Dissecting the Concept of Masculinity w/ Joel Bouchard

Dissecting the Concept of Masculinity w/ Joel Bouchard

February 21, 2024

On this episode we’re joined by Joel Bouchard, the host of the philosophy podcast From Nowhere to Nothing. We’ll lean into his philosophical roots and try to understand the concept of masculinity from the bottom up. What is masculinity? How do we create it? And how do we give it meaning?

Episode Transcript:

0:01

[Music] Mark azoulay is an industry leader in

0:07

Psychotherapy and men’s mental health he’s helped countless guys get back on their feet deepen their relationships

0:14

and Excel in their lives now he’s taken all that he has learned and is sharing it with you in each episode Mark will

0:22

interview an expert in the field of masculinity and men’s work we’ll cover topics such as emotional intelligence

0:28

masculine identity anger management Financial Health trauma recovery marriage and divorce ethics and

0:36

spirituality tune in and become a better man welcome back to the show I’m your

0:41

hostad and here with Joe Bart he is a PhD student studying psychology and the

0:46

host of the from nowhere to nothing podcast which is a philosophy podcast that dives into basically any topic

0:52

imaginable you can think of um and we’re going to talk today about some of the philosophical roots of masculinity as a

0:58

construct and what it might mean to you what it means to Joel what it means to me so Joel welcome to the show hey

1:05

thanks for having me on yeah so before we dive into kind of the philosophical discussion I’m curious a little bit

1:10

about about you how did you get into this work what you been your journey with masculinity I know you were a veteran um what are some things you can

1:17

let our listeners know about who they’re talking to yeah yeah I’ve got a you know a a

1:24

long story um you know I’ve done a lot of different things in life from uh yeah being in the mil to music to um painting

1:32

and and uh you know leading a a business and podcasting and um school and and

1:38

pretty much anything right I’m always trying to be a uh a new at something right and I think that that’s an

1:44

important element of of growth is is uh being able to um move outside your

1:50

comfort zones and and be willing to struggle and fail with some new things but uh you know as far as masculinity

1:57

goes I think that um everybody’s Journey is complicated with it right because I

2:02

think a lot of our first um sort of interactions with the concept are um

2:10

toxic in some ways right it’s it’s it’s overwhelmingly um in the wild more

2:17

likely to encounter a negative masculine stereotype than than a positive one in a

2:22

lot of ways but yeah I think that’s true right and I I think a lot of boys when we’re young we know we’re not men so

2:29

first encounter is like oh I’m not this yet and maybe I want to be this maybe I don’t but there is a very clear

2:36

difference right between a boy’s experience and a grown man’s experience yeah yeah I think there’s sort of an

2:42

inferiority complex built into it um no matter how good your upbringing right I had a I had a dad who was uh you know

2:49

just a model uh dad you know just great um you know he’s a a church pastor and

2:56

um was really an emotionally caring guy and stuff but but still you know he him and I had very different personalities

3:02

you know he was very emotional um and and very outspoken and um you know very

3:09

he he was a masculine guy right he liked to work out he liked to be competitive that sort of thing and um you know by

3:15

Nature I’m I’m kind of introverted and and kind of quiet and I like to keep to myself and I’d much rather you know do

3:22

something by myself or collaborate versus you know compete and so yeah growing up with that with uh you know a

3:29

father figure that that has some of those sort of um you

3:34

know uh you know typical masculine traits and then you trying to to find

3:41

your own way inside that is a little bit difficult yeah I’m curious did the two of you find a way to connect was there a

3:48

bridge we did eventually um and it it was when um you know throughout

3:56

throughout my whole childhood right it was the kind of thing I was a middle child too so my brother and my sister were much like my dad very emotional

4:03

very outspoken and and the way that the family sort of operated right was they would they would fight very loud and

4:09

then they’d make up right and they theyd get very emotionally close um whereas um

4:15

I never wanted to fight so it was all avoidance but then there was also this distance an emotional distance between

4:21

us right and um but eventually in my teenage years um my dad came to work for

4:27

me at my at the business that I managed and um from there we got a little bit closer and uh he died a couple years ago

4:34

from from a rare form of cancer and um you know you think about oh you know for

4:40

a while I was thinking man do I regret the relationship that Dad that Dad and I missed out on when I was younger right

4:46

and what I came to realize is that not really right because in those final years what I realized is the the

4:53

relationship that we did have was one that worked for both of us right we we started to figure it out that you know

4:59

hey um just because I don’t fight or or show my emotions on my sleeve doesn’t

5:05

doesn’t mean that uh I don’t love him and uh you know just because you know he

5:11

has a propensity to do those things doesn’t mean that we can’t have a relationship that was was to Unique to who we were as two um individual people

5:19

as opposed to what a a father son or any other type of relationship is supposed to be you know totally yeah and I think

5:26

it’s it’s inspiring right because it sounds like you were able to make that adult relationship where I think a lot of guys are stuck in that kind of

5:33

submissive you know childlike role where either they play their father’s game right or they are separate right because

5:40

we’re just trying to fit in with our parent parental figure U but it sounds like you guys were able to at least towards the end there evolve your

5:46

relationship into something that was more Equitable yeah yeah and there was like I said there was a lot of trouble in in

5:52

the meantime right because I think there was some things where you know I you overcompensate during your teenage years

5:59

right so coming to the realization right that I’m an introvert and uh you know these sorts of things you start to think

6:05

well I’m going to make up for it right you become hyper competitive and and you decide you’re going to join the Army and

6:11

you start you start um doing uh things that are that are tox toxic right that

6:20

fall into that toxic masculine um sort of category and you know some of them

6:25

are things that you know I could tell stories of and people would be like oh wow that’s really cool you know um but

6:32

it wasn’t right when you think about the psychological toll uh that it took you

6:37

know and how you had to recover from it and how you had to adjust you go you

6:42

know these stories that um might you know would be similar to things that

6:48

would Grace a film screen or a novel or something that people sort of idealize

6:54

it’s uh it’s not really all that um all that healthy in reality yeah I’m curious

7:01

about your internal experience of that and I’m drawing some connections in my story I didn’t join the Army but I was a

7:06

drug addict right I did a lot of like partying and drug dealing I did that kind of version of toxic masculinity of

7:12

I was also a very quiet kid you know didn’t feel like I fit in I want to reinvent myself and I would just

7:17

couldn’t say no to anything so I would just go into all these situations that were dangerous or scary or way out of my

7:23

depth and I just could not back down you know um and again some of those stories are like you know whatever you know War

7:29

Stories or bragging or like cool wild experiences But ultimately I was I was scared almost all the time and I felt

7:37

like a even more of an impostor than I did because I feel like I didn’t want to be myself but I also couldn’t be I

7:42

couldn’t maintain this character that I had created so I’m curious there similarities uh with you in your young

7:48

adulthood yeah yeah it runs the gamut you know across experiences but that is

7:54

what it boils down to right is it doesn’t matter if you are an outspoken guy or introverted guy or any of those

8:01

types of things um when you get to be in those teenage years and you have a peer

8:06

group and things um you do get to that point where um saying no seems like an

8:12

existential threat and so you go along you either go along with things um that you that you don’t

8:18

actually support and and you’re afraid or you you overreach and you try to

8:25

accomplish things um that that don’t mean anything to you or might even be

8:30

dangerous or unhealthy you know so yeah no it definitely resonates yeah you know kind of like building a facade character

8:36

structure right this idea of who you think you should be or who other men think you should be um at least for me

8:42

that that competition thing was always there of like wanting to belong to this you know group of men out there to be an

8:48

adult to be successful to be I don’t know have a girlfriend right like all these kind of like markers but um for me

8:56

it was always like uh it was like cosplaying right I was like laring a man right just based on what I saw from the

9:01

external view rather than doing a lot of the internal work it didn’t take me it was until my late 20s that I really

9:07

started doing more of the internal work um I’m curious what your journey was with

9:12

that yeah no it’s it’s pretty interesting I would say mid 20s was when I started to turn some things around and

9:18

and the the sort of um ironic part about that right is that you grow up wanting to be a man and doing all these things

9:25

and then when you finally give that up you know and just are open to um you know genuinely hey who do I want

9:31

to be what do I want to be like that’s when all the personal growth starts and all the cool stuff starts right so um

9:38

you know that’s that’s where now you know you do the things if if you would have told my teenage self right oh hey

9:44

you’ll you’ll have a podcast you know have albums online you’ll join the Army you will have done all this stuff I’d

9:50

say you know wow like okay so I I do grow up to be a man right but none of that stuff was done for that reason

9:58

right now after the fact it all came from a place of of growth and and and

10:03

from a mindset where now I don’t feel like um you know I I I haven’t done any

10:09

of that to for anybody else and I I Don’t Force It Down people’s throat a lot of people I call myself the world’s

10:15

worst marketer right most people don’t know that I have a podcast drive albums right unless it comes up um but just

10:22

because if if you’re doing something because you you love it and you want to do it um then it carries on right and if

10:29

you do it just because it’s something you feel obligated to do because of your gender or for any other reason it’s it’s

10:36

doomed to failure absolutely yeah I mean one of what I see is a pillar of being

10:41

an adult right and certainly being adult male is having an honor code you know having a set of values that you carry

10:47

with you into any circumstance right or having a Passion or a life mission statement or PE of a thousand words for

10:52

this thing I’m curious if you’ve put thought or or what yours is do you have a value set or a mission statement or

10:58

internal Compass of A Sort yeah I’ve been asked this a lot of times and and I

11:04

get some some people don’t like my answer right but but I’m a philosopher right so I I I do think very deeply

11:11

about things and basically what it boils down to is one thing right and the one

11:17

thing that I always stand by is that I’m always willing to change right so um a

11:24

lot of people say well what are your what are your core values you know what what are the things that never change no that’s that’s my whole point is I always

11:31

want to be open to change right I never want to not question um the things that

11:37

that make me who I am because that’s what you what we we’ve been talking about is what I found out early in my

11:43

life is the things that I thought made me who I am um were misguided and they were being you know LED astray by gender

11:50

stereotypes or by other um you know familial conflicts and that sort of thing right so um as we’re all on this

11:57

journey to um of self-growth I think that it’s important to always be willing

12:03

to to reflect on what your guiding principles are and if they’re still working for you or not yeah I think

12:09

that’s really great very very Buddhist of you we were chatting a little bit about Buddhism uh in the pre-show I guess I want to ask I going

12:17

say like how do you do that but I think the answer is like therapy introspection reading talking to people right so I guess a little more personal what has

12:23

that process been like for you of change right and introspection and evolution is

12:29

ultimately what I’m what I’m hearing yeah yeah um so you know it’s it

12:35

it it looked pretty bad starting in in late my late teens right um there’s just

12:40

a series of um things where where stuff goes downhill right if you’re in this

12:46

mindset of constant competition and constantly pushing the envelope um and doing that sort of thing eventually you

12:52

fail and usually it’s spectacularly right and um I had you know some

12:58

situations where was several times in a row right and it just was crushing and um then you you have this experience

13:05

with depression and anxiety and questioning who you are and what you’re doing and those sorts of things and uh

13:12

you know that unfortunately lasts lasted years right and um you know I I don’t

13:18

really know what it was that started to pull me out of it but I just remember you know kind of working this deadend

13:25

job and looking into my lunch and seeing you know like two Little Debbie snacks

13:30

and two bags of like chips and being like I’m a full grown man like what what am I eating like I got to change

13:38

something and so it started there you know and I started just eating eating healthy stuff that I that I knew I could

13:45

stick with hey I like cucumbers hey I like carrots hey I like apples you know and and building a healthy diet and you

13:51

know I’ve always worked out so you know um but again it was all focused around

13:57

you know weight training right so I had a a lot of shoulder injuries and things that just from doing things the wrong

14:03

way so I revamp things right okay well I’m going to focus on cardio and flexibility and strength and find a way

14:11

to do it so that’s sustainable and healthy and um you know really kind of putting some effort into my my job and

14:18

into my relationships and um you know making a making concerted effort to um

14:25

take control of of your life and that always happens in the the present moment right and so you know you can’t really

14:32

dwell on what happened before or worry about what’s going to happen later at some point you just have to look at

14:38

what’s going on now and what can I change as a a step to becoming who I want to be next yeah there’s a lot of

14:45

wisdom in that you know the way that I hear it there’s um a men’s writer iron John um is a author is Robert BL of the

14:52

book’s iron on John and he talks about this ashes phase right where guys have to just like go all the way down to just

14:58

being being a pile of ashes and being burnt and just being crisp right and

15:03

what gets people out of it is exactly what you talked about right it’s humility it’s actually being like [ __ ] I’m in the ashes right I’m just like a

15:10

charred body you know tossed aside and I think for a lot of young men humility is really hard for us right it’s hard for

15:16

me to admit like yeah I actually eat I actually do eat like [ __ ] I actually am not that physically strong I actually

15:22

like don’t have a girlfriend and that’s okay it just means that this is the foundation that I’m working from whereas

15:27

I think you know a lot of young men are arrogant right we just want to front we want to put forward that we got everything figured out so I’m hearing

15:33

from your story that that humility was a real big factor of looking at that you know the Little Debbie snacks and being

15:39

like okay you know this sucks this is where I’m at no shame no guilt like let’s start moving forward yeah and that

15:46

really was the big Revelation right was this was this uh you know realization

15:52

that that being humble and and failing wasn’t this this thing that I should be

15:57

running away from it was a thing that I should be running towards right and that’s what I’ve been doing ever since right um buying a 3D printer and just

16:05

failing over and over again until you real figure out how to use the thing right and uh that St from music too

16:10

right with music there’s always this competition between musicians well what it boils down to is music is Art right

16:16

everybody loves all kinds of different stuff it’s a subjective thing there’s no objective measure of what makes good

16:22

music right there’s technically good musicians there’s creatively good musicians so rather than than about this

16:29

as a competition you know think about it as as something that’s enriching your life and so what you can or can’t

16:35

accomplish technically or what you fail at versus what you succeed at um these

16:40

are just all terms that are ultimately meaningless for the overall experience of what you’re trying to do and that

16:47

transcends music into Life as a whole as well so yeah well and you know to kind

16:53

of piggyback off your idea of growth and change you know you should be listeners out there like failing like 25 30% of

16:59

the time right like that means you’re on your Edge if you’re if you’re winning every time then your life is a little bit too easy and you’re not growing and

17:06

if you’re failing you know 50% or more then your life probably a little bit too hard you need to scale it back a little bit right but like you should be failing

17:13

somewhat regularly because that’s how that’s how we grow right is failing forward yeah yeah absolutely and uh yeah

17:20

that’s just that’s where I’m at now and that’s what what gets you into all the

17:25

different hobbies and all the different Adventures that end up making your life what it is is

17:31

being willing to take that step um not for Pride’s sake not for ego’s sake and

17:37

not with some fear of failure but but for for the you know wanting to learn

17:42

wanting to grow and uh in whatever form that might take sometimes you have to learn the lesson by by failing and

17:48

sometimes you you succeed yeah yeah I think it’s a really great message I mean one of my uh core

17:54

values right to go back to that is this idea of uh Mastery right which is like getting good at something like literally

17:59

anything like it doesn’t actually matter right I think as toxic mine is like oh it has to be sports or weightlifting or

18:05

money or women right but like doesn’t matter just get good at something because I think the process of seeking

18:11

Mastery you learn a lot you have to learn a lot about yourself you have to learn discipline you have to learn

18:16

practice you have to learn to be humble you have to learn how to learn you know there’s so much involved in just growing skills building hobbies and just trying

18:23

to improve um by whatever Dimension required so I love you talking about that um we are going to go to our first

18:29

commercial break when we come back we’ll dive more into philosophical roots of masculinity talk about you know things

18:35

like gender binary masculine feminine energies I’m curious your thoughts around some of those things especially

18:40

how they’ve evolved um throughout you know decades and centuries so if you’re listening hang on in there and we’ll see

18:46

you on the other side follow voice America at facebook.com/ am for juicy updates from

18:54

your favorite radio shows and podcasts men’s therapy online is now

18:59

accepting new members men’s therapy online offers a solution to the lack of outlets for emotional expression

19:06

positive role models and access to meaningful Milestone experiences in our

19:11

postco world loneliness is at an all-time high men need consistent

19:16

Community our society is rapidly changing old models of masculinity are falling at the task of promoting

19:22

emotional intelligence and meaningful connection men’s therapy online offers tools and experience

19:28

designed to help the man who is struggling to balance traditional male roles and emotional fluidity whether you

19:35

need to get back on your feet or take your life to the next level men’s therapy online has your back we help our

19:42

members become a true 21st century man a man who is not burdened by the rapid

19:47

change of society but who contributes to it honorably if you’re interested in signing up and finding your Band of

19:54

Brothers go to men’s therapy. online to learn more that’s that’s men’s therapy.

19:59

online start your journey today voice America programs are now

20:07

available on your favorite connected device including Amazon Alexa and Google home through streams with apple podcasts

20:14

tune in in iHeart Radio listening to your favorite show is as easy as saying the show name followed by the word

20:21

podcast hey Alexa play finding your frequency podcast if that doesn’t work

20:27

try adding on TuneIn or on iheard radio or on Apple

20:33

podcast your life your health your network you’re listening to voice

20:38

America health and

20:46

wellness you are listening to the men’s therapy podcast with Mark aalay to reach

20:51

the show today please call 866472 5791 that’s 866 472

20:59

5791 or send an email to podcast at Men’s therapy. online or visit www.

21:06

men’s therapy podcast.com now back to the men’s therapy

21:11

podcast welcome back to the show I’m here with Joel buard um musician podcast

21:17

host of the from nowhere to nothing podcast and we’re talking about we always talk about on the show masculinity right um so Joel when we

21:24

left off we were talking about some of the toxic forms of masculinity which the way I kind of view that is it’s

21:31

masculinity that is all external focused I think we were talking about that it’s like that kind of Cosplay lar thing it’s

21:37

not rooted in any kind of set of values it’s more about trying to project

21:43

masculinity right and often keeping like gatekeeping people right there’s bullying there’s being a tyrant there’s

21:48

like this dominance thing that that shows up but a lot of the guys that live in that are often very insecure and kind

21:54

of empty on the inside so you were sharing a little bit how your story was moving from that into a more internal

22:01

locus of control a more internal focus and especially through this idea of learning new things being open-minded

22:08

introspection um being open to change which I think is phenomenal and I think it makes masculinity a more fluid

22:14

concept and a more evolved concept so to bring to bring you back into the conversation I’m curious what do you

22:20

think the modern version of masculinity is or or or will be like where are we moving towards as a

22:26

gender yeah it’s interesting right because um you know so much has happened

22:32

in the since the the dawn of the 21st century right and so when we talk a lot about toxic masculinity in the last

22:40

segment um you know you go well if what isn’t toxic masculinity right if we if

22:49

if we take away all the to the stuff that’s toxic do you just end up with somebody who’s a good person and then does that good person have to be

22:56

masculine or can it just be anybody does Mas masculinity lose any sense of meaning right and I think that we’re

23:02

seeing that um in in modern uh you know sort of Pop Culture um this the the

23:09

gender fluid kind of way that we’re heading um is it all is it all just a construct right is there anything that

23:17

um can be actually objectively thought of as as being masculine and that’s a

23:24

fascinating question to me and I don’t pretend to to know the answer and um that in itself is something that a lot

23:30

of people um have a hard time accepting right we want to know and as a philosopher um I’m open to saying that I

23:37

almost never know right I have and a scientist right A lot of people don’t know that about science but but science

23:43

never proves anything right all science does is collect evidence to support a certain hypothesis but at any given time

23:50

any hypothesis can be disproven and most of them are eventually so there’s a lot of uncertainty in science in philosophy

23:58

opy and and in masculinity right so does masculinity exist as a concept um I

24:05

think so uh and this comes from psychology right you can you can look at psychological experiments um Imaging

24:11

studies of of the brain and and this sort of thing and you can actually watch men and women’s Brains work differently

24:18

um math is a good example um men are not better at math men and women are both equally good but but they use different

24:25

brain Pathways to solve math problems women use a lot more prefrontal cortex whereas men use a lot more parietal lobe

24:32

um so I think that there is you know there’s structural and there’s functional differences in the way that

24:39

men and women’s Brains work um and I think that at the bare minimum that level uh could be seen as as providing

24:47

some support for the idea that that masculinity is a separate um construct

24:54

or sort of topic now masculinity is a behavioral um thing versus a um

25:01

structural uh thing in the brain but I think that there’s some overlap in how

25:06

how it presents itself right and so you know it’s it’s just uh how what does

25:14

that look like you know it’s it’s it’s hard to say but I think that what it boils down to is there’s a lot more that

25:21

has to do with um internal strength of character versus external posturing and

25:27

um how that’s demonstrated is in some

25:32

ways contradictory to um toxic masculinity right um I know

25:39

that for me you know lots of times the hardest thing to do is to forgive

25:45

somebody or to step up in somebody’s absence right at work you know rather than calling somebody out or or doing

25:52

something you know rash it takes a lot more strength to to hold your tongue and

25:57

to just step up and and do what needs to be done to accomplish a goal um so yeah

26:03

I think that there’s I think there’s a few different ways that that it that it separates but ultimately you know I

26:08

think it’s still an open question what what it what it means and what it’s heading towards yeah I I think it is I

26:16

mean the gender space is is on fire right now right I mean there’s so much conversation around gender fluidity and

26:22

queering of everything right and things just all blending and it’s it is a

26:27

compli question right cuz I just to kind of you know read what you’re saying right I think there are I agree with you I think there are significant sex

26:33

differences right of like men and women are different physiologically different in some ways I agree with you one’s not

26:39

better than another I think we both need each other I think we both compliment each other really well but yeah there’s certainly neurological differences

26:45

there’s certainly physiological differences there’s bone structure differences there’s there’s organ differences right like we don’t have a

26:51

uterus yeah I mean there’s those like significant differences um between the

26:56

the sexes um and masculinity has been very fluid throughout history you know

27:02

but there to me there does seem to be some things that how do I say this like like gender has been so crucial in so

27:08

many cultures right like many languages are gendered right there’s female and male words you know there’s there’s

27:15

female where suffixes you know like there are female and male um you know spaces right it it’s there’s there’s you

27:22

know creation myths that involve a binary and a duality you know this this this idea of a Duality has always been

27:29

in almost every I think every culture I don’t know if there’s a single one that has been as fluid as what you know

27:35

Western and certainly American culture might be moving towards um and it and it makes me excited and also a little bit

27:41

afraid that we might lose something um if we move away from some of these more traditional or ancient forms um you know

27:48

I’m always wary of like throwing the baby out with the bath water and I think it’s worth evolving the definition of masculinity rather than just rejecting

27:54

it you know which I see I see happening out there some sometimes and I think a lot of young men especially you know I work with a fair number of um gen Z

28:01

clients and a lot of the men are very confused about what it means to be a man right now more so than I even I think I

28:08

was as a millennial um and a lot of you know being a straight white man or

28:13

whatever right is like not cool uh in Colorado right as a young kid so they’re they end up like trying on different

28:20

identities and experimenting with different things and and kind of moving away from being like the traditional

28:27

thing um so I mean that’s a bunch of words there but but I’m curious like yeah curious like do you see value

28:35

in some of those traditional definitions is there any is there any nuggets to be gleaned

28:41

there yeah I think that you know I I agree with what you said which is that um you know there’s there’s an equality

28:48

of well there’s an equality of experience right um people’s people’s internal experience is

28:56

their reality um and so we have to accept that for people who

29:03

are gendered differently as well as people who are gendered um traditionally right so I think that there’s always

29:09

going to be masculinity in in the sense that there’s always going to be you know

29:15

cisgendered men who identify as as as male but I think that that also allows

29:22

for some Evolution and and progressiveness of the concept as well um but no I I I

29:31

think that I think that you’re right I think that the traditional Concepts there is always going to be

29:37

some there and that they’re going to have some value um and I think that you

29:43

know what that looks like is um is I is strength ultimately right and but not

29:52

not necessarily strength in an external way can be that but but more of an internal strength and internal um

29:58

strength of character of understanding um of understanding who you are and I

30:04

think that’s the biggest place that toxic masculinity gets it wrong right is this sort of floundering around in in

30:12

strength of different types um but but there’s no identification of who you are

30:17

and there the the things that you’re strong in aren’t the things that are valued by Society or ultimately even by

30:23

yourself you know yeah it’s the idea of having some

30:29

sense of internal like you said internal Compass internal consistency right even if like you said your your internal

30:34

Compass is to be open to change and be open-minded or and be pursuing you know new ideas there is a consistency within

30:40

that I think there was something very masculine about being and you go back to traditional metaphors right being like a

30:46

pillar being a rock you know being Dependable being trustworthy right being safe you know like a safe man is a

30:52

consistent man is a Dependable man you know I think when a man becomes chaotic right and when we become you know we lie

31:00

right or we deceive or we manipulate we can be very dangerous for Society for our families for the women in our lives

31:06

you know and and women can can sniff that out and men can sniff that out if there’s a man that is inconsistent um so

31:12

I think there is some level of like trustworthiness that comes with the idea of masculinity because you know

31:18

historically we would hold roles that require that we would be guards we would be Hunters we would be Builders we would

31:24

be people that show up every day and try to get [ __ ] done um and we would need to show up every day so I I do think that

31:31

discipline especially in kind of the traditional sense I think women have their own and feminine has their own version of discipline but I think the

31:37

traditional sense of discipline is very masculine of like show up and do it right show show show up for your life

31:43

every day and whatever that may be right but show up every day yeah and I was on a a podcast this week with it was a

31:49

veterans podcast and the guy who’s hosting it you know I mean he’s the man’s man right like he was a special

31:54

forces dude you know deployed six years years and stuff but a really cool guy and one of the things we talked about

32:00

was this gap between the old the old guard and the new guard right and how um

32:06

you know this this idea of well just have a stiff upper lip and and just put up with it is unhealthy and is what is

32:14

sort of at the root of the PTSD and suicide issues and and sexual assault issues and all these controversies and

32:21

problems you see going on in the military sort of stem from that um but also on the flip side um this problem

32:28

with um some of the younger generation right that we derogatorily label as as

32:33

being snowflakes um and how you know he people talk about the woke military right how

32:40

we’re catering to these things and and watering things down and realizing that you know there that although it’s put in

32:48

negative terms like that there is some reality to um the fact that these things

32:55

weaken resilience and you need resilience in soldiers right you need resilience in in any

33:03

aspect of life but but like you were saying especially the ones traditionally ascribed male masculine roles um and

33:09

that’s exactly what you were just pointing out resilience is getting up every day and doing it and um you know

33:16

the stiff upper lip thing um you know so half of it is is is facing the issues

33:22

but the other half is finding out ways to deal with that and I think that’s the

33:27

portion that was missing from sort of the traditional Paradigm yeah I I I agree right and I think like that’s a

33:33

great example of evolution of masculinity where it’s being like yes I will get up and do it but some days are

33:39

going to be harder and I’m going to need self-care afterwards I’m need to do recovery I’m need to get back out there

33:44

so that I can keep doing it you know so that I can keep the discipliner and the resilience going whereas I think the

33:49

toxic thing is just what you’re saying is just being like it doesn’t affect me I’m good everything’s fine like deny

33:55

deny deny until eventually you know the engine breaks down right and you go crazy or get injured or something there

34:02

right so think there is a there’s a more fluidity but it’s still keeping that oath and that vow and that commitment

34:09

that we make yeah absolutely yeah I think that that’s that’s right on you

34:14

know and um and what that looks like is going to be different for different people but at you know in the end

34:20

everybody does need does need that right and um you know it’s again it varies

34:27

from person to person we see a lot of people in the military and because everybody has the same haircut and they

34:33

wear the same uniform and they’re all in the same shape you think of as being the same person but U they’re all people

34:38

they’re just good you know there’s there’s good people and bad people and there’s creative people and there’s um

34:44

you know just all types and so you know figuring out what you need to do in

34:49

order to to deal with the things that you have to face is is an important part of

34:55

of not just being a man but being a a healthy well-rounded person it’s being a

35:00

human right just like know what what I tell my guys it’s like you know really get to understand your user manual right

35:06

understand like who you are what works for you what doesn’t if you can understand that then you can accomplish anything you know um and and you know

35:13

back to your point earlier in your story I think it includes and it’s critical to have no judgment with that right like

35:20

you might require something that other guys don’t for whatever reason but that doesn’t mean that you don’t get to have that it just means that you have to do

35:26

it you know um like for me like like I I enjoy Spas right like I enjoy going to a

35:32

spa I enjoy getting pampered I like that is like very very nourishing to me and that’s like a you know typically

35:37

feminine more feminine activity right but if I like thought there’s something wrong with me like I was a [ __ ] or like

35:43

I shouldn’t need that or like you know it would be gay or something to to do that like then I would be depriving

35:50

myself from something that really nourishes me you know and I think like as guys it’s worth having that

35:56

understand understanding of you know I think it’s masculine to take responsibility for your life and it’s human right humanistic to try to

36:03

understand who we are without judgment um because it is kind of random right or at the very least very hard to trace

36:09

where and why those things might have come from yeah yeah and also you know identifying um when the behaviors that

36:17

you think are coping behaviors might be negative right and I still run into this to this day right I’m somebody who likes

36:23

to be busy um and I I I tried a really good job balancing my life right okay I

36:28

sleep my eight hours a day and you know I eat healthy and I work out and I do these things but then I have all these Hobbies right and I’m married and I have

36:36

a social life right and once in a while my wife says listen you gotta you got to take a break you know because I haven’t

36:42

I haven’t seen you in a while because you’ve been doing all this stuff you know there’s that then there is that part of you that goes yeah but this is

36:48

the stuff that like this is the stuff that makes me who I am you know and you have to you have to real well no like

36:54

being a husband is part of what makes makes me who I am as well right um and you I have a responsibility there so

37:01

yeah responsibilities span the gamut from you know your job or from the big things that we consider masculine all

37:08

the way down to taking care of yourself taking care of your of your relationships all of those different

37:13

things are are part of being a a man yeah and that’s a bigger topic maybe we’ll talk about it in our final segment

37:20

but this idea of relationships I think men are being called in my opinion to step up more in relationships right

37:26

because of all the wonderful things that a feminist movement have done for women right they they don’t need us in the same way and we can’t get away with just

37:33

being the the paycheck or the bread winner and I think for men for most men whether it’s biological or conditioned

37:39

or whatever right and hard to tell it’s more difficult for us I think to to show up in a relationship in the way that we

37:44

need to now you know I think that that is a big call to action for men I’m curious if you agree with that or what

37:50

do you think about that idea yeah yeah I think that it’s I think it’s really easy to not care and but I think that that’s

37:58

the last thing that’s needed and I think that it sort of ties in with what we’ve been talking about it’s not resilient it’s not strong it’s not the things it’s

38:06

not masculine right um but it but it’s it’s easier to avoid those issues and and just not not act like you don’t care

38:14

yeah so I think that’s a great topic to kick off our next segment with um so if you’re listening we’ll see you on the side the commercial break where we’ll

38:19

talk about mascul in relationship voice America is on LinkedIn connect with us

38:27

today men’s therapy online is now accepting new members men’s therapy online offers a solution to the lack of

38:34

outlets for emotional expression positive role models and access to meaningful Milestone experiences in our

38:41

postco world loneliness is at an all-time high men need consistent

38:46

Community our society is rapidly changing old models of masculinity are falling at the task of promoting

38:52

emotional intelligence and meaningful connection men’s therapy online offers tools and experiences designed to help

38:59

the man who is struggling to balance traditional male roles and emotional fluidity whether you need to get back on

39:06

your feet or take your life to the next level men’s therapy online has your back

39:11

we help our members become a true 21st century man a man who is not burdened by

39:17

the rapid change of society but who contributes to it honorably if you’re interested in signing up and finding

39:23

your Band of Brothers go to men’s therapy. online to learn more that’s

39:28

men’s therapy. online start your journey

39:33

today have you become a member yet sign up now to become a member of voice America it’s always free and easy plus

39:40

you get to take advantage of some great member benefits get unlimited access to millions of hours of on demand content

39:47

across all of our channels keep track of your favorite episodes shows and hosts in your own customizable Library find

39:53

out what shows you might be interested in based on your favorites Plus you get Insider access with our newsletter

39:58

membership gives you more sign up at voice am.com and click register at the top

40:05

right your life your health your network you’re listening to voice America health

40:12

and [Music]

40:19

wellness you are listening to the men’s therapy podcast with Mark aalay to reach

40:24

the show today please call [Music] 866472 5791 that’s

40:31

866472 5791 or send an email through podcast men therapy. online or visit

40:38

www.men theapy podcast.com now back to the men’s therapy

40:45

podcast welcome back to the show um talking to Joel Bard about masculinity

40:50

and about masculan relationship and we were chatting in our last segment about how I think men are really being called

40:56

to step up in relationship with our romantic Partners um you know men women whoever and I think also as fathers I

41:03

didn’t mention that in the last one but I think as fathers the male role is expanding you know and I think it’s a

41:08

good thing I think it’s a good thing I think it’s intimidating for some men that we now we have to do more than just

41:14

be the bread winner you know just be the provider and just be like the guy that just goes to the game right like I think

41:20

we’re being asked to be more than just present you know I we’re being asked to be more emotionally connected and just

41:26

more aware um so I’m curious for you you said you were married um what’s your journey with that been to kind of show

41:33

up more in relationship yeah this is something that I you know I struggle with every day you

41:40

know um maybe maybe more than anything else right um you know I’m I’m an expert

41:45

learner right so I would like love picking up new stuff and uh figuring it out and getting pretty proficient in it

41:52

um but like we talked about at the beginning I’m I’m an introvert and I’ve got a lot of hobbies and uh just a lot

41:59

of things going on so when it comes to to trying to establish um relationships

42:06

especially close relationships I struggle to the point where my friends affectionately refer to me as the

42:12

robot just the guy that is uh you know pretty pretty flat and stuff but um yeah

42:17

I’ve been I’ve been married for you know 12 and a half years um and we were together for for five years before that

42:23

so you know going on 20 years great relationship I love my wife um she loves me she’s my polar opposite very

42:30

extroverted and uh bright and sparkly and loud and um but yeah you know it’s

42:36

it’s something that that we’ve we’ve struggled with from time to time where um you know I’m I’m busy doing what I’m

42:43

doing and she’s busy trying to set up plans or or trying to plan Vacations or trying to do things and and every once

42:49

in a while she’ll say you know I would just like you to to you know not even

42:54

help just have an opinion right just to to show some input put it put forth some effort right and um you know in those

43:01

moments that’s where you realize yeah I’m not doing enough here you know I’ve I’ve gota I’ve gotta um put some effort

43:08

into this the same way that I do everything else you know yeah I think

43:13

it’s a common struggle I mean I struggle with with my fiance in the same way I think a lot of men struggle with this

43:19

because at least one thing I’ve heard from a lot of clients that I’ve worked with a kind of a pet Theory I’m working on is I think you know as men we B Bond

43:26

through shared goals and objectives right like like we Bond through doing a project together through accomplishing a

43:32

mission whether that mission is of military exercise or a hike right or you know a vacation or a kaying trip

43:39

whatever right like we really Bond through a third party through some kind of external goal right and a very linear

43:45

way of bonding whereas I think more feminine people and again to be really clear like you can have feminine men and masculine women you know gender and sex

43:51

are not connected we’ve learned that in the modern era but I think the more feminine energy is is more direct right

43:58

it’s like it’s more directly connecting it’s really fluid and it bonds through emotional Journeys it bonds through this

44:04

idea of hey can you be with me when I’m sad can you be with me when I’m angry can you be with me when I’m happy can

44:09

you be with me when I’m you know sexually turned on right like all the different data points all the different

44:15

like the whole Spectrum right the feminine really wants to feel connected in all of those whereas I think as men

44:21

right like we want to connect in Victory almost exclusively right we want to accomplish something together and to get

44:27

to Victory we go through Challenge and we Bond through challenge we’re much we’re we’re simpler in a lot of ways you

44:32

know so it can be difficult to connect to the feminine because you know we don’t like those other typees of

44:38

emotions we don’t like feeling anger we don’t like feeling sad we don’t like feeling lonely you know we don’t want to

44:44

connect in that we want to kill that and get back to feeling Victorious so I think it’s a really

44:50

common really common um you know male female Dynamic that happens yeah and and you know like you

44:56

mentioned earlier in the show like um from a Buddhist mindset or from a mindfulness mindset right um there might

45:03

even be a bit of not denial of the emotions themselves but but a stripping

45:10

of their power right so if I’m if I’m trying to develop a mindfulness uh

45:16

mindset um I think some of the traps I Fallen to as a man are saying okay well

45:24

um it it’s sort of stok in the the sense that okay well I’m just not going to sucb to sadness or to you know

45:32

depression or these sorts of things rather than um confronting them and sort of realizing what the feeling is and and

45:40

and getting over which is which is a healthy way of engaging with the emotion um and so I carry that over with my

45:46

other relationships right I go oh well because I’m denying sadness or or anger

45:52

or frustration um you should just deny that it exists too right and that’s it’s

45:57

just not the way that it is um so yeah I think that that’s where a big struggle comes in especially um depending on your

46:05

personality right it’s regardless of of gender or sex but but my personal disposition is to

46:10

compartmentalize and to sort of shrug off negative feelings and um sometimes

46:16

that’s not what what you need to connect with people right I think people sometimes just want to feel it together

46:22

right rather than um having it be solved which stuff cuz some people like I think

46:27

more masculine presenting people want it to be solved right we want to be like okay what do I do how do I handle this how do I go back to having fun you know

46:33

how do I go back to being happy and going back to the status quo um and it’s

46:38

difficult and and I think like you know I guess little uh soapbox here I think for for our female or feminine listeners

46:45

it’s like I think for a lot of men what we don’t tell the women in our lives is that that type of bonding is not natural

46:51

for us and it takes work right because I think guys like we can get burnt out on

46:57

that you know we we do it and we should do it and we need to do it for the women in our lives but often times we get it

47:02

takes an emotional toll whereas a more feminine presenting person I think gets charged up and connected and really fed

47:09

by that and that’s why we’re doing it I think a more masculine presenting person um can get really drained and you know

47:15

where I’ve seen relationships also fall apart is the guy that isn’t honest about what that costs and they end up building

47:20

up resentments or they end up you know being the nice guy right just kind of always saying yes or always like showing

47:26

up showing up showing up until one day they don’t right either have like an anger explosion or they just like leave in the night or something you know um

47:33

because I think I think open communication is critical we need to accept that we’re different again equal but different um and say like hey this

47:40

might be natural for you but it’s not for me and and I’m doing it as a gift right like this is me showing up for you

47:45

in a way yeah yeah and I’m definitely that guy and luckily my my wife is

47:51

perceptive enough to to realize it because I would never say it right that’s a that’s a flaw that I have but

47:57

you know she you know she’ll come home and she’ll she’ll tell me all about work or whatever right and yeah it’s exactly

48:03

like you you described I get really drained and then at the end she’ll say yeah sorry about all that I’ll say oh

48:08

it’s okay right you know you’re just trying tough your way through it right but after a while she starts to realize

48:14

no it’s not okay you know like it’s it’s I I understand that it’s difficult I’ll

48:20

try to keep it to things that that are important you know and that sort of thing and then so she was able to open a

48:27

line of communication and then we were able to to talk about it and come to an agreement on what the best way of handling it is but no yeah I totally

48:33

agree with what you’re you’re saying there yeah it’s super common right and I think by like telling your wife that

48:39

right you’re able to like open up and she knows you better you know because again like people only know what’s in

48:45

their own head until they hear it from somebody else um I’m curious do you have children I you said you’re married but do you have kids no no no kids for us

48:54

okay yeah I was curious about about fatherhood I’m CU if any ideas about fatherhood or about mentorship or about

48:59

this kind of other part of masculinity I think again we’re being called to lead in a more personal way you know in a

49:05

more loving familial way yeah you know um it’s interesting

49:11

like I mentioned at the beginning of the episode I had a complicated relationship with my dad you know where we were very

49:17

different but at the same time I I do think he was he was very good and um you know I’ve got nieces and nephews and and

49:24

Friends With Kids and um I’ve had you know my co-host on my podcast is is a mentor to me a father

49:31

figure and um you know there’s I joined the army a little bit later in life so there’s some guys that I’m sort of a

49:37

father figure to I think mentorship is a huge um part of of masculinity and you

49:43

know a lot of the the men that I’ve seen have a figure and and the ones who are

49:49

successful certainly have figures um but it’s difficult right because in the

49:54

Modern Age masculine or not there’s not really a space where uh people interact in an

50:02

intimate way across age ranges right and so for me to have um in older people you

50:10

know older men that they can mentor me is great for me to have younger guys that I can interact with and that I can

50:16

help guide them through some of their struggles and they can help sort of keep me engaged um in life it it’s really

50:23

important and it’s something that I think that might be one of the bigger problems that men struggle with today is

50:29

not having anybody outside their own age group to to either um guide them through the struggles they’re facing or keep

50:35

them engaged in in some of the U the other aspects of Life yeah I agree

50:40

completely you know and I think as men we’re being called and we should be called to be more nurturing you know but

50:47

I do think masculine nurturing and masculine love looks different than feminine love and I don’t think there’s really enough out there teaching guys

50:54

how to do it you know I there’s a ton of great stuff on mothering and on you know our traditional definition of love I

51:00

think are more feminine but when I think of masculine love and I’m curious with thought about this theory is it’s this idea of both setting the challenge and

51:07

then coaching the guy to get there so you’re kind of both like you know you’re both like the drill sergeant right and

51:13

the cheerleader at the same time um yeah yeah and I see that a lot um in in my

51:21

interactions right is this uh like you said it there it’s challenge right and I

51:27

think the challenge has a negative connotation associated with it right but I think challenge is different from

51:33

competition right you can you can challenge somebody and then collaborate with them on the goal which is what me

51:39

and my co-hosts do on our podcast every week right um we bring up these philosophical Concepts that we talk

51:44

about and we don’t always agree on things and when we don’t you know we’ll call the other guy out and he’ll think

51:49

about it and then he’ll either you know give a reason why his position was right or he’ll rethink it and agree with what

51:55

I said said and then he’ll propose something new and it’s a back and forth and like was you’re mentioning earlier

52:00

in the show it’s usually based around achieving some goal right you know

52:05

you’re you have a thing that you’re trying to accomplish a mission you’re trying to accomplish and you’re sort of challenging each other to take the next

52:11

step to get there I think that is what a lot of men’s relationships look like in

52:17

terms of mentoring and in ter terms of um you know um nurturing each other yeah

52:23

and I think there’s this level of you know more male intimacy of knowing the right level of challenge you know if if

52:29

you really know your Mentor or your mentee you know what their capacity is and you’re able to kind of design a

52:34

challenge that is just at the edge right K was saying earlier right where they fail 30% of the time it’s like just at

52:40

the edge but it doesn’t Inspire growth I think that is a really beautiful gift that we can give to other men in our

52:47

lives is helping them grow right just that inch at a time yeah and finding the

52:52

way to do that um based off the individual right because like we’re talking about there’s guys that are more

52:59

masculine guys that are more feminine or sensitive that that type of thing and um you know just never never challenging in

53:05

such a way that that it encourages the toxic behaviors right you but but in

53:11

ways that help help men grow together you know I think that’s important yeah

53:17

yeah so we’re moving towards the end of our show it’s been a great conversation went by super fast I’m curious as kind

53:22

of like a last message is anything you want to say to some of our listeners that are maybe you know connected with

53:27

what you’re talking about right or or want to develop masculinity or want to work on growing um what’s something that they can take away with

53:34

them yeah I think that you know what it boils down to is what we talked about

53:40

earlier in the show you know it’s that it’s the development of humility right

53:45

because out of humility is really where the strength and resilience that we’ve been talking about through the episode

53:51

comes from right it all ties together and so you you know being willing to to

53:56

admit that you don’t have all the answers or that you’re not the best at something that’s the way that you start

54:03

to find answers and you start to become better at something right that’s so that’s the way you become a man is by

54:09

admitting that the things that you don’t have and and having a game plan how to

54:15

get there you know I think that’s great yeah it’s like taking responsibility for everything in your life right and being like I’m going to grow I’m going to

54:21

become better um so Joel has been fantastic uh where can people learn more about you and see your podcast and your

54:28

music yeah so um the podcast is from nowhere to nothing um you can find it

54:33

pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts um it’s hosted at podbean um you can find my music just by searching

54:40

my name Joel buard uh my most recent album is um all we are but there’s a few

54:45

other things that are online and uh yeah for now that’s pretty much it awesome fantastic and those links will be in the

54:51

show notes if you want to check that out um so thank you again for joining us and thank you listeners for tuning in we’ll

54:57

see you next week another episode of men’s therapy [Music]

55:03

podcast thank you for joining your host mark aile on the men’s therapy podcast

55:08

be sure to tune in again live next Wednesday at 2: p.m. eastern time and 11:00 a.m. Pacific Time on The Voice

55:14

America health and wellness Channel and anywhere podcast are found to support the show leave a review on your favorite

55:20

podcast platform for more information or to apply to be a guest visit www.menstherapypodcast.com