Destigmatizing Male Trauma w/ Jocelyn Eve

Destigmatizing Male Trauma w/ Jocelyn Eve

January 10, 2024

In this episode our guest, Jocelyn Eve, will talk about male survivors of trauma. We’ll break down how toxic masculinity seeps into this world as well – with the only valid trauma victims being soldiers or first responders. Jocelyn aims to make space for men who have been victims of sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and physical abuse. Join us as we talk about this important subject.

Episode Transcript:

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[Music] Mark azoulay is an industry leader in

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Psychotherapy and men’s mental health he’s helped countless guys get back on their feet deepen their relationships

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and Excel in their lives now he’s taken all that he has learned and is sharing it with you in each episode Mark will

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interview an expert in the field of masculinity and men’s work we’ll cover topics such as emotional intelligence

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masculine identity anger management Financial Health trauma recovery marriage and divorce ethics and

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spirituality tune in and become a better man welcome back to the men’s therapy

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podcast I’m your host Mark aay and I’m here with Jocelyn Eve she’s a great friend of mine from the agpa the American group Psychotherapy Association

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uh she’s a therapist out of Cambridge and she works with men um specifically men that have suffered trauma Joselyn

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welcome to the show thanks so much great to be here Mark so I’m excited to talk with you because up until now we’ve

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talked with a lot of men that work with men and I’m interested in the female perspective of women who decide to work

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with men so in this first segment let’s start with your story what interested you about doing men’s work and getting

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into this type of group and this type of uh treatment I’m so glad you asked it’s

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been such an interesting journey I have been working mainly with female

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identified survivors for many many years now and when I think about what prompted

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this new men’s group um I mean I think a couple factors come to mind one is that

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I couple years ago inherited a mixed gender process group um with all adult

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trauma survivors and that’s been incredibly um moving and inspiring to me

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and it has made me drawn to create more spaces specifically for male survivors

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also a lot of the men in my practice are you know coping processing dealing with

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the long-term Legacy of kind of childhood adversity and traumas so it felt like it was something I was seeing

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very pervasively across the the folks that I was working with individually and I also think well so

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many things but like I went to a conference many years ago about youth offenders and I was really really struck

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by the kind of false dichotomy and siloing of people identifying as

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providers work with offenders versus victims perpetrators versus survivors and I I

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feel like yeah that sort of resonates with like a larger theme of why I feel

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so personally passionate about this work because I see in my practice and I’ve

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seen in my own life in my own relationships and family and Community how easy it is to get into false

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binaries and and to feel like we’re not more than the worst thing that we’ve ever done when in

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reality most of us don’t get through childhood or get through this life without encountering some kind of trauma

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and sometimes part of that journey is imp perpetrating or you know creating

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more harm or suffering or even abusing you know someone so I I find that a lot

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of the work I do with men is related to that sort of grappling of not yeah all

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the all the shame that comes with the trauma but then further shame and isolation and stigma that comes within

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being in a position of harming others yeah 100% it’s that old adage right like hurt people hurt people you know and a

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fair number of the guys that I work with are probably similar you know they often well let me take a step back right like

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and you probably can see this that men don’t go to therapy until their life is in chambles you know it’s often like a last ditch effort so I have a handful of

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clients that have you know unfortunately hit their spouse or hit their child you know only one once and of course I’m not

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condoning that but they have that Outburst they do that thing and then they’re scared right they’re scared

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they’re afraid they don’t want that to happen again and then oftentimes when you dig in it’s something that their

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parent used to do to them all the time right they were regularly beaten or they were you know physically abused all the

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time by their father or their mother so a lot of that shame and that stigma is like oh my God I don’t want to be my dad

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and he I did this thing where now I’m my dad I’m curious do you see that in the work that you do absolutely um that adage definitely

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Rings Rings true and I also I think it was Brian Stevenson who said we’re more

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than the worst thing that that we’re all more than the worst thing that we’ve ever done and I think that that that

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really Rings true when I think about the men I work with and the trauma and grief

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that they’re dealing with because it’s like not it’s hardly even represented in

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the media like they hardly even show this part of the The Human

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Experience um in like you know what we what we see in our phones and in the

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news and the advertising it it’s just striking to me I’m thinking about a particular film that came out this year

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about cults and and how one of my some of my clients were were watching and paying attention it was like a popular

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Netflix film and and to see their experience reflected kind of for maybe

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the first time was so activating and you might say trick ing but but really it

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was like the amount of female survivors I work with who bring in content all the

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time from sort of seeing their experiences reflected in the news and pop culture I think it’s just really

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really striking to me how alone um men feel with this work and so as a as a

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female identified cisgender clinician working with men it seems like it’s

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particularly poignant and and I say that knowing that many men have been abused than harmed by women so it’s not it’s

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not obviously all like one one way or the other that there are some people who particularly seek out um working with

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providers who represent their identities and others you know who they might feel feel safer um working with a a male

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therapist so I know that you obviously know all about this but when you when you said sort of about speaking with me

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I just feel like it’s important to name that like many more people are reaching

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out to my male colleague who’s co-leading this new group than they are with me and I don’t think that that’s a

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coincidence yeah I think people tend to gravitate towards likeness right I think

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it’s like a human nature type of thing um and you know we talked about it in a previous episode with Christina Dixon

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this idea that I think a lot of men struggle to work with female therapists because they don’t want to hurt them they don’t want to burden them they

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don’t want to have them um feel the pain that they feel they’re like this protector thing which is completely

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unwarranted right I mean a female therapist is like in some ways many more much more capable than the male client

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you know but I think as men we have that ingrained um I’m curious in in your life Justin like did you grow up with a lot

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of male friends or did you gravitate towards this work or did you interact with male survivors in a personal

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way that’s a great great question because I think that that contributes as well to why at this moment in my career

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I’m drawn to working with men I think that because of all the work that I’ve done in my life and in my career like

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understanding the maybe like patriarchy and understanding and grappling with like the me too movement and traumatic

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experiences I’ve had where men have been involved um I feel like that has allowed

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me to show up in a really solid way for my male clients and I don’t think that

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that’s necessarily the case for everyone in the field who you know aren’t

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necessarily um seeing this as a as a social justice issue and I I realize that that’s my bias that’s kind of the

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lens that I bring to the work but it it does feel like it’s an access issue and

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so I was interested I listened to your conversation with Christina and it was so fascinating to think about like the

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numbers that it’s actually really hard to find like male therapists and then

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it’s I’ve done a lot of work like I said with female survivors and it’s not that hard to find groups that are for female

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survivors why why aren’t people leading groups I’m specifically for men or for male survivors and I think it goes to

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your question about sort of why aren’t therapists wanting to to do that and I

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think that it comes back to like doing our own work and so yeah I feel very proud and like humbled to get to hold

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space and to show up in this way it feels like a yeah real like passion area and we we

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considered doing this group for for women like it was interesting just to sort of grapple with like who and why

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and like what what do what do we have to offer at this moment and it really like boiled down to this is a super

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underserved population and we know it’s going to take a lot more Outreach and a lot more effort but we want to we want

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to work with men and so I the last person I spoke to this last week on a podcast he was like I wanted to work

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with men and only women were reaching out and and so I thought thought I’d share that with you as someone who’s you

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know done such a successful job reaching men that it’s not easy yeah it’s definitely not easy I

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think a lot of men like I said are are very um anti- theapy or they see it as

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weakness and I think a lot of therapy doesn’t work for men also right like I’m not going to put on the guys on all the

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guys plate like I think the idea of like sitting and talking deeply about your feelings is not how we connect as guys

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and having a therapist that is like this Blank Slate which is what we’re taught to be is not how we connect as men right

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like just sitting and listening is like very foreign and honestly like kind of boring to us like we want conversation

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that’s Dynamic that’s bantery that’s back and forth where we challenge each other where we joke right this idea that

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like you know um the phrase that I have is like irreverent with profound moments of depth right like a lot of male

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conversation of guys that know each other very well it’s a lot of laughing it’s a lot of joking it’s a lot of like you know japing at each other but then

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every once in a while you drop into the real and I think male intimacy and male conversation especially without any

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women present is really different as I’d assume and again I’m not a woman so I don’t know but I’d assume like female

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conversation when there’s no men in the room is also very very different um and I think therapy has taken a slant

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towards this kind of more feminine type of conversation um and intimacy style I’m curious your your thoughts on that

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yeah another perspective related to that is just I feel sometimes that I

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represent my male clients Partners or female friends that they are lacking an

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intimacy with so being able to talk about kind of sexual disfunction or

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dissatisfaction in their lives in a way that they’re not accessing socially or

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interpersonally feels like something that that they really relish and and really open open to I’m really amazed

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kind of going to your earlier point about what brings men to therapy like it’s so fascinating to me that it’s it’s

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so it very much feels like something’s not working and it’s it is like a l I

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think you said this in your other episode it’s like a last resort like um for some people they’ve already tried

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therapy in college or um yeah they their past girlfriend recommended that they

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they do this or they failed several marriages whatever it is like that it feels like they’re not they know that

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drinking or whatever kind of coping strategy they’re doing is is not enough and I’m really like a Amazed by like the

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courage that it takes to say okay let me let me give this a shot absolutely yeah

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I think a lot of men um we start physically like we start like oh I’m gonna go to the gym right or I’m going to change my diet or I’m going to change

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my job um right we make those kind of much more external very physical changes

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before it’s like I’m GNA talk to somebody because the idea I think and I’m actually interested this for you like I think a lot of men and I can

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throw myself in that category until I really worked with a skilled therapist like talking hasn’t helped us right

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talking to other people has either been traumatizing or it’s been thrown back in our face or it’s caused us to get

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bullied or we’ve met with somebody who has an unsympathetic ear sometimes our parents right like talking doesn’t help

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um whereas I think women has had have had much more experience where talking does help I’m curious if you hear that with the guys that that you work

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with in the documentary The Mask we live in or something like that it’s by the same creators of misrepresentation they

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talked about how when little girls and little boys come home from school um the

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girls get a c I don’t know 101 15 minutes talking to a caregiver a parent about their feelings and the little boy

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is told to go go sweat it off so I I do think that it’s very evident that the

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level of comfort and familiarity the trust to just begin to build a

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therapeutic relationship is definitely markedly different in my clinical experience um so far um I also just

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wanted to to to kind of reflect on yeah that that sentiment that for men they’re

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they’re they should be okay and that something didn’t bother them so much that they should move move on that

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there’s just so much like dismissing of the male experience even as like guys

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grow older that I think that that that really comes through when they show up for therapy and there’s so little self

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validation or affirmation that they’ve been through anything that could explain why they’re struggling now right yeah I

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think the the superpower and the curse of the masculine is that we can compartmentalize right because like

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biologically we had to do that we had to put in a box so we can kill that deer or so we can like kill that person or we can do whatever right we can

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defend the people that we love but now in the modern world like that is really

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kicking Us in the ass right because I think our our our impulse is to compartmentalized right shove it down

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and then move forward no matter what again it’s not all bad but in the emotional relationship in the emotional world it’s not appropriate it doesn’t

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work anymore I mean I’ll just quickly say that with right now with another War

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being fought like it just seems like such an example for like we can’t talk

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about men and Trauma and and group work without thinking about like what we’re

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doing to to so many men and and families right now with all the all the wars that it makes sense that literally it’s not

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just evolutionary like it’s happening right now that we’re kind of dehumanizing people and exposing them to

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so such endless violence and Trauma right yeah and often men whether they be

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soldiers or First Responders or even dads right dads and end Partners you

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know oftentimes we do do this like man up muscle up thing where we put in the Box we move forward and then we don’t

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feel the repercussions for years if not decades afterwards you know and I imagine those are the guys that you work

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with where they put it in the Box as a child and now it’s coming up very much so yeah it often isn’t I

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think till people people are out of their family’s homes you know far far from the trauma that it begins to kind

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of emerge those memories and and feelings or when they’re in a new intimate relationship maybe it comes up

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sexually or comes up in the form of cheating or violence as you as you name so it’s very much feels like a reactive

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thing and and that’s understandable most people come to therapy and they say I don’t want to feel anxiety I don’t want to feel depressed I want to be happy um

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so it’s a very I think wholesome and human motivation and yet we know that the work of traum trauma recovery takes

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time yeah I think that’s a great topic talk about in our next segment kind of how trauma manifests in the adult world

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and how guys specifically can work through it and start to heal it and some of the work that you do in the trauma groups that you run um because I think a

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lot of guys like you said we don’t want to admit that stuff happened to us you know um so being able to diagnose the

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problem does mean I want to hear L to the guys out there like that means that there’s a solution right like if you can diagnose a problem then you can fix it

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there’s nothing wrong with you that you have a problem it means that okay cool there’s a pathway for Hope um so we’re going to move to our first commercial

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break when we come back we’ll talk a little bit more about how it manifests in the present moment uh thanks for tuning in and we’ll see you on the other

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www.men therapy podcast.com now back to the men’s therapy

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podcast welcome back to the show I’m your host Mark aay and I’m here with joclyn Eve she’s a psychotherapist out

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of Cambridge that works with men and specifically men trauma survivors um she runs groups that help them to heal

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through the traumas of their childhood so Jocelyn I think we should just start right there right like how does trauma

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manifest when the man is an adult right say something happen to them um how does it start to show up you know 20 30 maybe

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even 40 years later well it’s interesting the way you

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formulated the question because it seems like when I think about the the men I work with

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it’s it’s been a long history of of the trauma I think showing up and being masked and not recognized and kind of as

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I was saying in the earlier segment kind of minimized and denied and repressed not by the men necessarily exclusively

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but by their partners and families and teachers and coaches and then oftentimes

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as we become adults who have traum traumatic childhood experiences we’re further at risk for being ret

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traumatized so we find ourselves in kind of codependent or abusive relationships as adults or in toxic workplaces or

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incarcerated or involved with you know the criminal justice system so uh yeah

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that’s sort of my initial response yeah you know you talked about different Arenas and I kind of want to

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go through them you know uh I think the obvious one and this is problematic that this is the obvious one for male is like

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physical right like it shows up with them abusing physically abusing somebody else you know um or for a lot of men um

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I seen a high correlation between like obesity like morbid obesity and Trauma right this idea of kind of putting a

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buffer between themselves and the world you know or emotionally eating I think it shows up as as addiction um but I’m

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curious you talked about the sexual Dimension which I’m interested and also like the mental emotional Dimension so what are some other symptoms that uh a

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man might have knowing that they might be caring trauma with them yeah I I was

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just listening to a training last night because I’m a total nerd as you you know um and it was about borderline

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personality disorder and how historically that has been commonly kind of stigmatized as something that women

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are diagnosed with and how that’s actually not what the research has shown and I I was so interested to to hear

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more about that because that definitely reflects what what I’m seeing that possible impacts of trauma it might show

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up as fatigue headaches it can be physical in terms of teeth grinding GI

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stomach issues sleep difficulties uh chronic pain PTSD that there’s so many so many ways

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that it shows up and I think that unfortunately as a society we we often

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come across you know trauma in men when when it comes to looking at sort of who

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who’s represented in you know the incidents of gun violence or who’s you know getting in trouble for domestic

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violence or you know it just name name the kind of headline and Men seem to

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keep keep coming up so I feel like there’s a a real deep um yeah denial and

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and stigma that that really feel so pervasive and I I guess I wanted to underscore this because it’s like even

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in the field and that is such an issue and that that fuel sort of my passion

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for doing this this Outreach and doing this work so we can create more awareness that that the our brothers and

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fathers and grandfathers and uncles and male friends are are really many of them are really suffering and I also don’t

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want to I know you’re not saying this but I don’t want to conflate that like all all men are like you know obviously

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not physically abusive or anything but there is an interesting overlap when I

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think about kind of the me too movement and and men who are struggling with boundaries and and navigating sexual

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intimacy and just negotiating needs and relationships at a really like basic level um many of them have really grown

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up in invalidating environments or not been a good fit for what their caregivers or parents could provide them

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emotionally and I think that that shows up a lot in the one-on-one but also as a female group therapist it shows up a lot

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in my group clients yeah you know I’m really curious about the social justice lens you know

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and where I go to is when I think of okay so let me take a step back right because I need to talk about women first

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I think women have a lot of slur words that are obviously used against them right some words like bossy right or

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or or you know domineering or nagging right like these words that are like attached to women that are very

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very harmful so I want to I’m going to talk about some of the men words right but I don’t want to negate the female words right um the men words when I

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think about some of the male words the words come to mind are like evil right or bad right or like chauvinist right

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things like that um you don’t often hear of like an evil woman but you hear of like an evil man and when you think

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about perpetrators right there’s often this idea like oh there there’s evil out there in the world right or there’s

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there a bad man or something like that um and I like that you bring in the trauma lens because I think it adds more Nuance to that right like these people

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are not born evil or bad or like demonic or devilish right but there’s more going

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on there um I’m curious what you think about that idea um and if you see that in some of the guys that you work with

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kind of breaking through that stigma of them just like being a bad man versus being a traumatized man you

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know yeah I absolutely see that a lot and I think about it as like that kind of old school exercise about the looking

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at the box that we’re put in and like what what does it mean to be a man and to look at like how men are holding

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themselves up to these these standards of what they were taught that really narrow definition of masculinity so I

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know I’m preaching to the choir here but that it kind of shows up in hearing their sense of perceived failure in

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their lives uh you know whether it’s professionally or romantically um

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feeling like they’re not not able to to to do enough for their partner or their friends it’s just like a real deep sense

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of inadequacy yeah and I think of like the traditional masculine role which I think is still relevant today is of like that

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protector and that provider right it’s like that guard it’s like you’re both the guard of the castle and like the

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King right that like you like give out the gifts and you protect the um the gate and I think a lot of guys are

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always ranking themselves right like we love as men I think we love and we respond well to hierarchy right that’s

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what the patriarchy is right it’s something that like a layer that we put over the world and I think when men feel like like you said they’re a loser

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they’re at the bottom of the hierarchy they have nothing to offer they can really spiral quickly um because they

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often feel alone too you know I think that that’s what we’re seeing with the incel culture online that there’s like

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such a dir of men’s mentorship and and support and I know you’re doing such amazing work to Foster more more

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community and kind of alternative therapeutic settings for this bonding and this healing to happen because why

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why else are people bonding over the Internet about yeah their their kind of

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victimization as men it seems like one of the some of the people I’m speaking to who fall into that kind of

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demographic are are now like yeah I just I just want to know what it’s like to connect with other men in like a healthy

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way where I can get support but it’s like actually I don’t know Ser serving me and like

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what I value in life like there’s a there’s a recognition of I think some of the toxicity but like a lack of access

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to spaces and and mentors and Elders who can offer that kind of support yeah so

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I’m curious to hear more about like the journey and evolution of the social justice movement as it relates to men especially men’s mental health right

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because I think as it was getting launched it turned off a lot of men because you know specifically straight

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white cisgendered men were seen as like the enemy or they perceived as like an enemy so I think a lot of men like were

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like whoa I don’t want to get anywhere near this this thing is like demonizing me I don’t want to talk about it um but

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what I see and I’m curious if you agree with this because I think it’s a little bit of a edgy statement is I think specifically cisgendered white men need

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therapy the most because cisgendered white culture is very isolationist it’s

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very individualist right it doesn’t have family structure it doesn’t have you know mentorship baked in it doesn’t have

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any of these things that you know even more minority cultures do have that are seem to be more family focused more

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Community oriented more even faith-based right like the cisgendered white man is

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really an island um and I think they need a lot of support in the therapeutic

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World um which is wild right because from the greater social movement they are often seen as the most privileged

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where I think in the mental health world they’re one of the least you know I’m curious your your opinion on that so

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interesting yeah I feel like we could go in so so many directions but I’m thinking about access again in terms of

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not just like finding a therapist that’s a good fit maybe accepts your insurance or that you can afford but I I do think

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that it’s striking how many folks have reached out for this new group who can’t

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who are on disability or you know they for whatever reasons can’t can’t afford

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or aren’t comfortable paying um so that there’s a lot of layers to that but thinking about this topic as a social

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justice issue and like what it means as a business owner as a private practice therapist to make space for the

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marginalization of of why and not to put it on men as like you know they’re just

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not willing to to pay or invest in their healing like to recognize some of the ways that they are on the On The Fringe

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of of society like it’s just really hard I think to expect people to pay

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for like just our healthare system is so is so broken and so I don’t know I guess

29:03

I’m still kind of figuring out how how best to address that because it it

29:09

feels unfair like I I get why there are so many like free resources for female

29:16

survivors and I never thought I would say this because for years I’ve been like struck by how much financial

29:21

support and funding there are for veterans and even Judith Herman’s iconic book Trum and recovery you know talks

29:28

all about sort of the way childhood sexual abuse and incest are sort of really that it’s a public health issue

29:35

that no one wants to talk about and and so I’ve been really puzzled for years about how yeah how it feels like male

29:43

survivors in some ways H have more recognition but only War trauma and and

29:48

so yeah I’m kind of all over the place but just trying to emphasize the the fact that I don’t I’m still kind of

29:54

figuring out how how kind of the stigma of male trauma fits into maybe the

30:01

larger social justice I think agenda like it feels to me again like maybe if

30:08

you asked me this in a in a month I would probably have some statement to make but it’s too dichot it’s like I

30:15

don’t want to make like a binary statement about it so I think my main message or response is around the

30:23

complexity and like of course we’re speaking in generalizations but really to to allow for the really complex

30:31

traumatic histories of of these men that that can’t be put into a box as perpetrator or or victim but rather

30:39

these are there’s someone reached out and was like does my trauma as a you know Indian man count for your group

30:46

like thr of the sense that like where do they belong and it is my trauma real or

30:51

valid yeah I I love you talked about that because that is something that I think a lot of male Trump survivors

30:58

really struggle with and you mentioned the war trauma thing and that’s also that toxic masculinity where it’s like I

31:03

think as men especially in like Western culture or or culture that I think experienced World War II quite frankly

31:08

right in some way shape or form it’s not all the west but anyone that experienced World War II there’s this idea that the only male trauma that counts is war

31:15

right maybe you know in the modern era we can make room for like if you’re a firefighter or you’re like a paramedic

31:21

right if you’re like a first responder or a police officer if it’s like some level of like PTSD witnessing vience

31:27

like that is you know quote like masculine trauma right like you saw people die or you killed somebody right

31:33

but when you get to this more subtle trauma um more Insidious in many ways right like you know being bullied at

31:40

school right or having a you know castrating mother right or you know um being beat at home or going through a

31:47

childhood illness right like being disabled as a child or you know even losing a job or or getting divorced

31:53

right like all these other things I think as men and I think the society also really downplays that right because

32:00

it’s the idea of like well you weren’t in war so like what do you have to complain about like look at your grandfather who was a freaking you know

32:06

paratrooper at Normandy or whatever right or like look at you know for the for the Jewish population look at your grandparents that survived the Holocaust

32:12

right like we often get this kind of like trauma comparison where those little more emotional things I think get

32:20

erased this is sort of a heavy note to to share but like the the reality is

32:26

that men are completely suicide at 3.88 times more than women and they’re

32:32

less likely to seek help more prone to suffering in silence and I think that we’re sort of making a a case for why

32:39

why that is and it seems like I’m just struck even hearing you like how even in

32:46

the local hospital scene here in Boston it’s like there’s a women’s trauma program at you know mlan and then

32:52

there’s like yeah there’s stuff for First Responders but what what about for all the men I work with who have you

32:58

know sexual abuse histories and it’s it’s like I’m grappling right now

33:03

hearing you with how emasculating it is to to come forward and and like when men

33:09

are supposed to you know be the domination they not the one who initiates sexual activity and so the

33:15

fact that men can get raped or or incested or abused by women is is so

33:21

societally Taboo it’s very taboo right and and I think as men like you said

33:27

either trained to just shrug it off and be like no that didn’t happen right or to kind of like lie and be like oh yeah

33:33

like it was consensual I wanted that blah blah blah right or just never ever talk about it like bury it really really

33:39

deep and just be like you know what like I think men do a lot of Separation with a lot of the guys I work with they’re like I was I am not who I was as a kid I

33:46

hear that all the time right there’s like a clear break usually around adolescence of like I am no longer that

33:51

person and I am now like this man and that person is like not relevant to me which you know as therapist we know is

33:57

like just 100% not true but I think as men we we do that like cleave we do that really big cut um to move through so we

34:04

have to move to our next commercial break here um when we come back I want to hear more specifics about your group specifically about how it runs and the

34:11

connections that are there and then speaking to any guys if you are listening and you’re like hey I might be

34:16

a good fit for this group or I might have some complex trauma a place that they can start um whether if they don’t

34:21

feel ready to reach out to a therapist yet where can they start to um work through some of these issues and then

34:26

get a handle on it so um hang on in there and we’ll see you on the other

34:31

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podcast men therapy. online or visit www.men theapy podcast.com

36:34

now back to the men’s therapy podcast welcome back to the show I’m

36:40

here with Joslyn Eve and we’re talking about male survivors of trauma um so Justin I was curious a little bit of a

36:45

sidebar but I imagine in the groups that you run you’re the only woman in the room correct that’s correct right like you’re

36:53

the facilitator and you have a male co- facilitator so I’m just curious like from a personal SL professional whatever

36:58

standpoint what is that like to be um the only female in a room of of men

37:03

doing this really hard and and courageous necessary work well I should edit that actually my

37:10

the group I took over is mixed gender and it’s really interesting to have a mixed gender group because so often we

37:17

do separate um you know for all sorts of reasons groups into a more homogeneous

37:23

population but I actually feel really excited by that type of trauma group

37:30

work that is mixed gender so it is new actually for me to be in a group with

37:36

exclusively male identified survivors but I I suspect that yeah because we

37:43

have a mixed gender co-leadership model um that there will probably be lots of

37:48

Dynamics related to people’s respective histories what their relationships are like with their mothers or caregivers

37:55

and um where we’re very much like anticipating that it’ll be interesting to have two of us and that’s why each of

38:03

um Dr Gladstone and I are both reaching out oneon-one um with anyone who’s interested in the group so they can get

38:09

a sense of what it’s like to be with me and what it’s like to to be with him again not making any assumptions but

38:15

giving them the chance to to share if there’s anything particularly triggering about having a female therapist in the

38:21

room or anything that you know might come up that we can anticipate and support them as leaders and also

38:28

obviously as a group yeah I I think that’s really important I mean one of the work that is

38:33

um aspirational for me I right now I’m building this whole men’s you know program right but the work that I’d love to be doing in 10 years is actually

38:39

gender reconciliation work so finding a partner or finding multiple partners that um are running women’s programs and

38:46

then starting to do more mixed gender and more kind of like Mi mixed Retreats because I think that there is so much

38:52

work to be done there and I think there’s so much power in having um you know people of all genders that have

38:58

done work already then come back together and be like okay how do we fix that um so all that to say is I imagine

39:05

as you as a female facilitator you’re going to be holding a lot of that gender reconciliation right you’re going to be holding a lot of those projections um

39:11

that These Guys these guys might have on women yeah it’s hard it is hard I’d

39:17

imagine anyone listening who does work with with trauma whether it’s personally or professionally like we can’t and are

39:24

not meant to hold this stuff alone so I do a lot of my own work and get a lot of

39:30

supervision and consultation I’m so grateful for this opportunity and connection with you to continue to to

39:36

build that relationship but just thinking about what that’s like it’s it’s challenging and it’s interesting in

39:42

the mixed gender setting um to see sort of some of the female

39:47

clients notice or stand up for me or feel protective of me when some of that

39:53

um anger or dismissiveness or kind of internalized misogyny comes through and

39:58

I’m very much you know early career here so I’d say it’s it’s definitely a

40:03

learning Edge how to like continue to hold that space so that I can invite the

40:09

aggression and I can invite that trauma to get reenacted in a safe enough therapeutic way um so so far doing well

40:17

but it’s definitely like it’s painful it’s painful to see how failed people

40:23

have been by other humans like so much work is being exposed to Super

40:29

disturbing dehumanizing traumatic content so just wanted to emphasize like

40:35

yeah trauma happens in relationships healing does too and we got to do a lot of consultation and resourcing of

40:42

ourselves so that I can have that emotional presence when that anger or aggression or um yeah whatever whatever

40:50

those feelings are from people’s past experiences are coming at me like I I want to invite that that’s that’s what

40:55

the therapy relationship is all about if you can’t do it with your therapist where can you 100% yeah and like you

41:02

said you’re going to get a lot of that anger and pain and all that kind of Gunk that’s been you know stuck down there

41:08

for a long time and I think it just yeah it’s really Brave that you’re standing and be able to do that because you know

41:13

as much as I promote men working with men I do think especially in cases of trauma it’s critical to do it with a

41:20

female um you know to like work through some of that stuff and be able to get that experience um that kind of like

41:27

corrective experience right of like oh wow like there is a female authority figure that can hold me I can accept

41:32

love from a woman you know um something that a lot of my men talk about I’m curious if you see this is they talk

41:38

about every time they go through a breakup right like a part of their heart closes so the next subsequent woman that

41:46

they’re in connection with then we’re talking you know of course like um uh heterosexual heteronormative right um

41:52

but every next relationship they love that woman less and less and less and

41:58

less right because those things never get healed for a lot of them you know by

42:03

the time they get to the person that they maybe end up life partnering with the leip can feel very flimsy and very service level because they don’t they

42:10

never loved as fully as when they were a teenager or when they were in college or when they were a young adult you know um

42:16

because they don’t they don’t I think as men we don’t know how to work through that you know so I think being able to work through some of those intimacy

42:21

barriers with a female therapist is is crucial is 100% critical to

42:27

Healing absolutely yeah I’m thinking about all the difficulties people have once they’re out of school and like

42:33

making friends as an adult too and and how like if I had a message for for any

42:39

men listening it’s like you’re not alone I I really encourage people to there’s

42:45

so many amazing free resources online on social media um there’s also a lot of

42:50

terrible resources out there but but to look for spaces and people and opportunities to share and connect

42:57

authentically and I’m not going to pretend like it’s easy out there and I know it’s not especially with online

43:03

dating and all the like traumatic stuff that we’re living through right now but that there are people like the two of us

43:10

who want to be there and want to be a bridge and a community Builder and that

43:15

that you’re not alone um that this trauma happens um mental illness happens

43:21

where we’re all going to encounter different kind of losses and and sorrows in life but where we can we can support

43:28

each other and have that burden be even just a little bit lighter have someone shine a light in the darkness that’s

43:34

what it’s all about I that’s really well said and and let’s dig into a little bit more so if we have aale listeners that

43:40

um connect with this where should they start yeah so welcome to reach out to me

43:46

on my website as well as on social media I’m on there um I would say that the the

43:52

group is still we’re still enrolling and speaking speaking to folks and we’re getting a lot of interest so I’m happy

43:59

or Dr Gladstone Adam is is glad to speak to anyone if you feel more comfortable reaching out to him I would say the

44:05

first step is yeah to to reach out um if you’re just looking for a therapist or a

44:11

support group in your own area Psychology today is an excellent resource hello Alma is another good one

44:18

I’ll share in maybe the show notes some particular male Survivor resources that I recommend um but I also wanted to make

44:25

a point to say in terms of the group that we’re leading that some of the the goals are to

44:31

incorporate psycho education to incorporate internal family systems and

44:36

to incorporate a space for processing so that’s not something that I’ve seen done

44:43

really really before and we’re really trying to you know have a structure and have like a plan here while also making

44:50

space for the unique and individual courageous men who are reaching out to show up for this opportunity and making

44:57

sure that it’s a good fit means we’re doing a lot of a lot of screening and a lot of conversations to to set people up

45:03

for success to support them and identifying what is your particular goal right now in your recovery what do you

45:09

hope to get from this group because otherwise how are we going to know if this is the right fit or if this is helping you so we have to know where

45:15

we’re starting um so really the the kind of recruitment process the the kind of

45:20

re first step is you know getting to know me and and Adam and seeing if it feels like you know we could be part of

45:27

your your team of support yeah I think that’s really great I love that you have like a personalized

45:32

touch with it you know um I think that is at least I found one of the benefits of running prior practice groups is that

45:37

I can actually keep my group small and I can spend the time required on each of my clients when I was in the agency world you know I ran a lot of groups but

45:44

they were you know frankly a lot lower quality because there was a lot going on I didn’t have time to like really

45:50

personalize it you know there were often like you know 20 30 people um so I think having a smaller group

45:56

something that that I would add for guys that are working with trauma you know because we talked guys start physically

46:02

so I would encourage the guy that feels like there’s something going on is actually like really start working out

46:08

or start doing yoga um start doing any kind of like like mindbody connection

46:14

exercise taichi stretching calisthenic something that like you’re actually moving very slow and purposefully um

46:20

something that I experienced when I was you know doing a chunk of my trauma healing was I would have emotions in my

46:26

body you know so I would be I would get into a place where I that I’ve ignored for a while and I would start running or

46:32

start lifting or start stretching and I would feel really sad you know or I would have like a memory come up from my

46:38

childhood or I would all of a sudden feel like really like gross and nauseated and disgusted and stuff that

46:44

like didn’t fit with what I was doing right I was like literally doing a forward fold or literally trying to like

46:49

do pigeon pose and open up my pelvis or something right um and I think that there is this really critical mind BL

46:55

Body Connection piece that can sometimes get overlooked and I think as guys like there’s a whole world there you know as

47:01

physical as we can be and body that we can be there’s something different of treating your body as like a a pet or

47:08

like as a as something to protect versus treating it as a machine or a robot that you just use to like go conquer the

47:14

world I’m so glad you you said that we actually both Adam and I are really big into mindfulness based practices so we

47:22

likely will start each group and I do this with my other group with a couple minutes especially in the virtual

47:28

therapy world like we could just be like click click click click oh suddenly I’m here so like how do we sort of feel more

47:34

embodied and help us to transition from our morning events or whatever meetings

47:40

we just came from into this like more intentional therapeutic space where you can do some dearmoring so I do like a

47:48

good workout metaphor and thinking about like what are the like maybe not 10 pound weights but what what is something

47:54

that you know feels do able and I always like to invite people to make a choice you know you can keep your camera on you

48:00

can turn it off I’m just going to take a couple moments to orient myself and like notice where my body is on the chair

48:08

even if you could just make yourself 5% more comfortable like you know grab a sip of water what are the little micro

48:14

things that we can do to tune into our bodies because trauma is in our bodies

48:20

the body does keep scores so I I agree that talking is very accessing our

48:26

emotions is very difficult to do if we are dissociated and living outside of our bodies and frankly our society

48:34

really really reinforces that and our apps and our technology our devices

48:39

really do a great job of keeping us Doom scrolling and addicted to being out of

48:44

our bodies So Adam and I are very much like excited to invite each other you

48:50

know invite the group to to dip their toes in that like mindfulness Waters of like can I can I just you know just a

48:58

little bit try this on just for like one minute even if they you know people have lots of bad experiences maybe being told

49:05

or trying to force themselves to meditate but that it’s really about just checking in with what’s present can I

49:12

make space for whatever Parts um wounded or childhood parts are are activated

49:19

coming into this group and can can that be welcome and can I make some like

49:24

invitation that whatever comes up here I’m not going to take action and and exit the zoom room but I’m going to try

49:30

to put my feelings into words and um I know that that’s a lot to ask of people

49:36

and it’s it’s remarkable like seeing what happens when people build those bridges and get to connect with their

49:42

peers in a way that frankly like we can’t do as therapists or coaches like there’s magic that happens in groups

49:49

that like we can’t create when it’s like a therapeutic professional it has to happen between people years yeah 100%

49:57

right and I think like to just underline that before we wrap up I think as men a lot of us have really good

50:03

meters and I will tell you as a therapist and as a group facilitator the leader there is a level of

50:09

right there’s a level of performatives there’s a level of us doing a thing right there’s a level of us like doing

50:15

interventions right like like we are intentional but what we do that’s what you’re paying us for but with your other members there’s no and I think

50:22

like as men we need guys that we can talk that it’s no right so as a facilitator what I do and I definitely

50:29

know you do JN it’s like our job is to like build connection right and facilitate the conversations so you can

50:35

get that real authentic thing with people that you can trust because they’re just like you right they’re in the same seat that you are in um so our

50:41

role is not to like be a guru or to like you know Enlighten you or whatever it’s to create connection within the group

50:48

yeah absolutely and and during those one-on-one consultations we get a chance to find out like what might come up for

50:54

you in group like what your experiences been like with other men or with bullying or in your workplace or family

51:01

system like what can we anticipate because it it is hard and it is also so

51:06

rewarding when people start to make those connections and it’s easy to judge people when you show up in a group and

51:12

be like I’m I’m not like any of these guys or like this is I’m the only one who has this experience and then you

51:18

know little by little it’s like you you don’t realize that sounds cliche but we’re all more similar than we are

51:23

different and so I really I know that my presence as a female leader matters and

51:29

as you sort of pointed out it’s it’s really about the other group members and can Adam and I kind of get out of the

51:34

way and Foster a space where people can connect and that like I can throw out my

51:40

agenda or my therapeutic kind of techniques and strategies yes that’s like important for fostering safety but

51:47

it’s really about the wisdom and the resources that people who have survived trauma are incredibly resilient and I

51:54

did want to note before we finish like post-traumatic growth is is real and that that was something that began to be

52:01

researched in the 1990s and I know that it might seem like a poly Ana phenomenon

52:08

but I see it all the time and I I think that that’s what prompts me to want to do this work is seeing what that’s been

52:13

like in my own life to have gone through the fire to have risen above it and to

52:19

be able to have a new appreciation of life um to have deeper more meaningful intimate relationships with others

52:26

uh to feel like a sense of spiritual connection interconnectedness with the world like I I don’t wish trauma upon

52:33

anyone and some of the most beautiful and inspiring and resilient people who I’ve encountered in life have gone

52:39

through really ugly things and that’s really beautiful and well said so as we’re wrapping up here JN where can

52:45

people find you online they want to know more information about you or about this group yeah so my website is Joselyn Eve

52:52

J CE l y nve . and there’s a section for

52:57

groups um you can contact me through the email form and I would love to hear from

53:02

anyone listening love to know what’s been helpful and any questions people have um or if you just want to introduce yourself fantastic and that’s upful all

53:10

be in the show Notes too so thank you all for tuning in and we’ll see you next week another episode of men’s therapy

53:16

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53:22

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