Getting Unstuck w/ Dr. Matthew Zakreshi

Getting Unstuck w/ Dr. Matthew Zakreshi

March 6, 2024

As our understanding of neuroscience grows we are discovering that there are significant differences in how people perceive and process the world. This is called Neurodiversity and it covers things like Gifted, 2e, ADHD, Autism, and Dyslexia. Our guest, Dr. Matthew Zakreshi is an expert in this field and comes on the show to shed some light on this emerging field.

Episode Transcript:

welcome back to the show I’m your host Mark a and I’m here with Dr Matt zakreski and we’re talking about

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neurodiversity um how it shows up in men what the typology is and really how to

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um I guess work with it whether you’re neurodiverse or you have a family member or a child that’s neurodiverse um Dr

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Matt is an expert in the field so welcome to the show oh man I’m so excited to be here thanks for having me

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yeah I I love seeing what you do because I think you take really complicated topics right I mean you’re a sid you’re

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a clinical psychologist professional speaker and you make them accessible right and I think you make them fun in a

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lot of ways and I think that’s what’s needed right um especially our field is kind of coming down off the Ivory Tower

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and making our stuff actually usable cuz that that’s the goal right I mean the goal is to help people I mean there’s a

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lot of reasons I’m a side not a PhD but one of them is I’m a boots on the ground

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guy right like I like you know give me the therapy practice give me the kids

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who need me give me the men who need someone to talk to like I don’t want to talk about gosh if it works I want to

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talk about does it work and then how do we fit fix it right I I’m from New Jersey I’m aggressively pragmatic right

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if we do it great if we don’t do it what can we do instead yeah and it’s like we

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need as much of that as possible right especially in you know a little soap boxing or like I think especially in social media age where there’s a lot of

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bad info out there you know I mean if I see one more self-styled life coach who

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tells me I can cure my ADHD with magnesium pills I will throw my laptop in the lake and then then I’ll feel bad

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because I actually need my laptop but you know theoretically I would be empowered by that yeah there there’s a

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lot of snake oil right and there’s a lot of people that I think are like over Associated or are use the terms wrong right or so it’s it’s difficult to weed

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through the information um so we’re going to get to that in our show but I first want to start with you Dr Matt say a little about your story what got you

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into this um what was your experience so I I have a very sort of

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unique experience um you know I think like a lot of people who specialize in neurod Divergence the work is personal

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and professional so I was identified as gifted in second grade and ident and

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then diagnosed with ADHD in high school and frankly that explained a lot um that was like oh okay good good there was a

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reason that this was happening um but both of my parents were clinical

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psychologists and so I grew up in a house where mental health was front center of every detainable conversation

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right I always joke that I never got grounded I just got analyzed

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god that’s way worse that’s way worse no just just punish me just to like why

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would you be acting out in this way right now it’s like oh God that’s so much worse um

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and and it’s also I mean when I think about masculinity right I

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was so you know I mean growing up in a small town New Jersey I played sports that’s what we did right I mean I played

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hockey and and basketball in the winter baseball in the spring fris I went to

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the beach and surfed in the summer and I played soccer in the fall rinse wash repeat right and that was what I did and

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freshman year of high school I played soccer and I made friends with a guy on the team who was a theater kid and he

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was like yeah man you should do theater and I was like cool what’s that and he’s you know like theater acting dancing

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singing I’m like yeah no that’s I’m not good at any of those things and he told

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me something that you know has really sort of changed my life he’s like dude theaters always need guys uh and that’s true and so I you

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know and I you know on the day that auditions were for the play was also TR

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for the basketball team and you know I knew I if I shot for the basketball team I’d probably be the seventh or eighth

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guy you know like good enough to play a little bit not good enough to start and just looking forward it’s like am I

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going to play high school basketball if I’m not even good enough to start on the freshman team probably not right there’s

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there’s a surplus of chubby six- foot white dudes in New Jersey and like I was

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one of them um so I did musical theater and they accepted me into the show and I

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went home and my dad was like how would basketball tryouts go I’m like I actually sign up for the

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musical and Mark I’ll tell you like there one of those moments that you look back on you realize how significant it

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was MH my dad was like cool what do we need to do for that like if he had gone

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like cliche Sports parent I probably would have gone running back to basketball but my dad pivoted into that

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space and said awesome and really from that point like that was the first time

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I became aware of my masculinity because I started to deviate

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from what other people were doing right you know I can’t tell you how many people were like oh yeah so you theater

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so you’re gay right you’re a stereotype right yeah a huge stereotype and and it’s you know I’m a

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big energy guy I’m very loud and touchy Fey and like you know it’s the sort of

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thing like I am happy to note the fact that I I’m not gay right that’s not a you know that’s I’m not in that that

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club but it’s also like if you were to look at me if when I watch the recording of this i’ be like I could see how

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someone could think he’s gay he talks with hands he’s got a relatively high pitched voice right and it’s the sort of

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thing like but you don’t realize you’re not in the club until they kick you out of the club and oh man hold up so and of

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course it’s like if man if you guys knew what went be went on behind closed doors but that’s neither here nor there right

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I’m like you guys think I’m gay but I get to hang around with like dozens of very attrac attractive bendable women

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but no no you go wrestle the other sweaty dudes right like you’re where the girls are that have like personality and

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character and like yeah you know so like and all of those experiences make you a

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better therapist because like we were talking about before this job is all about connection right and I can I mean

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I’ve worked in Corporate America I’ve been a bartender I’ve traveled around

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I’ve done a million different jobs and so there are parts of me that are very traditionally masculine and there are

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parts of me that are less traditionally masculine more contemporary views of masculinity right but the idea is that

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you know you bring me basically any topic I can find a way to connect with you about

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it and and the more I talk to other dads really other men right is just that

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that’s really what we’re all looking for we’re looking for somebody to authentically connect with past the did

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you see the local sports team’s game last night and like I love sports I absolutely you know I’m still a little

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bit bummed that wake farest basketball lost last night but I’ll get over it you know but like guys I think are

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increasingly looking to talk about something that’s more than you know the

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sports team or the sort of cliche like take my wife please right yeah you know

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and but if you don’t have a space to to be that version of yourself then I think

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that energy sort of spins and Spins and Spins yeah absolutely I mean I I run a bunch of men groups and that’s the idea

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right I think guys are craving that I think it like I thought it was just our generation right the young younger

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millennial generation or stuff right but I think genx really needs it I think the Boom is starting to come around to it

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because I agree completely like that yeah what’s the sports team or what’s the next show on Netflix or whatever

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right like oh yeah I like bowed my lawn right like all that stuff is really unsatisfying and lonely right um so I’m

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wondering like what is your community of men you mentioned dads right but how did you try to find these more deeper

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conversations in your life well you we moved about two and a

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half years ago um and we live you know we live in a sort of very classic jersey

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suburb and we’re lucky the neighborhood’s turning over there’s a lot of young families and there’s this

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sort of like you do the guy head pop thing the you know the pop they like you know

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like all right cool you know and and it’s the sort of thing somebody’s got to take the first step

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you know we’re lucky enough we have a pool so when I see a family on the neighborhood I’m like you know swing by

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sometime like you know we’ll put some burgers on the grill we’ll put on some music the kids can jump in the pool and

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we can have a cold beer or you know do whatever and you’ve gota you’ve got to give the opportunity

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you’ve got to give the space you know I you know one of the things I often think about is like if you have privilege it

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makes sense to build a bigger table than a higher fence right right and I’m very

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comfortable around people I’m an extrovert I we’re lucky enough to have a pool I mean why would I not lever those

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things to make more people but you know men included comfortable you know and

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it’s amazing how much people you know it’s it’s the I’m sure you see this in group The the shoulder

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drop like guys come in and they’re like sort of like at attention and then like

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you know then they sort of like they drop the shoulders you can see them relaxing you know usually a beverage

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might help if that’s your thing right but then it’s just like okay you know what like I’ve established myself as a

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person who at least has created a place where you can feel comfortable right on

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let’s explore that further right and you know and everybody acclimates to that at

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different rates but you know it’s it’s nice to have a place you can return to

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where that’s a thing you can do yeah yeah I think that’s really true and I think yeah I like that add attention

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thing right because I think a lot of men were were scared I think we’re competing with all other men all the time right

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we’re like posturing we’re trying to jockey for the hierarchies right trying to be like oh yeah I’m the alpha guy right like I’m the strongest I’m the

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tallest I you know whatever um I I want to bring us to neurodiversity right like I’m curious how that plays into it

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because I know that like social skills and social perception right are different for neurodiverse individuals

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oh absolutely and so there’s this concept of masking that’s very common

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neurodivergent Community it’s basically putting on a mask pretending that you do believe think feel like other people and

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masking is a social skill it’s sometimes you need to do it right your boss is talking to you and telling you some God

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awful story you’re like whatever you serve yeah it’s

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great and so masking is not inherently a bad thing but you’ve got to have places

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in your life where you can drop the mask where you can relax take a breath and I

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think increasingly people don’t have that right the world is non-stop it’s 360 and it’s hard for people to to know

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where they can sort of let their hair down a little bit and and

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also it’s so interesting because they it the data feel paradoxical on this but

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guys are much more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD they’re much more likely to be diagnosed

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with autism yeah and yet the rates of men who seek

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therapy are much lower so you’ve got a lot of people identified who are carrying around this burden who are then

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not getting the treatment necessary to regulate said burden right and I can’t

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tell you how many partners of people I see who are like I’m going to go to

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therapy until my partner can go to therapy right and like give me the tools to regulate my partner because my

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partner’s not ready for this yet and like listen that’s absolutely a part of what I do you know you can only meet

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people where they are but it’s a you know so I think a lot of guys might get that that label

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slapped on them but nobody really sits down and explains to you what that means and and so then you’re carrying

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around sort of some bad information some misinformation incomplete information

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you know like when I ask guys about ADHD they’re like oh that’s like the look over there it’s a squirrel thing right

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I’m like that’s part of it but like do you know that people with ADHD are significantly more likely to be hurt by

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rejection it’s called rejection sensitivity dysphoria right and it’s not

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just rection rejection that happens in real life but rejection that happens in your head like I can’t ask that woman

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out she going to say no to me yeah and then now you’re deep in your feels about a thing that hasn’t actually happened

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but that’s a piece of the ADHD brain you know or let’s say that you know you’re

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autistic and you and going to a like an open gym at the Y is a nightmare for you

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it’s loud it’s bright it’s squeaky it’s smelly right A lot of people are autistic have significant sensory needs

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how are you supposed to do that broy bro bro thing at the gym if that place is

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not a place you can go because I don’t know about you mark But if a guy came up and says hey do you want to work out

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with me in my basement I’d be like how well do I know right am I dying is this the last thing I’m going to

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do like can I put can I drop a pin let people know where I’m at like you know meet me you know so it’s the sort of

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thing like there have to be ways for neurodivergent men to to enter

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traditionally masculine spaces which are traditionally defined by the word for this is neurotypical right the you know

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people who have regular Brains Brains are largely within normal limits and that’s about 70% of the population so

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the world is built for 70% of people and the 30% of us on the outside of that are

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like cool where do I put my stuff down yeah I think that’s really really well

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said right especially when we talk about that male posturing if guys feel like they can’t hang I think they end up

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isolating you know and a lot of neurod Divergent individuals don’t get out right or they something’s wrong with

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them fundamentally right like they have a bad personality or they’re unlovable they’re never going to have luck with

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women or you know whatever right like I think they can fall into shame because it’s not normalized in a way um and I

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think as a man it’s difficult to get social skills training right I I think

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feminine spaces typically talk more about oh hey what should I say to so and so about this or help me you know

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brainstorm this difficult conversation with my partner right whereas as men we don’t really talk about that that much

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so I think it’s like if people feel behind the curve they might feel stuck there you know yeah absolutely and so if

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you’re stuck between those two those two worlds right what I’m supposed to do and what I want to do I mean that creates a

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lot of tension and the tension keeps us from connecting right and there’s a there’s a guy I work with who’s like you

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know and he’s a you know very sort of traditionally masculine guy and he was

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you know he’s like he’s like I you know like people could tell me got do yoga I got to do yoga Cal because I’m angry and

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I want to calm down and so I let him rant for a while and I’m like Hey listen do you want to do yoga and he’s like no

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I hate yoga and I’m like here crazy idea went to five years of grad school for this then don’t do yoga W do something

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to calm down I’m like yes you do I this I was like you you like to hike right and he’s like yeah I like to hike I was

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like what if you put on some chill music and went for a hike and he was like can

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am I allowed to do that yeah and isn’t that what masculinity 2024 is all about

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am I allowed to do this yes yes you are if it works for you and it doesn’t hurt

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anybody else then put your own spin on it and I’m telling you I’ve never seen a guy release his rage faster than this

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guy and it was you know one of the best interventions I’ve ever done and I didn’t do anything well well you gave

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him permission right like I think as another man and a man in authority figure right you gave him permission to

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bring break out of that manbox a little bit right cuz that manbox is really tight for a lot of you guys especially

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neurodiverse individuals um we’re going to move to our first commercial break and we get back I want to dig into other

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ways that people are stuck um whether they’re neurodiverse or they’re men or or anything um and some of the things

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that you can do to help shift out of that um so if you’re listening hang on in there and we’ll see you on the other side all

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right great job all

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C

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welcome back to the show I’m here with Dr Matt he is a expert in neurodiversity um both from professionally and

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personally um and we were having a great conversation about masculinity and how guys can get stuck in this man box

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especially nor divers individuals where they can’t connect they can’t show up in kind of traditional masculine spaces and

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they end up isolating um so Dr Matt I guess my question for you to start off the segment is what are other ways that

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that people get stuck you know what do what do the prisons look like oh there’s so many prisons um so

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many prisons so let’s break it into three different prisons right there’s the self

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prison right there’s the occupational prison and then there’s

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the social prison right so self- prison is who do I want to be right what is the

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best version of myself that exists and I think there’s I think

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there’s this piece of a lot of guys where they get very hung up on sort of

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the Glory Days like when was the point in my life where I felt that Alpha energy right and I think that’s actually

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it’s part of it’s one of the sneaky benefits of being neurod Divergent because like if the cliche is the

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neurotypical male peaks in high school you know a lot of neurod diversin people are white not going high school they’re

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like I just need to get to college I just need to get to college I just need to get out of here so it’s like it’s like well I don’t have a thing to look

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back on and say that was my Apex time my Apex time is still evolving I’m moving towards it you know I I love being a dad

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like I think you know I think these are my my best years most likely but it’s

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but that’s a thing that has constantly re-evolved so you know you don’t want to be that

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Uncle Rico if we’re going to make a Napoleon Dynamite reference you know because yeah because all my pop culture

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references stopped somewhere around 2007 when you have kids you’re not watching movies anymore right I can talk to you

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about bluee if you want and so if you’re sitting there listening to

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this use those Glory Days not as a time machine but as a as a lighthouse right

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where’s this is my load star where do I go where’s the best version of this now because you’re probably not going to get

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another year of high school football in but you could I guarantee there’s a pop warner team near near who needs a coach

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right or maybe you know back then you were excited because you were building

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more stuff you know working with your hands doing wood shop I’ll say this again like not only do

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places like Home Depot offer classes that are you know that are not awful but also I mean there are a lot of these

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community help boards right are you telling me that you can’t take your skills and help an neighbor down the

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road you know fix up their fence right I mean that’s the thing it problems that

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have multiple solutions that attach multiple areas or I mean that’s that’s

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the golden bullet in the mental health world right so like okay so you’re telling me that I could get this guy who

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wants to build more stuff involved in this school for kids who are learning

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stem and then that adult is now connected to a community where there’s kids who look up to them other adults to

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bounce off of they’re doing something that brings them Joy because they’re working with their hands I mean like you

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know like more of this please right I’ll order 17 of those um so it starts with values right and if you don’t feel like

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you’ve got the time to sit down down and figure those things out as a man as a very busy guy well that’s where therapy

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can be helpful or coaching or talking to a religious leader um but it’s also I

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hereby give you permission to call your best friend and say like yo can I get an

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hour of your time I really want to talk to you about what do you think are the best parts of me right because a your

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best friend’s totally going to get get down with that and two I would bet you a Stak dinner your best friend’s probably

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a can to have that same conversation as well right so anchor in your values and move forward from there second thing is

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this idea of Occupational prison right you know are you a bread winner are you

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a stay-at-home dad are you in between jobs right do you feel like you sold out

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and you got that golden parachute but now it’s also sort of like the hamster wheel of Doom like I just have to keep

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running I just have to keep running you know the kids want to go to Disney next year I gotta keep running golden handcuffs right oh God right it’s just

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it’s wild yeah and and and it’s I’ll tell you this it

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breaks my heart every time I see this because I’ll see a guy stick his head out of the sand and be like yeah things

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are really hard at work and somebody yeah I wish I had your problems getting

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paid what you get and the guy’s like well clearly to go back under the sand and never speak again right so this is

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the thing it’s so easy to think that people have it worse

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yeah no [ __ ] right people in you know in Dar for have it worse than us okay

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that’s a thing also a lot of people have it better than you right you are much

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closer to the middle than you are to the top and I think you know the word I use for this in therapy is called top down

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versus bottom up thinking top down thinking is I want it to be perfect anything less than perfect

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is bad right if you’re a golfer you know you’re gonna get 18 like nobody’s ever

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done that sometimes to get 18 on one hole that that’s that’s that’s on that

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yeah you I can go just Duff a little bit together you know so the idea is like if

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you maybe you’re like well I’m never gonna get an 18 but like if I don’t get a 70 it’s a bad round to golf if the

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worst thing that happened to you today is you spent five hours outside with your friends you know it’s like okay you

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know like yes you didn’t swing as well as you wanted but this is you flip it to bottom up thinking the default I did

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zero the default is well holy [ __ ] I just never left the couch so you got up

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you got the clothes on you went outside you saw your friends you paid the thing you did the golf you got you know you got some drinks on the 19th Hole you

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went home that is a lot more than zero right and there’s there’s a lot of power

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in that so you know you’re allowed to be upset that it’s not the way things that

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things aren’t the way you want them to be and actually the best way to deal with that is to reframe that as but you

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know what I didn’t make my goal today but I am a damn sight closer to it than I was

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yesterday right and there’s something kind of beautiful about that right yeah I want to zoom in on that a little bit

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right because I think a lot of guys you know I work mainly with millennial generation like we have that you know um

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and quick about me like I was in the gifted and talented program and I had to like work on that perfectionism that you’re talking about right like I was

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conditioned that life was easy right I didn’t have to try in school I didn’t have to work that hard like I just kind

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of like got stuff you know um and then life got hard right like you know mid

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College I was like oh my God I need to study and I don’t didn’t have any study skills didn’t really know how to focus

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right was used to just kind of like winging it and getting you know bees getting good enough right um and I think

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a lot of Millennials have a similar story so I really just want to like underline what you’re saying this idea

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of having a good enough attempt you know know or like learning to be bad at stuff

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right because the first step to being good at something is sucking ass for like a long time like way longer than you think it is you know um but yeah I’m

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curious if you have any other strategies because I think that keeps a lot of people in my generation paralyzed for

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for decades you know decades long time I mean yeah you think about it this way

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right like it’s amazing how many things you’d be better at if you gave yourself

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permission to be a beginner right and this is where some of that masculinity stuff comes in because it’s like I got

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to be great at grilling I got to be great at parenting I got to be great at driving people on the family vacation or

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whatever it is right and it’s like you don’t have to be great at anything it’s

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awesome if you are great at something more of that please but what you need to

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be at it is competent competent a lot lower bar to clear do you know how many competent

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people are in positions of power and how many inp competent people are more so more those right yeah right you know

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it’s that’s the thing you don’t need to be great at it you just need to be able to do it and if you scale down that

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tension you’re going to find that you can breathe right you don’t need to be a

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perfect parent you just need to be a competent one you know are my kids wearing relatively clean clothes do they

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have food in their bellies and is the house not actively on fire if you do nothing else today that’s

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okay that’s a pretty good day you know and there’s so much of this stuff where

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like you know like it’s funny because you see like the social media for women

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right and how it’s like the house is perfect the birthday party was perfect right the dress was perfect the outfits

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were perfect right I feel like guys see more of the structure around that they

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see like well why is their house like that why do they have the guest room we don’t have a guest room why do why do

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they take this vacation why do they have this car why did they they they they and it’s like dude for all you know they’ve

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maxed out 13 credit cards right and they’re like they’re like One Missed pay check away from the creditors comeing

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taking it all away yeah like you know comparison is the thief of joy you know

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and when you think about the millennial generation which grew up online in a way that you know I think you and I just

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barely missed that like I remember a instant messenger yeah right but we I got Facebook in college when you could

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only be on College in Facebook if you had a college email address me too yeah I was like right on like I didn’t get a smartphone till like the end of college

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let’s go I just I missed it I’m so H I’m so happy I’m so grateful I can you

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imagine like it blows my mind so you’ve got this just wild sense of not only are

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you consumable right everyone can see it but it’s also like you know I mentioned

32:54

this before I grew up in a small town I was the smart smartest kid in my class I was definitely the smartest kid in my grade I was arguably the smartest kid in

33:01

my school right and growing up in a small town that was just what you saw that was your

33:08

only frame of reference now all I have to do is click a button on my phone and I can see anybody anywhere in the world

33:14

doing anything right it’s like oh well I mean like let me see how my my frat

33:20

brother from college is doing oh they’re in Australia that’s not a I’ve ever done

33:27

for my kids and it’s just like it’s amazing how quickly that just shatters

33:33

right and and it’s the sort of thing that a lot of times people ask you to

33:41

practice gratitude and gratitude’s a good practice I think for a lot of us

33:46

gratitude might be a step too far at first I like the idea of acknowledgement

33:52

right it’s like oh that’s a thing that’s happening it’s not good it’s not bad

33:57

it’s just a thing that’s happening right right now it’s raining it’s just a thing that’s happening right and because

34:05

there’s this idea is that you don’t have to be positive about it especially if that positivity is coming from an inauthentic Place totally yeah but you

34:13

can authentically just say that’s happening a buddy’s in Australia with his family that’s happening I definitely

34:19

have some feels about it but unless he’s a really shitty friend he didn’t go to Australia to spite you yeah know what’s

34:27

going to really get under Mark’s skin know Jesus right so it’s the idea just

34:33

give yourself permission to be like that’s a thing that happened it’s just a thing that happened and you’ll be amazed

34:39

how much the the emotions that hook on to that release you don’t give them a

34:45

place to to Anchor yeah I’m talking about it’s mindfulness practice right I mean it’s a big part of what I do right this idea of like yeah just tasting it

34:52

right just touch it and then move back right cuz cuz like you’re saying there’s a lot of value to to feeling that being

34:58

like oh wow I am jealous that’s okay use that as motivation right like great you got in touch with the desire you got in

35:04

touch that you really like Australia so figure out a way to get there you know or wow you really like that new car you really like whatever you know um but

35:10

doesn’t have to control um but similarly right I think we talk about getting stuck and and this manbox I think we’re

35:17

supposed to have no emotion you know um and especially like we can be angry but

35:23

our anger also has to be powerful we can’t be angry and impotent right we have to be like I’m pissed off and I’m

35:29

GNA kill that [ __ ] right like we have to have this like rage and be like I can’t believe they did X Y and Z like

35:35

it still have this power thing whereas when you talk about you know comparison and jealousy that’s kind of impotent

35:40

rage there there’s nothing that like I can do to get to Australia right to be with this person um and it’s insecurity

35:47

and I think a lot of men we don’t there’s no room for insecurity because it’s so unbelievably threatening you

35:54

know well and that I mean that threatening piece right because you think about fear and anger are so

36:00

intertwined and you know the fancy psychology word for this is ego syonic

36:05

basically means it’s a lot more comfortable for us to be angry than it is for us to be scared or sad or freaked

36:13

out or overwhelmed you know the thing that blew my mind when I became a dad

36:19

was how angry I was I mean I was so and I’m not an angry person I would just be

36:24

like why I’m so angry because my life was out of control and I hadn’t slept in months and and it was just so much

36:32

easier to be angry than it was to be scared or to raise my hand and say I

36:38

need help right and and it wasn’t until I sat down with my dad actually well to

36:45

I’ll bring him into my dad and my father-in-law I have a great father-in-law I’m very lucky there um

36:50

and and I was just like have you guys do you guys remember being angry when you and before I they were both like

36:58

absolutely nice nice just like and think about this just like power of having another guy to be like yo you get me

37:05

right I get you bro and that’s I mean like I like even telling this story right now I feel that release in my chest again right and it’s this idea

37:14

of you know like so like say you’re out there right you’re like I don’t have a good relationship with my dad I don’t

37:19

have a good relationship with my father-in-law you know hey another good reason to go to therapy I’ll tell this

37:24

say you say this to another guy there’s a nonzero chance he’s a dick about it there’s a like I can’t the is right yeah

37:32

but is you’re not the [ __ ] in that story right you you be vulnerable you show up

37:40

as a real version of yourself that guy’s like yeah I don’t know what the [ __ ] you’re talking about dude well a he’s

37:47

lying and B so what right because that’s

37:52

the thing like we have no face to save and if that guy thinks you know you’re less than because you showed some

37:59

vulnerability then he’s not the kind of guy you want in your life he does he’s not going to be part of your story moving forward because that’s a guy who

38:06

at best is wildly in denial and at worst is you know completely UN in touch with

38:13

his emotions like I’m not saying you need to get on the couch and watch Bridget Jones’s Diary and SOB if that’s

38:19

not your thing that’s not your thing right I’m more of a Love Actually guy myself but you know you know but the

38:25

idea is that like if way more people are carrying this

38:31

around than you think then the odds of you finding someone to share that with are higher than you think yeah you know

38:37

and just to kind of you know emphasize that I think it’s very masculine to be courageous and say things right I think

38:44

as as men like being in touch with reality as it is is a very masculine trait right like no lies no exaggeration

38:51

like you said just like recognition like this is what reality is and how do I operate in in reality as it is rather

38:57

than in my delusion of what I want it to be or what I’m afraid it is or what I hope it is or or whatever right I’m it’s

39:03

really like tapping into the moment yeah well and like you said we don’t want to have impotent anger and one of the

39:10

biggest pieces of advice I could give you if you’re listening to this is

39:15

that investing in something that will help your life that you won’t see the immediate return on is the bravest thing

39:22

you can do it it’s immediate return to punch a wall right immediate return right and walls are

39:29

undefeated you know um you’re not going to win that fight but if you invest in the therapy or if you invest in going to

39:36

a life coach or going to the gym or getting a or or going for hikes you may

39:42

not feel that change immediately but you’re going to look up four months from now and go oh [ __ ] my life is so much

39:48

better absolutely yeah there’s a lot of like value and practicing commitment and discipline I think um we’re going to

39:54

move to our next commercial break and we get back we’re going to share some more tips for getting unstuck right I think ways to like help guys move forward and

40:01

start to build right build a sense of self um so yeah if you’re interested in that we’ll see you on the other side of

40:06

the commercial

40:25

break

42:32

welcome back to the show I’m here with Dr Matt and we’re talking about getting unstuck um and I think a lot of guys get

42:38

stuck I think a lot of guys don’t want to talk about being stuck you know and I think a lot of guys um kind of can get

42:44

weighed down you know um there’s a great book I’m sure you’ve read it Atomic habits if you’re listening check out that book it’s phenomenal it’s really

42:51

powerful the audio book’s like 5 hours super short um but basically the premise of that book is that there’s nothing

42:58

personally wrong with us when we fail it’s that our systems aren’t good enough right we’re not taking care of oursel we

43:04

don’t understand our mind whether it’s neurotypical or neurodiverse we don’t have kind of the external piece in place

43:10

because I think this myth of motivation and passion and it should all be internally driven you don’t need any

43:16

help from anybody and it’s all good and if you fail it’s because you’re like a weak person or a weak man like that that

43:22

destroys people you know um so so I’m curious Matt like what are some systems

43:28

or what are some things that people can put into place to set themselves up to to win right to to get

43:33

unstuck oh man you totally stole my Atomic habits thing I was I was like you’re G do the same

43:39

thing I’ve been living that right now and it’s just like all these stupid little things I’m like oh they actually

43:45

make a difference I hate it right but since you since you you know you uh

43:50

scooped me on my book I’ll give you a different one uh the book is called how to be everything by Emily

43:57

and I tell you this as a neurod dierent person who has wanted to be everything

44:02

all the time I never found a book who spoke to my soul like this because she’s

44:08

like hey here’s this crazy idea the old way of work is dead so what does work

44:15

look like for you and she doesn’t come out and out say it’s for neuro Divergent

44:20

people but it definitely the lessons are very neurodivergent and you know so like say you’re an ADHD right and you’re like

44:26

I’ve got 93 ideas in my head right now the singular biggest problem with ADHD is your brain lacks an ability to triage

44:36

those 93 ideas you’re like so you’ll you’ll do the thing where it’s like you’re trying to cram 93 pieces of

44:42

luggage through a door and it’s like well gosh why is this stupid door broken or why do I suck that I can’t pick 93

44:49

pieces of furniture through this door it’s like crazy idea just yeah right and

44:56

but the because our brains are bad at that triage piece it sort of we don’t

45:01

know where to start and because we don’t know where to start we can’t get started so the idea here and I talk about this

45:08

with my wife all the time it’s like sometimes if you want me to do the garbage I have to wash the

45:13

dishes because we call this galaxy brain right but it’s like if I wash the dishes and the dishes will be clean and then I

45:19

can run the dis then I can run the disposal then I’ll clear the disposal put it in the garbage then take the

45:26

garbage out and as long as you can communicate that people understand where

45:31

you’re coming from you may need to walk through the side door to get the job done right you know and

45:38

that’s I don’t you know I don’t know if that’s good or bad but it’s definitely what you need to do and the thing that

45:44

works is often the thing that’s that’s you know that’s going to be most helpful to us down the line so let’s take that a

45:51

step further right let’s talk about you know you’re like I wouldn’t even know how how to get started it’s it’s too big

45:59

well Atomic habits right you can’t you’re not going to get the job you want

46:06

for making sure you shave every day but shaving every day is going to help you

46:11

along the journey to getting the job you want and as men we are wired to have it

46:16

all the time immediately we’re just talking about this before the break right investing in the stuff that the

46:22

garden you’re not going to be able to sit under for 3 years right because I’ll tell you this if

46:29

you if you are motivated to change your life you have to sign up for the long

46:36

haul you I mean it’s just immediate change doesn’t last and the thing that makes it

46:43

sustainable is Lifetime change right if you you know if your best friend’s wedding’s coming up in three months

46:49

right you could absolutely crash diet go keto cut out booze right you’ll drop 20 pounds you’ll fit into your suit you

46:55

look [ __ ] banging right you probably hook up with a bridesmaid we’re very proud of you yay right but also because

47:02

you haven’t drank in 3 months you probably get black out at the reception right yeah and then you go back to your

47:07

old habits and you put the weight right back on it’s the idea here of trying to

47:13

eat trying to drink one less beer a week or have you know like for me it was

47:19

getting all the Doritos out of the house I have a problem with Doritos right so the so but I like chips so I only have

47:25

Pringles now Pringles are a little bit better for you than Doritos or my kids got me into PopCorners PopCorners are delicious I’ll eat those all day right

47:33

the thing it’s not you know we call this in Psychology harm reduction right so

47:38

instead of taking out this giant bite of the thing take a nibble right and that’s

47:44

where you’re going to see like you are making this thing not fixed but

47:49

better and that’s a really powerful thing because that starts that positive momentum right

47:56

you know there’s a there’s a great episode of How I Met Your Mother where Barney Simpson’s like I’m going to go

48:01

run a marathon they’re like how do you know how to run a marathon he’s like this is how you’re run a marathon step one start running there is no step two

48:08

right just keep going forever yes that’s hilarious it’s also utterly unrealistic

48:13

right nobody can just leave their front door right now and run a marathon unless you’re already a marathoner right so if

48:20

you are sitting there be like I can never run a marathon not right now you can’t but those run to the mailbox and

48:27

back run to the street corner and back run around the block and back run around the neighborhood and back very far as scump right you know you just kept

48:34

running right you know and I don’t need you to run all the way back and forth across America but the idea is

48:41

that you’re closer to being able to do the thing the way to the way to light that

48:48

light that match light the fuse is to do something small right lighting the fuse doesn’t blow up the Bel I’m sorry you

48:55

don’t blow up the building with the match you use the match to light the fuse that blows up the building right

49:00

and that’s where the dis discipline you mentioned comes in yeah and I think what you’re talking about is humility which I

49:08

I think is something that a lot of men really need to practice in a way right because I think a lot of men are afraid of humiliation which is kind of the Dark

49:14

Shadow cousin of humility you know like you were saying earlier in the episode this idea that I think as men we’re

49:20

supposed to be good at everything like right out the box especially the masculine stuff we to be able to like fix things around house and do the oil

49:26

change you know and like throw the pig skin around or be a dad right I mean we we have this thing put on us that we’re

49:33

supposed to be very competent um all the time and it’s like well if you never learned how to do those things you’re

49:39

not going to be that good at it but I what I’m hearing you really talk about is this practice of humility of being

49:44

like yeah I’m going to be bad at this but that’s okay you know because I think a lot of guys do get stuck when they

49:50

they’re like I want to run a marathon and they run around the block and they’re just sweating and they feel nauseous and they’re panting and they

49:57

just want to like do nothing but Eon USS when they get back home and they’re like oh my God like they have you have to

50:03

face where you’re at you know I mean you really got to face reality when you put yourself in those challenging situations

50:10

oh absolutely and I mean I think if there’s a perhaps there’s no more

50:15

powerful idea than than that script and when it starts to play in your head it’s

50:21

like well I could be able to do if I had started in high school yeah or had you

50:26

know if I had kept going in college and I would say like listen the best time to start something was 5 years ago but the

50:32

second best time is right now we’re always in the second best time to start something right and it doesn’t matter if

50:38

you tried it and failed it before because this is you know well-worn to the point of being a cliche but it still

50:44

matters fail is a acronym for frequent attempts in learning right and if you’re a neurod

50:51

dierent person and you’re used to failing you’re used to struggling you’re like my failures indicate my lack of

50:56

worth as a human to which I say [ __ ] right because failing is humility

51:02

humility means growth yeah you know and part of that

51:08

part of that growth process is understanding where to direct that energy you know I mean let you mentioned

51:15

like changing oil throwing the P around I am halfway decent at football I am useless with car stuff me I got I call

51:22

my mechanic I’m like yeah the light’s doing the thing it’s making the noise yeah it’s be again he’s like bring it

51:28

over and I pay him for that yeah and and and you know what that’s okay right

51:34

because no one’s good at everything my wife handles all the finances in our house and I do all the cooking that’s

51:40

very atypical gender roles right but my wife hates cooking and I hate math so so it works out

51:46

yeah and I’ll tell you this there’s still that little twinge in the back of my head like when people come over and I

51:52

start cooking they’re like what are they going to say I’ll tell you this we’ve had dozens hundreds of couples through

51:58

the doors over the years nobody said a damn word yeah I’m also the primary cook in my relationship and I love it I mean it’s a huge hobby of mine and like yeah

52:05

people love it yeah but but it is like yeah it’s outside that man box right like you were saying um yeah I you know

52:13

I think like I guess how can you do you have any tips for helping people tolerate feeling stupid right or

52:20

tolerate humility because there is you know I think as both of us you know doing py therapy right like there is a

52:26

very visceral feeling you know failing when you talk about the bottom up thing

52:31

right like failing feels like something right it often feels confusing it feels defeating it feels deflating we can get

52:38

sad and with a lot of you know me personally and all the guys I work with I think it’s it takes practice to

52:44

tolerate that actual like physical sensation of failure oh yeah it absolutely does and you mentioned to go

52:51

home and work eat donuts thing I’ll tell you this when ever I try something that’s a stretch for me whether it’s

52:57

giving a talk or or doing my daughter’s hair or you know I mean those are

53:02

equally scary things just in very directions yeah I give myself a reward

53:08

like I you know our our brains run on dop me and when we attempt a task the

53:14

task completes when we get more dopamine it’s sort of like going to the gym you get a little bit more dopamine for going

53:19

than you had when you started but if that thing is really stressful you might think well like virtue is its own reward

53:26

or some other [ __ ] and like dude if you did the thing and it was a huge stret for you if going to your wife’s

53:33

office party at Christmas is a huge stress for you absolutely pour yourself a nice glass of scotch when you get home

53:39

or watch an episode of Battle Star Galactica or whatever the thing is that brings you Joy you’re allowed to invest

53:45

in your own dopamine right you know I’ll tell you this like I’ve got I’ve got a

53:50

thin mint cookie sitting here on my desk when I’m done talking to you I’m going to eat that cookie

53:55

because that dopamine Loop for me right and and so it’s that sort of thing like

54:02

it doesn’t take away the feeling of panic and Dread of failure in the moment

54:07

but you’re also closing the loop on a positive way right and then when you’ve closed that Loop then your brain’s like

54:13

okay well that was the thing that happened it’s a step on this journey let’s take the next one the other thing

54:20

and I think this is I think it’s a really powerful reframe

54:27

is struggling we mean struggling like we’re going to die like struggling like you’re

54:34

out at Ocean and there’s a RI current and you are struggling to keep your head above water and the stakes feel very

54:39

high you and I feel like struggling is it’s a better metaphor is playing video

54:44

games right if the bad guys are getting harder and the music is getting louder

54:49

and faster and the and you’re in a dungeon are you going the right direction or the wrong direction right

54:54

right it means you’re getting better right when when life gets harder you’re getting better yeah you fail more the

55:00

better you get and isn’t that weird it’s so paradoxical right but that’s the

55:05

thing and it’s like so if you see life like a video game because honestly most

55:11

things that challenge us most things that make us feel that dread that failure that failure flash they’re not

55:18

life or death they just feel it right and if you know if I try to change my

55:23

oil and I [ __ ] up and the the oil gets all over my driveway that that sucks and I’m allowed to feel upset about it but

55:30

the only thing that’s changed is there’s oil on my driveway Y and that’s time to learn how to clean up motor oil right even another opportunity to

55:36

learn you know honey could you get me a large beer

55:41

please and that’s the thing it’s just like yeah you know if you can see the things you’re doing in a broader context

55:48

of growth right then I think what ends up happening is that you give yourself

55:54

permission to fail more often and thus get better faster yeah yeah you know we

55:59

have to start to wrap up our episode but I feel like we could keep talking for another couple hours um so I’m sure I’ll have you on uh for a future episode as

56:06

well but Dr Matt um where can people learn more about you if they want to hear more of your talks um or kind of

56:12

tap into your knowledge um so I have two primary jobs so therapy is through the neurodiversity

56:19

collective that’s our group therapy practice and we’ve got a lot we’ve got myself and a couple of great people on

56:25

the team and if these ideas make sense for like your organization or your company then it’s drms acy.com and I

56:33

travel all over the world to give talks and it’s really my favorite thing to do so you know that’s how you find me and

56:39

do get more of this other awesomeness there you go hell yeah man yeah so check

56:45

that out both those links are in our show notes so you should be able to click on those um and uh we just started

56:50

video streaming this podcast uh so if you want to see what we look like we are on YouTube you can just Google or I

56:56

guess search for men’s therapy online and you’ll find this it’s also on our website www.men therapy. online or

57:04

www.menstherapy.podcast.com so check all that stuff out um to get more out of

57:09

this podcast so Dr Matt thank you again for being on the show Mark it was a pleasure thanks for having me yeah take

57:14

care

57:23

bye