How Men Can Foster Safety w/ Bre Wolta

November 17, 2023

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Returning guest and friend of the podcast, Bre Wolta, returns to talk about how men can build safety in their relationships. As a coach that helps women get out of toxic relationships Bre has tons of examples of what NOT to do.

Episode Transcript:

Intro: [00:00:00] Mark Azulay is an industry leader in psychotherapy and men’s mental health. He’s helped countless guys get back on their feet, deepen their relationships, and excel in their lives. Now he’s taken all that he has learned and is sharing it with you. In each episode, Mark will interview an expert in the field of masculinity and men’s work.

We’ll cover topics such as emotional intelligence, masculine identity. Anger management, financial health, trauma, recovery, marriage, and divorce, ethics, and spirituality tune in and become a better man.

Mark: Welcome back to the men’s therapy podcast. I’m your host, Mark Azulay. And we’ve returning guests, Brie Walta.

Brie, I think you’ve been one of the most frequent guests. We were just chatting. I think you’re number four, um, time on the show.

Bre Wolta: I’m so happy to be here. I love having conversations with you.

Mark: Yeah. So, so he’s a great friend of mine. Um, she’s a relationship coach and specifically helps [00:01:00] women getting out of toxic relationships, whether they be, um, abusive or just shitty or neglectful.

Um, and she comes from that past herself and she’s here to help women. And during this podcast, men not fall into that, those kinds of pitfalls.

Bre Wolta: Yes. Yeah. Very passionate about helping women heal from things that have not felt good, especially if that’s all that they have experienced and don’t know that that’s not how it should be.

So helping them do the work to, to build up that self confidence and believe that they deserve a healthy relationship and be able to attract in a healthy man is important.

Mark: Yeah, I think it’s really important, right? Especially like you said, of women that have been stuck in that and they think like, that’s what love is or that’s what that’s what men are, you know,

Bre Wolta: yeah, yes, very.

Huge misunderstanding of what men are and what they can be when you’re when you have experienced only men who are emotionally unavailable or immature or [00:02:00] manipulative or narcissistic or whatever the experience has been, it has really clouded your ability to believe that anything better. Is out there.

Mark: Yeah. So for this episode, we decided to focus on kind of the healthy positive side of the equation. Um, if you want to learn about toxic relationships, you can check out all of our stuff online on instagram. You can look at our previous episodes. But for this 1, I want to talk a little bit about, you know, that, that healthy masculinity, right?

Like how a male partner, we’re going to talk, I’d assume mostly using heteronormative. Uh, language, although of course, you know, this works for same sex couples as well. Um, but how could a healthy partner build safety in a relationship?

Bre Wolta: I think it’s really important for both, both people to be on board with, you know, taking the steps in order to do that.

One thing that happens in toxic relationships is an over responsibility typically from The woman most likely, um, in a heteronormative relationship where the [00:03:00] man is somehow manipulating her to believe that she needs to do more or is too much. And there’s like this over responsibility for. Doing therapy for the both of them and trying to fix the entire relationship and thinking everything is her fault.

So both people coming to the table with our intention is to make this the healthiest ecosystem that we can. And how can we both participate in that?

Mark: Yeah, I, I find it helpful when I work with couples to ask them, like, what they’re optimizing for, or like, kind of what they want the relationship to feel like maybe is a better way of looking for it.

Right? Like, we’re making decisions to make a peaceful household or making decisions to lay the foundation for children are making decisions to be a power couple and strive to be the best versions of each other. You know, do you want to really be adventurous all the time? Are we trying to, you know, cool.

Cool. Get the most pleasure as possible out of life, whatever it is, right? But I find really having that those shared couple values to be really helpful.

Bre Wolta: Yeah, [00:04:00] which also encourages you and it, it’s necessary for you as an individual to know what’s important for you too, so that you can bring that to the table, because there’s so many couples that just sort of end up together.

Like, it felt, it felt good somehow in the beginning. So they’re like, you know, deciding to continue, but they don’t really have a shared, you know, Shared values are shared vision or anything for it’s like, what are you doing? What do you, why are you spending all of your time with this person? If there’s not a reason behind that, other than just not being alone.

So it’s important to be able to feel secure and confident in yourself outside of a partner first, and then be able to say, yeah, this is important to me. Is this important to you and see where that compatibility is.

Mark: Yeah, so I’m curious with the women you work with, how do you start to instill that sense of values?

Because the assumption I’m making, and please correct me if I’m wrong, is that if they’ve been in a relationship where they’ve been gas lit, or they’ve been doing people pleasing, and [00:05:00] just kind of, they may have lost their sense of self. Oh, yeah. So they might not know what they want, or maybe they’re just defaulting to like, I don’t know, female oppression or like feminine, traditional feminine roles without really considering other alternatives.

Bre Wolta: Yeah, no, they, for the most part, don’t know who they are, what they want anymore. And as we start to get curious about that, I take them through an exercise where we identify their values, which in and of itself, they’re like, what’s a value? Like, I don’t know what’s, I usually just care about what’s important to somebody else and help them.

Feel good in their skin, you know, a lot of them are people, please. There’s a lot of them grew up in, in environments where they were taking care of others. So they are very externally focused on everybody else. So when I asked them, like, well, what’s important to you? Sometimes it takes a little bit of time and and inquiry around themselves to answer that question and being able to see, like, the values your values are the [00:06:00] biggest pieces of your life, right?

That’s the way we spend our time. It’s how we like to orient our life. So when you’re trying to bring in another person. I teach them a filter system of like, they have to, they have to align somewhat with your values first, instead of the wants. So if we go through the values and then the needs and then the wants of like, okay, we share some of the similar values.

We can, we can communicate about needs. He can meet my needs. I can meet his needs. And then he has some of the things that are like, you know, the, the nice job, or the nice car, or the can take me on trips, whatever, you know, whatever is not as important as the, the values and the needs category. So take helping them be able to visualize those things for themselves and also understand their non negotiables like their individual red flags are really important in addition to some of the glaring red flags of unhealthy relationships, um, [00:07:00] understanding if they want kids or not want kids, you know, it’s like just asking some of the tough questions that that maybe they haven’t thought about for themselves before.

Mark: Yeah, some of those like really big deal breaker questions, right? And crossroads questions. Yeah. For their male partner, what advice would you give them to help their partner come up with values or communicate or feel safe enough to communicate them? Right? Because I think, you know, there’s like that stereotypical thing, um, which is like, Hey, where you want to go for dinner?

And it’s like, I don’t know, wherever you want to go kind of thing. Um, but I think that extrapolates to a lot of things where I think in a relationship, it’s often very difficult because of, you know, You know, oppressive systems for sure. Right. For women to feel like they have a voice or even know, like I said, even know what their voice is.

Bre Wolta: Yeah, absolutely. I think the man approaching the conversation in a way that’s like, I really want to understand. What’s true for you and and trying as best they can to even just name, like, there’s not a right or wrong answer here, because I think [00:08:00] sometimes women, we say, I don’t know, whatever you want, because we’re scared of making the wrong decision and then you not liking us anymore and then leaving us and all of our abandonment shit comes up.

And it’s just a whole thing. So if you can, as the male partner, like, really invite her. Authenticity and her uniqueness as, you know, you being more you as the man being more curious about who she is, instead of is this right or wrong is helpful to just make it feel more comfortable.

Mark: Yeah, I think that’s really, that’s really apt.

You know, and when I speak to the men out there, I, I get curious about the way. Male relationships are evolving, right? Because I think historically it, there has been this power dynamic where oftentimes, you know, men of all generations will talk about their partners. There’s almost like their 2nd class citizens.

Like, they’re like a pet or they’re a sidekick or they’re a companion. They’re not like an equal. Person. Yeah, I think it’s interesting when I talk to men, because some guys like don’t want that. Great. A lot of [00:09:00] millennials. We were born with this idea that equal equality is the way to go. And some men still do want that.

So they actually feel threatened when there is any kind of discord in their relationship when the values don’t align because they’re used to it. Just being like, oh, yeah, you know, she just does whatever I say, you know, she’s just always there, always reliable.

Bre Wolta: Yeah, and that’s where the accountability comes in for the man to have done his work to understand why is it threatening if a woman has an opinion?

What does that mean about me? How do I receive that? Where did that come from? Like, both people are responsible for understanding their shit and then being able to communicate why this thing triggered me in this way and what you need from there. Yeah. So if the man is doing that and the woman is doing that, you can have much more, you can have less emotion filled conversations because it’s just like, this is the story that I made up in my head because of my past about whatever happened.

Can we talk about it instead [00:10:00] of you’re doing this and you’re like all of the blaming type of language that can happen when people don’t aren’t taking accountability for their part, how we have more. Impactful conversations where we actually are coming to it from a place of respect is being self regulated and having taken the time to regulate.

If you’re getting triggered about something before you’re trying to communicate about it.

Mark: Yeah, being able to talk with it in like a calm, you know, peace tone, right? And like, having love be the foundation instead of it being like a giant explosion or something, you know, and I guess that’s what I would say to people.

I’m curious your thoughts on this of like. We’ll probably talk about honesty, transparency a lot in this 1st example of, you know, as a man or a woman or anyone in a relationship, like, you want to know your partner. I mean, I’d imagine if only if only to avoid a blow up later, right? Of like, you know, there’s been this secret for 20 [00:11:00] years that, you know, He doesn’t like this or she doesn’t like that.

Or, you know, she really hates the city that you decide to live in or whatever. Right. I’ve just seen that happen so many times where something gets repressed for forever and then detonates, you know, when the lives are really intertwined or when kids are in the picture or what have you. Um, yeah. Yeah. And the kind of side question I have for you, I don’t know what you’d say about this, but like, do you feel like people are afraid to know each other?

Like, is there like fear to actually know another person?

Bre Wolta: Potentially. I, because I think. If you aren’t aware of your driver, Like, what is your reason of being in the relationship? I think a lot of people, again, find somebody who is good enough and they sort of settle in order to not be alone. And the more that you actually get to know that person after you’re already invested and have spent years with them, perhaps it takes a lot more to leave that relationship.

And that’s a much bigger. Change in your life. If you decide like, oh, shit, we have [00:12:00] nothing in common. I don’t even like, I don’t really like this person. I wouldn’t hang out with this person. Um, you know, it, as opposed to doing that, when you’re starting out with somebody and really. Really, you know, exploring and setting that foundation of, do I want to continue to get to know you, but being really intentional in those beginning moments of who are you like deeply, who are you, and is that going to align with who I am and can we navigate life together or not?

Because two amazing people can come together and not be compatible. Right, so it’s not like one person is better than the other, or you’re not good enough because it didn’t work with this person. It’s just like. Two awesome people just happen to not be, be awesome together,

Mark: right? The puzzle pieces might not fit.

They might be both part of an awesome puzzle, but the pieces like just don’t fit together.

Bre Wolta: Yeah. But I think some people are afraid of what they’ll find [00:13:00] because also a lot of us, and I’ll speak about me and my past toxic relationship. It’s like, I had that, that inkling, that knowing that. Something wasn’t right and this wasn’t the way it was supposed to be, but in order to actually look at that meant that then I had to take accountability to change it.

And that, again, was too, it was too much. It was like flooded me with fear, really not wanting to be alone, not wanting to start over all of the things that come after that decision is made.

Mark: Right, yeah, I mean, it just creates this whole trickle down effect, right? Because it’s like, if my relationship is actually this bad, then I have to do something about it.

But if I’m not doing something about it, then it was, I mean, about me, am I a coward? Am I weak? Am I afraid? Am I whatever, right? Like, am I being controlled? It creates this kind of like hornet’s nest, right?

Bre Wolta: Yeah, we just stick our head in the sand and hope that, hope that it’s going to change. It’s like, it’s so ridiculous when you [00:14:00] say it out loud that way, but it’s like, if I don’t look at it, it doesn’t exist.

And it’s like, yes, it does. It very much exists. And it’s very much affecting your whole life and your mental health. So like, yes, it’s scary to look at it. And for your long run fulfillment, that’s something that you should most likely do.

Mark: Got to figure it out. Yeah, this is this is a question that comes to mind.

It’s kind of like a long shot. Um, how would a partner, a male partner and heteronormative, like, be aware that our relationship isn’t working for their partner. Right, because I, because I wonder if there’s like, part of the masculine initiative role to be like, hey, you don’t seem happy in our relationship.

Like, can you tell me more about it or something like that? What’s some signs they might want to look up?

Bre Wolta: Yeah, I think, um. Gosh, that’s a good question. The pulling away. Like the sort of disinterest in doing things together or disinterest in if you used to have like [00:15:00] one night a week where you sat down and actually ate dinner at the table, and that’s no longer feeling like something that she wants to do, or she’s spending more time with her friends, you know, and not that being with your friends is bad, but if it’s an abnormal ratio of time, um, I think just, you know, Drastic changes in behavior, but the 1st thing I thought of when you said that was like, like coming to her directly or having the, having set the foundation in the 1st place to say.

This is an agreement that we have that if 1 of us isn’t feeling good anymore, that we’re responsible to bring that. Conversation to the table, because really, it’s not his role to, to try to, like, pull it out of her, but I can see how. If he, if he’s concerned, but doesn’t know how to like bring it up, that’s a tough, a tough entry of a conversation.

Mark: Yeah. If they notice like some of these big changes, you know, to try to [00:16:00] name them, I would say that to the guys too, it’s like, or stick with the facts, right? Just being like, Hey, I noticed we used to have dinner once a week in person and now we’re not, or, Hey, I noticed that like, you’re not laughing as much, you know, when we go out or, you know, those dog walks just feel really tense.

You know, and then without interpreting, just be like, and what do you think about that? Right? Like, without putting our opinion on it, just like, throw it out there and see if there’s anything there.

Bre Wolta: One of the tools that I use all the time with my partner and I teach my clients is, is just naming the story in your head.

Like, the story that I’m making up right now is that. You’re withdrawing by not wanting to have dinner with me on Wednesdays, and I’m making up the story that that means that you’re kind of checking out of the relationship. Is that true? And asking, right? Like, when you share something from that lens of this is true for me, and this is my fear and my vulnerability, it often opens the space better for a conversation as opposed to why don’t you want to have dinner with me [00:17:00] anymore?

Are you leaving me? That’s not, that’s going to put her on the defense and vice versa.

Mark: Are

Bre Wolta: you cheating on me? Right. It just, it can go down a hole, like rabbit hole that isn’t productive.

Mark: Yeah. Which I think is really good to name because You know, it’s a lot of men. I think we project confidence, but we are just as if not in some ways more so vulnerable and afraid in relationship because men in general have significant less relationship experience than men than women, right?

Like we have less partners, less sexual experience, less everything, less education. So it often comes out. Sideways, like, let me see your phone or like, who is he? Or I saw the way you looked at Stan from work, like, you know, it just comes out really clumsily.

Bre Wolta: Yeah. And I can tell you from the woman’s point of view, when my partner comes to me with a story that he’s making up, I have so much respect for him for being able to vocalize that because vulnerability for men is really tough.

I mean, it’s tough for everybody, but specifically with how men are socialized, like, It’s really [00:18:00] hard to say that. So for the woman to, to hear what you’re saying is it’s important in the delivery.

Mark: Yeah, and to really, like, validate and be like, yes, you’re doing it right. Like, we’re, we’re doing the conversation.

Um, so, yeah, we’re going to move to our 1st commercial break. When we come back, we’ll talk a little bit more. I’m interested in how, um, a man can be in a relationship with, like, a recovering person that just got out of a toxic relationship, what they might want to look out for, what not to take personally, um, and how they might help aid in someone’s healing, you know, kind of being on that other side of being that other attachment figure.

very much. Um, so if you’re listening and you might find yourself in that situation, hold on in there and we’ll see on the other side of the commercial break.

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Intro: You are listening to the Men’s Therapy Podcast with Mark Ale. To reach the show today, please call 1-888-346-NINE 1 4 1. That’s 1 888 346 9141 or send an email to podcasts at menstherapy. online or visit www. menstherapypodcast. com. Now, back to the Men’s Therapy Podcast.

Mark: Welcome back to the show. I’m your host, Mark Azuleta. I’m here with Brie Wolta, and we’re talking about recovering from toxic relationships. So the question I posed to you at the end of the last segment was, how can a partner help somebody who has been in a toxic relationship? Um, and I’ll give you a little bit more color.

You know, I’ve certainly dated women where that’s been the case, and it’s been overwhelming for me, honestly, right? Where there’s a lot of like storytelling, there’s a lot of trauma. I find myself being really [00:22:00] defensive and being like, not me, not all men. Like, I’m not that asshole, right? Or like, just And I felt like in some cases, it’s really, um, I don’t put all the blame on on that, but it certainly has been a major obstacle in us going further in relationship because I feel like the person could be stuck in the past or stuck in that trauma.

And I’m not, I don’t know how to navigate that or sit with that. So, yeah, I’m curious, like, what’s what’s step 2, right? How do you, how do you move on once you’ve gotten out

Bre Wolta: prior to the man being involved? The woman needs to take responsibility to do the trauma work around that. And often we’re not ready for relationships until we’ve more integrated that experience.

So if you are just meeting someone who like is just out of 15 years of being gaslit, she might need to do some healing first. Um, because I think we, or I know we can heal in relationship, but we first have to have that foundation, um, and really understand the trauma and not be re triggered or re [00:23:00] traumatized by every little thing.

So that’s just the disclaimer of like, What I hope this conversation can be is if a man is, you know, in a relationship with somebody who has integrated her experience, but still, still is a little bit like trepidatious around the experience of being in a committed relationship because she’s been betrayed or lied to or gaslit or something, but has enough self awareness to know that that’s a trauma response to.

You know, this current partner is not that partner. She has enough awareness of that. And how can the man support her in just this continual healing process? So one of the most important things is to believe her because especially if she’s been being, or if she has been manipulated or gas lit, her reality has been denied.

So typically the toxic partner we’ll call him. Will be telling her that her feelings don’t matter. She’s being too emotional. [00:24:00] She’s being too dramatic She’s always causing problems. Like can’t you just stop bringing problems and then we’ll stop having problems like those types of Words I guess I’ve been given to her So for you as the healthy the new healthy partner really opening space to say I I believe your experience And I want to I want to understand it So if you’re feeling anxious about something, whether it’s about the relationship or about work, I want to hear like there’s space for you to take up space is really, really healing for somebody who’s been told over and over again that that they can’t or that it’s wrong or they’re causing conflict when they do that.

Mark: Yeah, I really want to dive into the concept of safety. With you, you know, 1 of the, the stats, I guess, anecdotes that I’ve heard is from John Gottman’s work. He’s a famous couples counselor, and he has a book called the man’s guide to women, which I’d recommend all your mail listeners. [00:25:00] Read it, it’s awesome.

It’s about how to attune and create safety. Anyway, he talks about, he runs these workshops with his wife and he asks, you know, the audience, he has to manifest like, hey, when’s the last time you were scared? And as men, we tell these awesome stories, right? We tell stories of like, doing mountaineering stuff or mountain biking or like.

I don’t know, sailing the seas or I don’t know, you know, like we’re getting in a bar fight. Right. But in all the, all of our fear stories were the hero. It’s always like, oh, yeah, I was scared, but then like, I did a cool thing and I wasn’t scared anymore. And I was like a boss. Right. Um, and then he asked the women to tell, like, when’s the last time you were scared?

And so many of them are like, you know, walking in the parking lot to this. Talk, you know, or getting in my car alone when the sun was down or driving and merging into an intersection that, like, I hadn’t been to before. And the long story short, right? The idea that, like, women carry a significant amount of fear, like, an amount of fear that I think, as men, we, like, literally cannot comprehend.

So I see you nodding a lot. So I’d be curious for your perspective to talk about that and to talk [00:26:00] about how a man can help. Um, and just to create a safe place, knowing that the fear levels are just, I mean, it’s really, it’s like 110 X, you know, it’s, it’s a totally different thing.

Bre Wolta: Yeah, yeah. To your point about like walking to your car or you maybe being at home alone.

Right. And just having that thought of like, well, what if someone broke in, like, what would I do? You know, there’s just so many ways that women are still more powerless than men are in so many different situations. So yes, to that point of like the man, just being aware that we’re holding a lot of different fears, a lot of different responsibilities and things that are always in the back of our mind.

And. The way that I’ve felt safe in my relationship now is really being able to communicate. So again, that really being able to have, it’s an open floor for anything that either one of us need to bring to the table and need to be heard or need to be witnessed and, or need to be, you know, helped through.[00:27:00]

But sometimes when I bring things to my partner, I just want him to, to hold me and tell me that I’m okay. You know, I don’t want him to solve it. I don’t want. I don’t want the solution. I just, just like, just tell me I’m going to, I’m safe and then it’s going to be okay. So, I think that’s an important point for men because typically the tendency is, okay, I can fix it or let’s problem solve.

And that’s not always what she wants. So, even to directly say. Are you sharing this with me for hopes of a solution or just to be heard and just naming it like we do that all the time. That’s not something that you get better. I mean, maybe you get a little better at mind reading. Um, but for you guys to name that out loud is so helpful because if she starts to share something vulnerable and you start to problem solve, she’s going to shut down.

It’s not going to feel safe.

Mark: Yeah, that that’s a silver bullet question, right? Like, do you tell me to listen or are we trying to go to first solutions right here? Um, and I think also for men, [00:28:00] right? Like, again, this is a weirdly taboo opinion in 2013, but the, the, the idea that like men and women are different and we have different needs, different psychologies and different makeup.

So when I talked to a lot of guys, they judge women because they think that they should be men. Right. So for instance, like as a man, I might never need to be held and be told everything is okay. Right. Maybe on some level I do, but I’m not asking for that regularly. Yeah. But I think to our male listeners, it’s like your female partner is like, they need that.

And it doesn’t mean that they’re like less than you or weaker or whatever. Right. It’s just, it’s just different psychology. Um, so I think a lot of men like get defensive where they go solution a, because we think that our partners are also men. And I mean, it’s just it’s a totally different creature in a lot of ways.

Bre Wolta: Yeah, and I think sometimes because women are more emotionally, um, attuned and driven in different ways. We share more about our emotions [00:29:00] and that can be threatening to a man if he doesn’t understand his own emotions. So for the man to really do the therapy work or the coaching around, you know, what are my emotions and how can I expand my capacity to sit in my own anger or sadness or, you know, Longing or whatever, whatever it feels like they don’t want to touch, because if you can’t touch that within yourself, you can’t hold space for somebody while they’re experiencing it.

It’s too, it’s too foreign and threatening.

Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. And I know a lot of guys that I work with have that fear of like, if I open up the emotional box, I’m going to fall in and I’m going to drown. You know, so when they see an emotional woman, they’re like, Oh, my God, I don’t want to drown with her. I don’t want to pull me down into this, you know, another thing.

And I want to hear your opinions on this, of course, as well as like, I think women use emotions to connect right in a way that men don’t really like we connect over challenges and missions and accomplishments and the whole kind of like, you know, check it off the box [00:30:00] dopamine thing. Whereas like women, when you all cry together, you know, That’s like the best shit you can have, right?

I mean, that’s like, that’s the same as like the two, you know, two men doing like a motorcycle trip across the country or something, right?

Bre Wolta: Right, right. I don’t

Mark: think a lot of men get that. Like, I think it’s a problem to be solved, not an experience to be shared.

Bre Wolta: Yeah, and women also have, you know, the label of like, we’re so emotional and then she must be on her period.

Like, please don’t ever say that to a woman ever because 1st of all, having emotions is valid. And yes, there might be times when our emotions are heightened for whatever reason, but if you ever use that phrase, she’s immediately going to going to see you’re not safe. And so making space as best you’re able.

To hold her in her experience to validate her experience and not try to, or not think that it’s yours to make her. Okay. That’s another thing where I think sometimes when women are really. Emotional are really [00:31:00] upset along the lines of fixing it. The man is like, oh, I have to make her. Okay. Or else I’m not.

Okay. And so you, as an individual need to have the separation of like. This is her experience. I can support her. And this doesn’t mean that I’m not. Okay. But that’s where codependency work comes in too, of recognizing what’s yours and what’s hers. Supporting her in the best way for her to be able to, to comfort herself while being comforted by you, but it’s not your role.

It’s not your job to fix her.

Mark: Yeah, and it’s not a reflection on you, you know, I mean, the phrase that I share a lot is like, so men, right? Like, we, the biggest thing that we can be called is being a coward, right? The most painful thing is being called a coward and not feeling that we’re brave that we didn’t step up or that we didn’t do the thing or whatever.

Right? Um, for women, that word is crazy. Right. Right. Like women do not want to be called crazy and they don’t want to feel crazy. And they don’t want to be told that like their experience is like insane [00:32:00] or unhinged or whatever. Right. Yes. Um, so I think that that’s the thing, right. Is, is as men, we can validate the experience and mirror like, yeah, you’re not crazy, like this makes sense.

Like I totally get why you would feel this way without even really agreeing with it. Right. Like we can be like, yeah, I don’t feel this way, but I can see how you can feel this way. And that does take like some like emotional skill. Um, to be able to make that, draw that line, you know,

Bre Wolta: And having empathy, even if it’s something that, that you would never feel.

It’s like, oh, I can empathize with her on how that would feel to feel that feeling. Instead of like, please stop feeling that feeling like you’re being crazy and in other crazy experiences that can happen. Like if she, if she, if you leave, say for the weekend or something, and she starts to have anxiety about.

You, where you’re going, who you’re actually with, maybe she’s texting you a little bit too much or calling because she’s can’t manage her own anxious [00:33:00] attachment that’s happening, like allowing space to name what’s happening and say, like, be curious about that with her instead of calling her a crazy bitch or like pushing her farther away, which is just creating a bigger wound.

It’s like, Hey, I recognize that. There might be some anxiety happening right now. Like, should we talk about, or can we talk about something? Or do you want to tell me what you’re feeling? Those types of openers are more helpful than, than sort of the knee jerk, like, throw my phone and I’ll just ignore her for 5 hours.

And like, yes, she’s responsible. She’s responsible for self regulating. But again, you can help support that process. And, and, um, In opening the space or saying, like, I’m really busy at this moment, but I want to talk about this with you. I love you. Whatever, you know, just to give her something.

Mark: Yeah, it’s offering some, some reassurance.

Bre Wolta: Yeah.

Mark: You know, and I think what you’re talking about is a great skill [00:34:00] for guys to practice. And, you know, again, I see this as a very masculine skill because it’s like penetrative in nature. It’s the idea of like. Actually cutting through the story and getting to the emotion, right? Because oftentimes our partners, they’re telling a story, but really, they’re externally processing, right?

They’re kind of like throwing the cards on the table. And it says, Hey, like, how do I feel about this? How do you feel about this? Like, what’s happening in the situation? And if we can just like, kind of cut through the noise and get to like, Whoa, you sound really anxious right now. Like in the example that you brought up, right?

Or while you sound really sad right now, or maybe you’re grieving, maybe you’re missing so and so in your life, or you sound really angry. Yeah. That is really connective with women because you’re, you’re naming the deeper level, which is really what they’re expressing to you. They’re not really, the, the, the story is, is secondary, right?

It’s a, it’s a vehicle for the emotional connection.

Bre Wolta: Well, and it shows you’re listening, which is also

Mark: also relevant

Bre Wolta: because I think women also are more, um, you know, we’re more comfortable processing our emotions, uh, externally or [00:35:00] with another person. So we like to talk and we like to talk about how we’re feeling and sometimes men too now, or they get pissed off and they try to cut it off.

But if you’re asking. And like a, um. An active listening question. It’s like, oh, shit, he’s paying attention to me. I must matter to him. And it, it creates more trust and more of a bond. Absolutely.

Mark: Yeah, that do not just like the background music that you have to like, tune, tune down. Right. That there actually is investment and interest there.

Bre Wolta: Yeah, and if you guys have the common language, I’ll share an example. My partner and I, he knows I do a lot of inner child work with my clients and I do a lot of inner child work with myself. And so sometimes I’ll use the verbiage like my little girl is scared. My little girl is upset, whatever. And so sometimes when he recognizes me.

Being a little quieter or a little more like less engaged in our conversation or something is like, does your little girl need something right now? And typically when he [00:36:00] says that I start crying because it’s just that I wasn’t able to access the words yet, but for him to create the invitation to talk about it.

Instead of me saying or feeling potentially like, Oh, I have to bring another feeling to the table. It’s helpful for men if you’re just attuned that way.

Mark: Yeah, I think it’s really helpful. And it’s yeah, and this creating safety and saying like, Hey, I am here. I’m ready. I’m open for whatever comes out right for whatever you’re feeling for whatever you’re thinking, um, for whatever is going on because, you know, like you were saying briefs like I care about you and I love you.

And this is important to me, you know,

Bre Wolta: Yeah. And having that be, again, the baseline of the relationship is respect. So whether we’re having a fun conversation or a hard conversation, it’s going to feel respectful in, in that. I want to hear what you have to say and, and vice versa, and being dependable with that always, like, not just sometimes you want to hear what [00:37:00] I have to say, but all the time, it’s a safe place to come with what I have to say.

Mark: Yeah. And I think like, as men. You know, we typically without, you know, therapy, worker, emotional training or whatever, like we’re pretty blind and numb to a lot of emotional subtlety, but it doesn’t mean that we’re like completely cut off, which means if you’re feeling anything, your partner is probably feeling it times a thousand.

And if she’s not saying something, you should probably say something, right? If there’s any kind of tension or weirdness, like it’s real and your partner is in it. So name it, you know,

Bre Wolta: yeah, it’s so powerful to just name what’s happening. Like I’m feeling tension in the space is, is something wrong. Are you okay?

Can we talk about something, you know, instead of both people just pretending like it’s not there.

Mark: Right. Just head in the sand, just, you know, waddling around. Um, so I don’t know. Uh, we’re gonna move to our next final commercial [00:38:00] break. Um, when we come back, we’ll talk about some more tips and tricks and strategies for opening up communication and building safety.

Um, and also some of the idea of like where it can go, right? Like, like what’s the reason why we want to do all this stuff. What’s the hope. So thanks for tuning in and we’ll see you on the other side.

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Intro: You are listening to the Men’s Therapy Podcast with Mark Azulay. To reach the show today, please call 1 888 346 9141. That’s 1 888 346 [00:41:00] 9141. Or send an email to podcasts at menstherapy. online or visit www. menstherapypodcast. com. Now back to the men’s therapy podcast.

Mark: Welcome back to the show. I’m your host, Mark Azulay. And I’m here with Bri Walta and we’re talking about how men can help their partners feel safe in a relationship. Um, so one thing we were chatting about over the commercial break is, okay, so say you’ve been dating the person for a while and then like the day comes, right?

The day where your partner tells you the story, you know, like the big reveal, hey, I’ve been attached to your relationship, or my past partner was abusive, or you hit me, or God forbid he raped me or something, right? Like the big, the big reveal happens, um, as a, as a man, how can we hold that and, and receive that?

Bre Wolta: Yeah, it’s, first of all, I want to name that it’s really hard. To hear that your partner went through something really scary or horrific or undeserving [00:42:00] and for you to try to maintain, again, that safe space and not be the one who needs taken care of. So if I share with you that I was abused and you have a huge emotional reaction, and now, now the focus turns to making sure that you’re okay.

It’s defeating the purpose of trying to share her vulnerability. So, as best you can in that moment, just honestly, being quiet and just allowing her to speak and share what she wants to share and. Not saying things like, how could you let that happen for sure don’t say that or I can’t believe this asshole or, you know, anything that feels escalating because also bringing this up to you is probably already activating her nervous system and so for you to hold that calm regulated space will allow her to feel safe doing the quote unquote unsafe [00:43:00] thing.

And then just validating like that is horrible. I’m so sorry that you experienced that. And thank you for sharing with me, like those types of words are very soothing and again, validating that this is a safe person to, to tell this story to. And if after this conversation, you need to process your anger around her ex or whatever is coming up for you, not making her have to hold that space for you because.

She’s holding enough space for herself around that experience.

Mark: Yeah, I think that’s, that’s really critical, right? It’s like being that rock, being that safe place that she can crash against, right. And like have whatever experience that she’s having. And hopefully, you know, if you’re a guy doing this work, you have your therapist or you have your manager group, or you have something where you can go and work out some of that.

Um, I think it’s also important. This is like a, just a women tip in general, right. Is [00:44:00] that. Oftentimes, as because they are externally processing, they may save stuff from a place of emotion that they don’t actually mean. So, for instance, I could see a situation where that partner is saying, like, all men do X, Y, and Z, right?

Or, oh, typical man stuff or like, oh, what a chauvinist pig or like, those words and as a man, we want to get defensive and be like, oh, but not me or like, not all men or, you know, now we’re, we’re feeling attacked. And I think the important thing is, especially during big reveals and emotional moments, like the words aren’t literal.

They’re just kind of a vehicle for her hurt and her pain and her rage and her fear. Um, so you don’t try to like debate the words, right? Like just, just hold the story and hold the emotion.

Bre Wolta: Right. And the best way for you to change her mind, like if that’s something that she actually believes is by you showing up differently than all of the other men and the way that you show up, you show up and your actions speak louder than you saying, I’m not like that.

Because she’s probably heard that before and probably been fucked [00:45:00] around or betrayed or, you know, taken advantage of by men who said they were safe, but didn’t act like they were safe. So, if you want to show her what a true man is, and a man who’s balanced in his masculine and feminine and can hold safe space and understands his emotions and can communicate with her, Then do that.

Do that. And she will change her mind about all men.

Mark: Totally. Right. Yeah. Like be, be the exception, you know, and then I’ll bring you two closer together. You know, you, you know, you asked me over the break, like, what do the men I work with, you know, what are their issues, um, around this types of things? And this is again, tough question to answer, but I’m curious your thoughts on.

We talked about codependency before. I think a lot of the guys that that I work with are often kind of the nice guys that are very sympathetic and empathetic, but almost too much, and they get into this thing of, like, how much of this is how much of her trauma is my trauma? How [00:46:00] responsible am I for her healing?

Um, where, where is that spectrum? And how does that line play out? Um, and oftentimes they’re important. Honestly, replacing their own needs, you know, with people that are in relationship with someone’s been sexually abused. They often like, don’t feel sexually confident because they’re like, oh, I don’t want to, like, make her afraid or repeat the same thing or be that predator or whatever.

Right? Like, I think it once the once the news comes out, the status quo has changed. And I think a lot of, you know, everyone, men, women, everyone, it’s like, it’s hard to navigate moving forward after that. Sounds like, I think, four questions in one. So you take it, take it, run with whatever stands out, uh, for you.

Bre Wolta: that, in that case, let’s, let’s use the, if she was sexually abused as the example, there being so much communication then around what feels safe sexually. And just name, again, naming everything, naming like. I know you have a history. I don’t want to retrigger you in ways like what, what feels good to you, what doesn’t, what’s [00:47:00] okay, and what’s absolutely not okay.

And having those conversations while you’re not in the bedroom is preferred, um, so that you all, you both know that you’re on the same page and, and her knowing, and you guys have verbally saying, if you feel uncomfortable and you say, stop, I will stop. Or if you say tomato or whatever, you know, whatever, like you can make it a different word, a safe word, um, and, and if she says that you following through, right?

And then stopping immediately and, and, and comforting her in whatever way feels good. Um, but again, the follow through with those types of things is really important, not saying that you’re the safe person. And then when she tells you to stop doing something, you don’t stop. Um, but naming it, naming it so that you.

Know how to interact with her. She knows that you’re trying to interact with her in some sort of way around a triggering thing. And not leaving it to the mind reading and the passive aggressive, [00:48:00] like, well, I’m not going to touch you because. I’m making up the story that you don’t want to be touched, but really, she does want to be touched.

She just doesn’t want to be touched this way or something.

Mark: Yeah, I think that’s really good. And it goes back to that matching the value of courage. Right? Again, I think it’s, it’s, it’s. Mark of a good man or evolved man to, like, open the conversation. Right and open it with 0 expectations, right? Like, you’re not trying to move in a certain way.

You’re not trying to, like, get her to get do something that you wanted to do. Right? Like, you’re just naming the thing that’s in the room and you’re and you’re facing that demon together. And with your eyes open, I think that will always make your woman more attracted to you. You know, because it’s like, Oh yeah, wow.

He is brave enough to say this thing. Like she knows it sucks. You know, it sucks. Right. But like someone’s got to pull the trigger. Um,

Bre Wolta: yeah,

Mark: I think it has to be us. I think,

Bre Wolta: yeah, it’s so interesting to me that like women will conform their bodies into, into what they think men want, right. And be the type of woman that they think a [00:49:00] man wants.

And typically that’s not what men want and same with men, like men will be, will think they need to be this very machismo, like, I don’t know, strong, muscular person who like can fight away the bad guys or whatever. And like, really, a woman wants a man who can communicate with her and be truthful and honest, and so, and understands his feelings.

So, the more that we can start these conversations with the opposite sex of like, you know, what do you actually need? What do you actually want? We can start to see all, like, this fantasy world that we’re both living in. Hoping that it’s going to be good enough for the other person, and it’s like, not even what they want.

So, can we just get on the same page and to your point about initiating conversations, because especially in relationships. Where she’s been manipulated or gaslit, he never brought problems to the table unless they were her being the problem, but he was never like. [00:50:00] Hey, I’m, I’m feeling upset about this thing that you did last week.

Can we talk about it? Or he was never like, I’m feeling really vulnerable and upset with something that happened at work. Like I need, can you hold space for me? Like that was not ever said. So having a man who can bring those things to the table so that she doesn’t feel like she’s the only one putting in emotion and feeling into the relationship is also something that we want.

And I’ll speak in general terms of what women want.

Mark: Yeah, I think it creates a ton of safety and it’s the role of disclosure. Right? Like, I think as a man, it’s equally important for us to do our own work, our own therapy work, understand our triggers and our conditioning and traumas and whatever, and bringing that to our partner.

So if you could say like, Hey, you know, I got really upset at you for doing X, Y, and Z, and it’s because it triggered my mom’s stuff. Right. That’s the way that she doesn’t have to take it personally. Right. And then now you’re having a supportive conversation instead of her [00:51:00] being stuck in her head, thinking that she needs to change or she did something wrong or whatever.

Right? Like us owning our stuff is really critical, right? Or like, Oh, yeah. Hey, you know, I actually lied to you last weekend about X, Y, and Z. And that’s because, you know, when I get afraid, I lie. And I don’t like that about myself. It’s something I’ve worked on, but every once in a while, it comes out, you know, something like that is fucking goldmine.

I mean, that’s just, it’s hard to do, but it is very powerful to do.

Bre Wolta: Yeah. We, my partner and I have an understanding that if we Are in some sort of mood or funk or something and we come into the room with the other person like say we’re coming home from work and one person is upset about something we name immediately.

Like I’m I need some space. I’m upset. I’m not upset with you and just like so that there’s no confusion. There’s no me or him second guessing. If we did something, it’s just like, I’m in a shit mood and I need a minute and I love you. I’m going to go upstairs and Tend to myself for a second, but [00:52:00] so that you don’t start all the spirals.

I think, again, the communication is like the key ingredient to a healthy relationship, otherwise we’re both living in our own stories, making up about what is happening.

Mark: Yeah, you’re like living in that place of delusion. Um, so we’re coming towards the end here. I’m curious. Are there any, we’ve run through a lot of good prompts, but I’m curious if there’s any, like, 1 prompt or something that you could give to start a conversation in a relationship.

What would you give our listeners to take away that they can do? Like, right after they listen to this.

Bre Wolta: The story I’m making up that’s to me is the easiest opener to any type of hard conversation you need to have, because that’s the hardest part. A lot of the time. It’s like, how do I say this to them? How do I bring it up?

But because when you say the story, I’m making up, it doesn’t mean that you’re delusional. It just means that this is the true story in your head, based on your understanding and your assumptions. And you’ve created this conclusion because as humans, we like conclusions to things to make sense of them. So [00:53:00] sharing what’s true for you.

And allow, and then asking, like, is this, is this true? Is this right? Do you feel the same way? Or just sharing it with her and being like, this is what I made up. And opening that conversation is such a nice ease into avoid the blaming that you did this, or you made me types of, um, ways that we tend to, we stuff things down far enough, like you said, and then just explode in these ways of that aren’t helpful.

Yeah.

Mark: That’s a great takeaway. So yeah, the story I’m making up is XYZ and checking it out. And like you said, sticking to those facts, like, here it is. Now what? Like, without any kind of interpretation or blaming. Um, so Bri, yeah, thank you for being on the show. It’s always a pleasure. Conversation goes by super fast.

Where can people learn more about you? Or can they find you online if they want to work with you?

Bre Wolta: Yeah, my website is Breewalta. com. I’m sure we’ll [00:54:00] have links in the, in the notes here. And then Instagram is where I’m most active, and that’s Lucid Living with Bree. Um, and I have a podcast now too. So I’m on all the podcast platforms, that’s Lucid Living with Bree as well.

Mark: Cool. Do you have any programs coming up or anything that you’re hoping to fill in the next couple months here in the new year?

Bre Wolta: I think I’m going to open another group in the spring. Uh, I run groups for up to four women at a time to heal, and we work for five months at a time. But I have individual coaching spots open right now, and that’s a three month program.

So if any men know any women who are looking to really do some deep dives into their healing and find themselves again, um, look me up.

Mark: Yeah, if you’re a guy, you’re listening to this and like, oh, yeah, my partner is doesn’t need this help. Bri is a great resource for that. Um, and it can make you feel a lot less alone and working with it and hopefully healing towards a better couple together.

So thank you all for tuning in. Um, if you like this. Show, give us a five star review on Apple. If we’re going [00:55:00] to build those up, share it with a guy or a woman or anyone who you feel can benefit from this conversation. And we’ll see you next week. Another episode of the men’s therapy podcast.

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