In a powerful and revealing episode of the Men’s Therapy Podcast, host Marc Azoulay sits down with George Simon. He is a renowned psychologist, author, and speaker best known for his bestselling book In Sheep’s Clothing. He has over three decades of experience in the field. Dr. Simon is delving into what he calls “the epidemic of character disturbance.” He particularly focusing on covert narcissism. It is a form of manipulation that’s deeply misunderstood yet increasingly visible in today’s society.
Reflecting on how the book came to be, Simon shares. “I was meeting with people… experiencing what we today call the gaslighting effect… but we didn’t even know it as a real thing back then.” That firsthand exposure to relational manipulation pushed him to uncover the covert behaviours. The ones that are hidden beneath a polished surface.
What makes covert narcissism so insidious? Simon explains that these individuals often appear charming, empathetic, and kind. It is only until the facade breaks. “They’re good impression managers,” he notes. “But underneath it all, they were very controlling, dominant, seeking, and underhanded.” Simon offers more than a diagnostic overview. He explores the intersection of personality, morality, and the culture that allows dysfunction to thrive.
Covert narcissists command attention with grandiosity. They often operate subtly, cloaked in humility or victimhood. This makes them harder to identify and even harder to confront. According to Simon, covert narcissism falls under the broader narcissism spectrum. It includes both grandiose and vulnerable types.
The covert type tends to be more manipulative behind the scenes and are often emotionally gaslighting others while maintaining a socially acceptable exterior. “They might seem caring or agreeable, but their primary goal is dominance and control. It means they want what they want without looking like the bad guy”, says Simon.
This aligns with what many experience in gaslighting in relationships. A partner makes the other feel “crazy” for questioning their actions. Covert narcissists thrive in these dynamics, undermining reality while appearing innocent.
Simon brings a compelling perspective to traditional psychological theory. He focuses on challenging the trauma-centric approach. “There’s trauma everywhere,” he says, “but it does a disservice to good people when we keep searching for trauma as the cause of bad behaviour.”
Instead, he focuses on character disturbance—a failure to develop a moral compass and a sense of personal responsibility. In today’s culture, the lines blur quickly. Assertiveness can easily cross into aggression, and dominance is often mistaken for confidence.
He describes character as the part of the personality that governs morality. “You can have a personality disorder and not be character disturbed… but many today are both.” This insight leads to a critical distinction between ego syntonic (where a person likes and endorses their behaviour) and ego dystonic (where a person is distressed by their behaviour). It is a concept essential in understanding whether someone can benefit from therapy.
Traditional psychotherapy for men often falls short because it assumes the client wants to change. This is especially the case with men with character disturbance. Simon argues that many therapeutic models were built for neurotic clients, not narcissistic ones. “We waste tremendous time and energy trying to get people who already see, to see,” he says.
Instead, what’s needed is what he calls benign confrontation. A loving but firm approach to helping someone see their harmful behaviour without excusing it. “It’s not the what, it’s the how,” he emphasizes. “You’ve got to lovingly call out what’s ugly… and do it in a way that builds trust.”
A recurring theme in the conversation is how modern society enables and even rewards covert narcissism. In a world of social media, many behaviours once considered morally questionable are now normalized. Such as self-promotion and hyper-individualism.
Simon warns that without accountability, even deeply flawed individuals can succeed. “They’re prospering very well, thank you very much,” he says. Dr. Simon points out how the erosion of standards fosters male loneliness. It also leads to spiritual hunger and emotional disconnection.
“People are spiritually hungry,” he observes. “They’ve done things a certain way for a long time… and it’s worked—until it doesn’t.” That hunger, he believes, is often what finally motivates men to seek change.
Simon offers a refreshing vision when asked what a healthy personality looks like. “The healthy ego knows its worth… and is in service to something bigger.” He emphasizes healthy masculinity not as power or dominance but as the courage to love, grow, and stand for integrity.
At its core, Simon’s message is one of hope and possibility. Change is difficult, but it’s possible. Understanding covert narcissism is a vital first step toward true emotional growth. Especially for men navigating the challenges of relationship struggles and personal development.
George Simon brings much-needed clarity to the often-misunderstood world of covert narcissism. His insights challenge conventional thinking. They offer a new path for men who want to move beyond emotional confusion and into a life of honesty, character, and connection. This episode serves as a powerful reminder that growth begins with self-awareness. And change comes from integrity, not image.
George Simon is a clinical psychologist. He has over 30 years of experience. He is the author of several influential books, including In Sheep’s Clothing and Character Disturbance. His work centres on understanding manipulative personalities. He guides individuals through the complex terrain of moral and emotional development.
Simons is known for his deep insight into covert narcissism and character dysfunction. He regularly speaks at conferences and offers professional consultations for therapists. His latest work, Essentials for the Journey, expands on the “Ten Commandments of Character”. It outlines a clear roadmap for personal transformation and spiritual growth.
In Sheep’s Clothing by George Simon
Character Disturbance by George Simon
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