mean I played Danny Zuko in Greece and

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you know stuff like that um who I could be like the tough guy but also the soft

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guy it was a lot of fun and so I I kind of found myself in high school yeah yeah

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it’s really good and I had a similar thing in college with getting in touch with a lot of like art students drama

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students music students right like where the self-express expression and experimentation felt more open for me

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similarly like just like the hard and fast bro thing I think for me if I’m being honest I was really insecure and I

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felt like if I played the game I would lose right I would lose the athletic game I would lose the the girl game

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right like I just wouldn’t be able to measure up so I I hid for a lot until I met people that had a more expensive def

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of what it was like not just to be a man but I think just to be a human and to be a young adult you know yeah well what’s

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interesting around that um because I can really relate to the part around the losing what I found really tough

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especially with like women when I was younger was that I was very interested in women and I really wanted to um make

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that connection but I would get caught in the friend zone a lot oh all the time yeah and I’d be so afraid of being the

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bro who pushed it into that like you know maybe toxic masculinity or just

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like objectifying them that I would find myself losing in some way and not taking

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the risk to move into that more meaningful romantic relationship and I have a lot of regret about some of those

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moments um that especially in college I think that happened a little too much

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yeah I have some stories too so we move to our first commercial break and we come back may we pick it up there talk about the and talk about you know this

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kind of developing of male sexuality or male game for lack of a better term right because I think a lot of guys

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really do struggle with that and I think a lot of guys in the younger Generations even more so because we don’t want to be a creep or a you know pervert or you

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know something right a predator um and yet there is some level of that that I think is required to to flirt

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effectively um so on that note we’ll pick that back up uh hang on in there and we’ll see you on the other

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side

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now back to the men’s therapy podcast [Music]

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welcome back to the show I’m your host Mark a and I’m here with Mitchell Adler and we’re talking about game we’re

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talking about essentially how men interact with women and some of the struggles that can be there um and about

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being friend zoned so Mitchell take it away well I was thinking about uh you

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know when we took the break I was thinking about my my father didn’t give me a ton of advice in my life but he did give me one piece of advice he said um

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if you are interested in a partner you know make love to their brain first before you make love to them physically

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like meaning like get to know them um get to understand them and know what

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you’re doing like informed consent like he was like an inent a consent guy which I think it’s just such good stuff

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because I think unfortunately in our culture consent you know is something people are starting to like learn more

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about but have not learned enough about and for that generation that’s like incredible for your father’s generation

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to like even language for that or to think that it could be different right you could actually like respect a

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women’s opinion you know is like a very Progressive thought I I agree and I for

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him I appreciate that because I feel like he did he did he did teach me that

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and uh again it it sort of also has the the backfire if overused because then

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that’s where the friend zone piece would happen so when I was in college my freshman year I had a a friend I made

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pretty early this woman that I would was totally in love with just totally in love with her but within the first three

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times of us hanging out she had told me that she had unfortunately been sexually assaulted um in her life and I became

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this very supportive caring friend and it felt like an impossibility to move

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from being this person who is very supportive um into someone that would

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have a romantic relationship I just thought like I will be the perpetrator here if I somehow turn

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what feels like this very supportive caring friendship into something romantic and I spent years stuck in this

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friend zone with this person never ever having gotten out um I had other relationships with other people but that

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to me was like a quintessential experience of the the struggle I have inside myself of wanting to be quote the

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good guy but also um in a way having to then abandon some of my own like

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libidinal desire um that I have as a human being yeah and branding that as

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bad right like it’s it’s it’s almost very like Puritan in a way right that the fact that you might desire this woman who it sounds like you got really

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close with um was bad or something to be shameful um or some like monstrous part

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of you right that had to get cut out yes and and that and that fits with because

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of the kind of person I am and that you know I’m I’m a clinical psychologist so I I was I was bred in a way to learn how

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to listen and be empathetic and compassionate and all of that and so I attracted a lot of people and in

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particular women who would tell me their stories of struggles they’ve had with men because I was a safe man and so this

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inspired me to want to join this sexual assault prevention and awareness Center at University of Michigan where I went

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and so I was like going out and giving talks on how to raise awareness around

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how all men could be potential rapists if we’re not paying attention to the power we have the Privileges we have and

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the impact that we can have and so that also I think compounded a lot of my sensitivity to um really not being that

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toxic guy yeah might be too you know exposing a question like did you get

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laid during that like was there any oh oh yeah I did or like how far did you go

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no I mean but I think I was like careful I think I could have I what I what I did is I wasn’t so needing to have like

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sexual intercourse like that wasn’t my thing but I really liked kissing and I really liked you know touching and

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having consensual physical intimacy so yeah I wasn’t looking to uh just have

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sex with random people that kind of wasn’t my thing but I really enjoyed like the the lighter hookup and I did

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have plenty of those but I was I was very thoughtful about it and for some women it was really a turn on for them

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and then for the women who you know that’s not a turn on they just kind of wanted a guy who’s kind of a little bit

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more broy and like hey look you’re hot and I want to be with you and like like and or just they just initiate the kiss

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out of nowhere um that was less my style I just didn’t didn’t do that and I would

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have had a lot more hookups had I been like that probably but it wasn’t my style and I I Feel Pretty good overall

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about how much I was able to do but you know there were a few times I I missed

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out on some things yeah I I the same thing I think for me it was a lot more yeah it was it was fear and this idea of

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like being the bad guy you know I think from some of my experiences growing up right my mom had her own

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uh cache of trauma right and would often tell me or she would you know in the most inappropriate things like complain

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about my dad to me a lot and be like don’t be a man like this don’t do that don’t do this right just a lot of like

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messaging about what not to do but not so much about what to do and i’ I really struggled with like especially with

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women of like how to be with them in a way that came across as attractive and not just fully in the supportive role

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you know yeah and I I felt like I was at a wall like I feel like I I had a lot of that like uh approach anxiety right

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initiation anxiety of going in for the first kiss or making the move or or things like that um because I I was

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terrified of being that like bad man or that like almost like brutish like there I had this like May coping thing like

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this coping thing of like I was more evolved or enlightened or or something right I was like I wasn’t this like

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Savage masculine thing out there that’s right and and that’s in a way you know

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using kind of really crude language here that’s a play a play would be like I’m

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the guy who’s the good guy I’m the sweet guy I’m not the guy who’s going to you know put the moves on you in ways that

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feel uncomfortable I’m going to make you feel really safe and for some women that’s going to work really well and for

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some women they’re going to be like you know wow I do not find you you know viral and sexy and hot and I have a

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desire like uh you know I go to burning man I I’ve been to Burning Man like seven times or so and in the many years

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I’ve been going you know I I skip years so I’ve been going for like maybe 10 10 12 15 years and uh I’ve explored

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different parts of myself going there and the first year I went I would wear I wore skirts because it was just flowy

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and it felt like really free and open but but I realized like it didn’t capture the kind of like rugged

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masculinity that I I wanted to like portray and it just I come like the next

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year and every year since I’ve really shifted like my whole Persona there because that there is this part of me

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that really wants to be a bit of like like a sexy hot guy not just the sweet

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guy but I love the combo of the two I like to feel like I’m sexy and I’m hot and like a woman would want me but I’m

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also sweet and I’m tender and I’m caring and I’ll be there for you but I’m also I

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could be tough like I can be all of it and I really like having the dimensionality to it Bernie man really

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help me with that yeah I’m so curious so what’s your Burning Man Persona well my my PL name is Arrow okay

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um and because like uh I’m a straight shooter but I’m like I can Pierce and

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I’m like solid and I’m dangerous but I’m also like something that takes

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finesse um and is agile so like that’s sort of it and yeah um yeah like I have

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a crew we give out we’re the wild stallions of decadence okay roam the pla

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offering decadent experiences to people that sounds is that’s awesome oh it’s

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awesome it’s awesome that’s awesome that’s that’s really cool yeah um and while you’re talking I wanted to throw

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this Theory you can let me know what you think about it or maybe how you embody it you know with the guys that I work with I used kind of the um the metaphor

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of like the tool belt right as like you know guys love tools love having the right tool for the job and that can extend into our lives right this idea of

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having that full spectrum of masculinity just like you said right there’s times where we do have to be tough and lay down the law but there times we have to

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also be really tender and be supportive and really Comfort our partner or CH or child or something right and there’s

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times we have to really invoke discipline and do we don’t want to do and there’s times we have to really invoke Leisure and and try to figure out

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how to really rest and I think like it’s about which I think is a very masculine

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thing of like seeing the problem and deploying the proper tool um in a way

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that like is appropriate for the situation and for the energy of the room um so yeah I’m curious your thoughts on

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that and how you’ve developed that it sounds like you you have a version of that for sure uh yeah I absolutely I

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really like the idea of I like how you framed it especially with the metaphor of the tool belt ironically I’m one of

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the least mechanically inclined people I know in fact we have a handyman in my house right now doing work in my house

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because I’m terrible at it um and I own that like it’s such a it’s such a like

28:46

stereotype of masculinity and I’ve just come to accept like yeah I’m not that way and uh it’s very helpful that I

28:53

accept it instead of trying to like but but in in response to what you’re saying I noticed this in sports

28:59

so I picked up Sports again in my like mid to late 20s now I play basketball two or three times a week I play

29:06

Ultimate Frisbee I play um pickle ball now is like huge sport for me and I like

29:13

I said I’m very competitive I like really like to play hard but I also really like to be a good sport and

29:20

sometimes that’s really hard to do to want to win more than like anything and

29:25

play my heart out but then to be able to say good game to be able to not be a

29:31

dick on the court when I make a w make an error like throwing my racket or whatever like I really like to be able

29:38

to tell someone when they when they beat me like on a move to the basket I’m like dude that was a great move you know

29:44

there’s a little part of me that’s like pissed about it that they did that to me but another part of me is like I want to be the guy who can be like dude you got

29:51

me there like good job and I want to feel like I can feel good about when I do well but not have to stick it in

29:58

their face whereas I’ve played with guys who are you know just toxic in that way

30:03

um and I really don’t like playing with people like that yeah what do you think that’s from like is it a insecurity or

30:10

is it just like you know the unbridled Rage or what do you think that that is well there’s a culture in a lot of

30:17

Athletics at least where um it’s all about power domination strength and

30:22

intimidation and I’ve fortunately found um communities of sporting folks

30:29

like so I have a basketball group where we rent out the high school gym and a bunch of us play there like 40 of us and we have games going um but I’ve played

30:37

on courts where it’s all about domination intimidation and like I’m not

30:42

like I’m 54 when I get hurt I’m out for months and so I don’t need some 22y old

30:48

guy who’s trying to prove his masculinity or prove that he could dominate me you know elbow me in the

30:53

face because he’s going up for a rebound because he wants to get it that is just not worth it for me but I think it’s

30:59

about a sense of power um a sense of domination and yeah I don’t that’s not

31:05

where I need to do it yeah yeah I’m curious what you think about this idea I

31:11

think um Jordan Pearson’s talked about it recently but this idea of like hierarchies right and the idea that the

31:17

world because the world civilized we have many many different types of hierarchies right it’s not just like the monkey rule of the biggest strongest

31:23

monkey wins right intellectual and spiritual and emotional ET all Stu we’re talking about um absolutely but his

31:30

theory is that men are hyper aware of where they are in these hierarchies and they do strive to to climb one of them

31:38

right it’s like they you kind of have to like Speck into something because you know there is there doesn’t seem to be this almost biological drive to like

31:44

climb ladders do would you agree with that or what do you think ABS absolutely and so here’s I think it’s perfect

31:51

because I do know where I stand most of the time for instance when I play basketball I play basketball ball and

31:57

when I’m playing with big dudes they will know immediately I don’t want to get hurt and I I’m going to be like look

32:03

I’m I’m I’m I’m looking to get hurt and I’m I’m open I’m five I’m 5’10 and I weigh about 155 I’m not a big dude I’m

32:11

wiry I’m strong for like my physical size but I’m the first one to admit that

32:16

like I’m not going up for a hardcore rebound I’m gonna let someone else get that rebound but I’ll play on the

32:21

perimeter and I’ll run my ass off and I’ll play defense really tough but I already know like yeah a lot of these

32:26

guys they’re physically stronger they’re physically bigger and I can live with the fact that I don’t have to prove that

32:31

I don’t have to prove anything about that to people in those kinds of situations whereas I think there are

32:37

there are some guys out there who are trying to prove that they’re physically strong they’re physically tough and that’s not my thing I want to prove that

32:44

I’m physically agile and I actually can shoot the ball really well and I can play good D so I do get competitive in

32:51

that way but I know where I am on the hierarchy of strength I know so that that helps me a lot is I just don’t have

32:57

much to prove there right and and you have a place too right it’s like you don’t need to move up or move down as

33:03

long as you’re in your spot because there’s some I think there’s like a level of comfort there and a level of

33:08

just like belonging almost you know yes yeah I’ve done a lot of owning of my um

33:15

strengths and limitations in a lot of contexts you know like I own that I like

33:20

John Denver and I like Neil Diamond like I and Barry Manalo like I appreciate that music as well as I like really

33:27

enjoy Eminem and I can enjoy you know Bruce Springsteen like but a lot of guys would feel like I’m not going to admit I

33:33

like John Denver it’s like yeah I like John I don’t care I stand proud like

33:39

John is great you’re talking from Colorado you know that’s like our national an exactly exactly so but I

33:45

think for a lot of men unfortunately it’s hard to own some of those kinds of things um but I I feel really

33:52

comfortable enough with my masculinity that I feel like I can own a lot of um pieces of myself that I think a lot of

33:58

young men these days struggle with I I agree yeah yeah I definitely get that sense from you um I I want to Pivot a

34:05

little bit to fatherhood um and this idea of male nurturing and male love

34:12

right and maybe how might be different than feminine love or what it’s like to be a father because I think yeah kind of

34:17

for a lot of those tough guys it’s it’s difficult to all of a sudden really be in a caregiver role right like as a

34:22

father you are a caregiver for these little beings um I know that fatherhood that’s a very important part of your

34:29

identity it is yeah um well I can’t start with fatherhood without starting

34:34

with my wife who I met um over 29 years ago on on December 2nd we um celebrated

34:41

our 29th SCH anniversary which is the anniversary of when we first started dating um so I’ve been with this woman

34:47

for 29 years and she has been just a super human in my life someone who has

34:53

really um I think appreciated me for all of the Mas Uline and um you know I don’t

34:59

know what to call the non-masculine but just like the full range of my masculinity um I’ve always felt very

35:05

good about who I am as a man in with her and that’s been great and uh yeah I have

35:11

two daughters um and they’re now in like 20 and 17 uh but raising my daughters has

35:19

been one of the most profound experiences around being a man I mean I I knew I wanted to be a dad when I was 5

35:25

years old uh I actually remember the moment when I thought like I want to be a dad and I

35:31

want to be able to do it in a way that was a little bit different I think than the way I was fathered as much as I love

35:36

my dad and I have a nice relationship with him there were ways heaed that I really think could have been done

35:42

differently and I’ve like was committing my life at 5 years old to doing that differently and I will say that I feel

35:49

you know probably the the thing in my life I feel most proud of and when you say like you know the hierarchy thing

35:55

like where do you you know to get that confidence in yourself the one thing I feel like I know I’ve done really well

36:01

or well enough is I think I’m a good dad certainly a good enough dad I mean I’ve up plenty of times but um yeah

36:09

and I’m happy to talk as much as you want about being a dad yeah that that’s that’s beautiful and talk about like a

36:15

full completion right from five years old to now of like really realizing a dream um we’re going to move to our

36:21

final commercial break when we come back I want to dig in this topic a lot especially the idea of you know what you think masculine love is um and how you

36:28

can apply that to to a child you know um so when we come back we’ll dig into that

36:33

topic hang on in there and we’ll see you on the other

36:44

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38:38

now back to the men’s therapy podcast welcome back to the show uh we

38:44

are talking with Mitchell Adler and we’re talking about fatherhood and masculine love um so I think it’s a

38:49

topic that I wish there was more talk about right like what it means to be a male care caregiver and still and do it

38:57

like a man I guess for like a better term you know because I do think the polarity between the feminine and

39:02

masculine energies is what creates a full upbringing for a human um so I

39:08

think there is something very unique about a masculine love um so I’m get over to you Mitchell what are your

39:13

thoughts on that on masculine love yeah it’s hard it’s hard to know exactly what what we mean when we say masculine love

39:20

other than the fact that I’m a man and I do a lot of loving um so you know I do

39:26

believe I believe a lot in love in that I’ve used before the idea that like love

39:31

is like a candle where you can you can give it away and it doesn’t diminish you can light like a million candles with

39:37

one candle and it doesn’t diminish your flame so I just think if you have love inside you like give it away like just

39:43

give it because it doesn’t diminish it only like increases the light around you so um you know as a as a we can talk

39:52

about it as a dad or as um well how about this so when my first daughter was

39:58

born uh I had a baby naming ceremony in my backyard and we had some friends over

40:03

and this one guy came over to me and he said you seem like and I just moved to Davis California where I live and he

40:09

said you seem like the kind of guy that would want to be in a men’s group and I was like yeah I am the kind of guy that

40:14

would want to be in a men’s group and I’d never been in one before and so he and I um decided to start a peer-led

40:21

men’s group uh and so we picked some guys and for the past 20 years we’ve

40:26

been meeting twice a month for two hours uh as a men’s group where we are there

40:32

to support each other bear witness to our uh lives to challenge each other

40:37

around our blind spots about who we are to explore who we are as men uh as

40:43

parents all of us are parents um all of us were married some are divorced now um

40:50

but most are married still uh but we have really it has been first of all I

40:55

absolutely love the these men these men have helped me to really um understand a lot more about the breadth of what

41:02

masculinity is um they’re not like crazy masculine manly men but they’re also

41:08

like you know solidly men uh and so it’s just been really helpful for me in

41:14

watching them raise their kids as I raise my kids and exploring all that

41:20

goes into some stuff like that yeah I I love that obviously I mean I’m in my own men’s group I run men’s groups and I

41:27

always use like the metaphor of like the lodge you know which most cultures had a version of like a men’s Lodge or a men’s

41:33

hall or something like that a space where you know after men were doing their missions of the day whether it be

41:39

hunting or farming or you know craftsmanship or whatever right they would all gather and they would just ch they would just talk right and they

41:46

would have conversations about life or about the town or about Society or whatever was going on and I feel like

41:51

you know it’s a little prosti I guess but like as men we don’t really have that or our version is like Twitter or

41:58

something right like it feels like more complaining and less connective um and a lot of men I think are really alone

42:04

because we go we still do our missions we go out in the day and do our jobs and go through trials and tribulations but

42:09

we don’t have like a a lodge to come back to um in a way that we can debrief with other guys yeah it’s really

42:16

unfortunate that there aren’t more institutionalized ways that this exists I’ve certainly spent a lot of time

42:22

developing this in my life both in the men’s group I just described and I also have like small Crews of men I have like

42:29

a golfing crew guys that I go out with I have my basketball buddies that will go and have a beer like twice a month on a

42:36

Friday after work or you know whatever it is I have like I’ve really developed

42:41

these groups of men in my life that I feel very close with I still have female friends as well but as I’ve gotten older

42:47

it’s a little bit different I don’t I’m in a consultation group and it’s three women Four Women and me um uh but uh

42:56

generally I’m I surround myself with these pockets of men to uh do you know

43:02

to help the different parts of my masculinity and identity emerge you know I do a lot of different stuff with the

43:08

basketball buddies I have a beer with than the guys that I are in my men’s group uh and I really love the kind of

43:14

flexibility of all that yeah it’s kind of go back to that tool belt thing right you get to like ho hone and sharpen your

43:21

tools with these different guys um yes and similar like I have like my outdoor buddies where we do these you know back

43:26

packing Adventures I got my gym buddies um and then I have a men’s group by something that’s a lot more like emotional and deep um and I think I

43:33

think as men like you know for good or for for bad like we compartmentalize I think our brain works in like

43:39

compartments so it it’s helped me to have a compartment of emotional intimacy right it’s like okay I go here and I do

43:46

emotions for two hours right it has a start time and end time and then it’s good um but it keeps me you know

43:53

continuing to dip my toes into those Waters do you think you wouldn’t um you

43:58

wouldn’t go there as much if you didn’t have those places I think that there would be I

44:04

think both I would not go there or I would go there at inappropriate times I think would be the thing right like I I

44:10

think my tendency would be to bottle things up or to push things away kind of have like an avoidant attachment and

44:16

then it would come out in more of like either an explosion or like an incident or some you know half coocked

44:23

conversation you know so so with my you a lot of it especially in a relationship a lot of it now is like

44:29

thinking about ways to speak to my partner and like figuring out how I feel about certain issues in a place that I

44:35

feel safer so then I can then bring it back into my real world right bring it back into my you know growing family um

44:41

in a way that is productive instead of it just like coming out all weird yeah

44:47

well that makes a lot of sense to me because that I did a lot around parenting you know um I was I’m the

44:52

youngest person in my men’s group not by a lot for some but um but I’m the youngest and all of them have kids so I

44:59

would talk to them about all the dilemmas that come up around raising kids and you know I’m sure there’s

45:04

something about raising do uh about Sons I I have two daughters so I don’t know what it’s like to raise a son but with

45:10

daughters you know uh having having places to talk about what it means to

45:15

have a daughter and to be there for them and to support them and you know there’s a classic thing where men when

45:21

adolescent girls become adolescents a lot of fathers can pull away from their daughter because they can get afraid of

45:27

that Sexual Energy and what that means and you know I learn through them and through Reading and through just my own

45:33

instincts that like I’m staying connected to my kids and I can support them in their development in many ways

45:40

and um it’s just been so essential so I really relate to what you’re saying about going to an environment that can

45:46

be supportive and help us make sense of things that are confusing to us and then bring it back to the environments that we can you know really use it

45:53

effectively yeah just kind of like threading in out you know um yeah so so

45:58

I’m curious like with your daughters right what are some of the ways that you do support and love them what are some of the ways that you’ve honed and

46:04

practiced over these years well for me it’s all about the relationship so my

46:09

wife and I have um we met actually directing I directed a countywide youth program in Marin County like many many

46:16

years ago and we met through that program like she was also working in that world and so we we work together

46:22

with kids and the whole my whole philosophy with um with kids was always like it’s about the relationship and so

46:28

my wife and I really have never we don’t really punish it’s weird like we never had timeouts we didn’t really punish our

46:35

kids what we would do is we would talk to them and and be in relationship with them and talk about the impact of

46:41

behaviors on on them on us and we’ve just kept such an incredibly open space

46:48

for us to talk about everything that um we’re just in relationship and sometimes

46:54

that’s hard you know sometimes my kids have hard things they want to talk about sometimes they’re angry with us and we

47:00

are always wanting them to tell us when they are angry with us just like a good therapist you know like we want there to

47:06

be dialogue so we just work our asses off and I work my ass off to just be available and when they don’t want to

47:13

talk I they get to not talk you know I I let them have their space but I don’t

47:18

let it go without my checking in yeah so I’m always you know paying attention and just from like when they were little I

47:24

was like getting on the floor with them playing pretty pretty princess dress up they would you know do whatever they wanted to me and I just like I do dishes

47:31

in front of them because I that’s what I do I do the dishes because I’m not the best cook and I’m you know cleaning the

47:37

house and I model being like I think a progressive conscious man uh and I think

47:45

they respect me for being like someone who respects my wife she respects me

47:51

it’s all mixed in together I respect them as human beings and I’ve always tried to do that the whole way

47:57

through yeah I really like that and and to pick up on a piece of what you said I love the like accountability part and

48:04

the

48:09

truthtellah wants to name right I mean think of Courage right I mean that’s like it’s like charging into battle with

48:15

your eyes open right being like yeah we need to talk about this thing I need to like create space to talk about it um

48:21

and it just yeah I touched them when you think of your daughters don’t want to talk I imagine as a part of you where you’re like okay I just want them to

48:26

know that they that you see them and that you love them and that you’re there that’s what’s more important often than

48:32

you know resolving the issue but being like right and then I’m gonna check in again I’ll check in again and you can

48:38

continue to say you’re not ready but I might start to tell you that I’m having a reaction to the fact that like it’s

48:43

been three days and we haven’t talked about something that’s really important and like you matter to me and there’s

48:48

something that feels like we’re we’re struggling here and so unless we talk about it we’re not really going to

48:54

seemingly get through this a lot lot of things can just get blown off like you know but if there’s something that lasts for more than two days you know we

49:01

really we our family I I don’t think we’ve ever really gone more than two days uh three days at a Max with us

49:07

having a tension that does not get addressed that’s incredible I mean well I just I don’t I don’t know how to live

49:13

I I mean I mean this in a real sincere way Mark like I don’t know how to live with a kind of tension like that um what

49:20

what that means is like they still have the right to their privacy and they still have a right to be irritated with me but it’s like I have some sense of

49:26

what it is and then I have to accept all right this is something I can’t control me my kids have struggled with life

49:32

struggles that like I can’t control and I all I could do is be there for them and I have to accept that like this

49:38

isn’t one of those things that I can do other than just they know I’m here but now at least I have a sense of what it is and that’s all that’s what I mostly

49:45

just need yeah you know I totally get that and I’m just thinking back to you know to my family and I imagine most

49:51

families there’s tensions that have existed for decades right like it’s just stuff that never gets talked about or

49:56

stuff that is kind of always whispered or or in the background or something so that’s why I’m sitting here with my jaw

50:02

on the ground of like it’s I I mean selfishly I guess like it would be very

50:07

healing for me just to know that the thing is named that like even if it’s not resolved like at least everyone

50:13

knows there’s tension instead of what I think happens in a lot of families and certainly in mine of like pretending

50:19

everything’s okay right but we’re not gonna We’re not gonna go there right we’re not going to go to that closet exactly and we’ll get give you one good

50:26

example my um my oldest daughter is studying abroad this year and uh we were

50:31

trying to figure out financially how we were going to like work out like money she gets and doesn’t get what’s what is

50:36

she paying for what am I paying for and you know I grew up in an environment where money was a really vexed problem

50:41

in my family system and I’ve struggled in my life with knowing like how much do I pay for things for my kids versus make

50:47

them work for it and you know I’m blessed to have some Financial Resources so like I could pay for a lot more

50:53

things for her but I want her to learn learn how to do it and at one point you know as I’m sort of trying to figure

50:58

this out with my wife but like this is more my issue than it is my wife’s issue my my daughter like looked me in the eye

51:05

and she was like you are with me here like this is me up what

51:11

you’re what you’re trying to figure out about your relationship with money and me is me up and I just had to be

51:16

like she’s right like I am caught in something that I’m working through

51:22

that I am not I don’t have it so I had to defer in a way to my wife me like I need help I need help to know like the

51:30

reality testing around what should we be doing here because I was too she was getting sucked into my unresolved issue

51:38

around money in her and it was very ey openening for me and I really like we both started crying my daughter and I

51:46

because I was like so thankful that she could tell me that yeah and that uh and I don’t want to do that to her and I

51:52

want to like Empower her to feel like she can always speak up for herself when she feels like someone isn’t

51:58

understanding her it was like a painful and profoundly um kind of heartwarming and rewarding experience even though it

52:06

was painful yeah but but it it’s a culmination of all the work and parenting that you did up to that point

52:11

that like you said she felt safe enough and clear enough to be able to do that with her with her dad of no less right

52:17

like be able to kind of jump the power structure and give you that feedback yeah and hopefully we can stop the

52:23

intergenerational trauma yeah around like this Finance stuff because it’s much more in the open now and and it

52:30

hadn’t been because I don’t think it really had like this this abroad thing really like brought it to a head and uh

52:37

I’m I’m glad for it even though I think it’s going to be you know it’s going to be a process what did you end up doing I’m just curious like how did you

52:43

resolve it uh well we resolved it by saying let’s stay in dialogue around it let’s stay in open dialogue around it

52:50

and and the reality is is I’m going to I think support her a little bit more financi she is the most responsible kid

52:55

and I’m sitting here treating her in a way like she’s not by saying like I I want you to have I want you to learn

53:02

this skill she’s like do you not think I learned the skill she was like had a job at Starbucks in high school when she didn’t need to she got into UCLA she’s

53:09

like done all this she works like three jobs at UCLA because she believes in the value of money and like doing that I’m

53:16

like yeah what the hell am I thinking that I’m not seeing that he’s like what do I need to show you that I I respect

53:22

money and I’m like you’re right yeah she already learned lesson yeah

53:27

yeah yeah she knows yeah she she learned her lesson yeah yeah now I need to learn

53:32

my lesson yeah exactly now has to come full circle yeah it’s good it’s good so we gotta wrap up here but I feel like we

53:39

could go for another hour or so um but Mitchell people want to learn more about you or work with you where can they find you online yeah so um you can find me at

53:47

Mitchell Adler dcom it’s Mitchell with one L it’s all one word um so you you at

53:53

the beginning Mark said that um we were in a therapy group together I just want to correct that we were in a training process group together um and so I run

54:00

training process groups as well as psycho theapy groups if you’re in California I could see you for a

54:06

Psychotherapy group a therapy group but if you’re across the country and you’re a mental health professional I can see you for a training process Group which

54:12

is a different kind of Beast it’s a it’s not a therapy but it’s has therapeutic effect um yeah and I also do like um

54:19

organizational speaking and things like that so if people want to find me you can find me there great and all that stuff will be in the show notes for yall

54:25

listeners to click and learn more about Mitchell so thank you all for tuning in and we’ll see you next week another

54:31

episode of men’s therapy

54:36

podcast thank you for joining your host mark aile on the men’s therapy podcast

54:41

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