In this episode of the Men’s Therapy Podcast returning guest Melissa Barbash is talking directly to the dads out there. We make the case for dads to go to therapy to heal the wounds and trauma of the past.
Intro: [00:00:00] Mark Azulay is an industry leader in psychotherapy and men’s mental health. He’s helped countless guys get back on their feet, deepen their relationships, and excel in their lives. Now he’s taken all that he has learned and is sharing it with you. In each episode, Mark will interview an expert in the field of masculinity and men’s work.
We’ll cover topics such as emotional intelligence, masculine identity. Anger management, financial health, trauma recovery, marriage and divorce, ethics, and spirituality. Tune in and become a better man.
Mark: Welcome back to the men’s therapy podcast. I’m here with returning guest, Melissa Barbash. Melissa, welcome back.
Melissa Barbash: Thank you. I’m happy to be here.
Mark: So you were a guest on from the ashes, I think like two or three times. So it’s awesome that you’re on the new show.
Melissa Barbash: Yes, I know. I’m excited to see what it’s all about. I’ve listened to a couple of talk to a couple people, [00:01:00] but I’m excited to see what it’s all about.
Mark: Yeah, I mean, it’s basically the same thing.
It’s the same thing, but I’m just like, focusing more kind of on men’s issues and working with men specifically. I think from the ashes was more of like, personal stories of guests, which are valuable, but I think. But what I got feedback from is that the listeners wanted more kind of value for them, right?
More kind of education and understanding. Um, and with the rebrand of men’s therapy online, I figure it’s a good opportunity to kind of do it all in one.
Melissa Barbash: Is your, um, demographic people who like identify as cisgender male or people who identify as, um, men, is it primarily younger men, older men? I just want to kind of.
You might break down, but I kind of wanted to understand that a little bit.
Mark: We have some of that. I mean, I think it’s primarily cis gendered men. Um, we tend to have, it tends to be skewed, like, 25 to 55 is what we’re seeing. Okay. Um, [00:02:00] we do have a couple of guests lined up. They’re going to talk more about the queer experience.
And I think that’s an important part of it, right? Because it’s not a binary, you know, and it’s like, you know, masculinity and maleness is changing rapidly and. People can take that label on, so we’re not excluding that. In fact, it’ll be some couple episodes I’m really excited about in the future that will dive directly into that, but from our data, it’s mostly cisgendered men in America.
Melissa Barbash: Okay, that’s helpful. Just kind of helpful with my topic and also just for future reference to kind of to know where the podcast is going or who’s going to be on and kind of what the experience will be like.
Mark: Yeah, and to be clear, right with you and the listeners, like, I’m interviewing, you know, men and women and and all kinds of people, right?
Like, the focus is on male listeners, but there’s a lot of value, right? Everywhere. Um, and that’s pretty kind of like, why do you want? Because I know you work a lot with women, right? Women in relation, heterosexual relationships with men. Oftentimes those men are addicts, or they suffer from mental illness, and [00:03:00] the women are trying to cope with that.
Right. And work through that. And I see that so often in therapy, right? It’s like, the guy doesn’t go to therapy, right? Doesn’t go to help. And the partner ends up in therapy. And it’s, you’re kind of doing like therapy for the guy through the partner and it’s like, we both know that’s not effective at all.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah, it’s not. And I do end up with a lot of folks too whose spouses quote unquote want them to go to therapy so they’re there to see how I can help them please their spouse too. So it’s like. Kind of interchangeable, um, from both perspectives, but yeah, I’d love to see more men getting some support.
Mark: Yeah, me too.
Right. I mean, that’s kind of like what this show is about is hopefully inspiring guys to go to therapy. Um, and not to be something of like, yeah, like go there and get fixed. Right. It’s like, Just talk, trying to understand like talk and like yeah. Figure out like who you are and what your part is and what do you bring to relationship.
Um,
Melissa Barbash: yeah, how can you be happy? Uh, how can you [00:04:00] identify whether or not you are
Mark: Right. Pretty good questions. Um, so yeah, so we chatted briefly about fathers, right? And I think, you know, I, I was thinking about focusing in on partners and I think we will probably get there too, but I think fathers is a really awesome topic.
Of, you know, because intergenerational piece, because it’s not just, you know, a daughter with their dad. It’s also a generational difference. It’s a, you know, cultural difference. Um, so yeah, dive right into that. I mean, what do you see in kind of in your therapy room as it relates to daughters and fathers?
Melissa Barbash: Well, I would like to talk about partners too. So we can hold that for whenever we talk about that. So that’s a good idea. Also, we get to it. Um, I see a lot of dysfunction. In relationships between, I’m going to say a lot of daughters, but children, um, and their fathers, um, and a lot of separation and, um, this idea that they want the, the people that I work with want something to be [00:05:00] better, um, want some sort of conversation, want some sort of emotional experience with their father, um, before that’s too late.
I see a lot of fixing themselves or taking the onus on how to change those relationships. And I do think that the parent has a lot of responsibility in looking at how they’ve impacted their children. Um, and I understand that it can be really hard to do that. Uh, I just can’t imagine so many of the fathers out there are, when they get to the end of their life, satisfied with their relationships with their children.
Um, so I, I think it’s really important for fathers of any age, right? So someone who may be entering fatherhood right now to know what’s going on inside them so they don’t [00:06:00] turn to addiction, so they don’t turn to silence, so they don’t tell their child not to express emotion, uh, so they can start from there.
And then the older generation trying to repair that, um, also. So I see kind of both, both areas.
Mark: Yeah, so what do you think there’s a lot that like, I want to back up to father’s like, what do you think happens there? Because I’ve had the experience and I imagine you have where you’re working with a client, right?
And they like, they do this, they try to do this big reconciliation. Like, maybe they write this powerful letter, right? Or they, you know, have like the sit down talk or even like you said on the deathbed, right? They’re like, okay, what am I going to say to my dad before he dies? Like, I want to be really meaningful.
And I’ve seen like. I want to put a number on it, but I would say, like, 80 percent of those just fail, like, spectacularly, right? Like, the person does this big reveal they’ve worked on for months sometimes. And then, like, the dad is there and they’re like, that’s great. What’s for dinner, you know, like, just like, total dismissive.
Dismissal? Yeah. What do you think that’s [00:07:00] about?
Melissa Barbash: Um, I try to set clients up to know that a big reveal is not going to change the human in front of you. Um, because I, I think that they go in really hoping that all the work that they’ve done will change the person in front of them. Um, I don’t want it to be a big reveal.
I’d like it to be kind of like over time. Um, because a big reveal is just Filled with hopelessness because you do all of this work and then you go in to try to talk with the person and then you get the same thing that you always get because of course you do that person hasn’t been doing their work.
They’re not expecting this big reveal. And why are they going to act any differently? Um, so I see that. All the time, this hopefulness, like if I just talk to him in this particular way, or if I bring it up in this way, he’ll change and he’ll love me and he’ll treat me differently. And, um, it doesn’t happen that way though.
Um, it’s just [00:08:00] that they’re, they’re often moving towards someone that doesn’t have those skills. Um, so I, I hate building up someone’s hopes like that. I try to, I try to say that you’re actually working on changing. Um, how you experience your father, if you can’t convince him to work with you in this. Um, so, I know sometimes on these shows I ask you if that makes sense.
So, sometimes when I just think out loud, I don’t know if it lands as, uh, sensical. It is
Mark: sensical. Is
Melissa Barbash: that a word?
Mark: It is, yeah, it’s highly sensical. Yeah, I mean, what I’m what I’m hearing, you know, like, it’s that you don’t want to set people up for disappointment. Right? And
Melissa Barbash: when
Mark: they do this big reveal, it’s kind of unreasonable to expect that it’s going to just, like, completely change their dad’s personality or completely, like, be the silver bullet that’s going to cut through everything.
Melissa Barbash: No, I can’t cut through shame and [00:09:00] like years of Their own trauma or their experience that they wanted with someone else or a fantasy that they have it just can’t cut through all of that And nor should they be doing all of the work to try to do that because it’s not their job to be a therapist to their parents And I I understand that therapies really are Much more acceptable now, um, and less stigmatized, and, um, I would just really love to see, like, men in their 50s and 60s, um, face some hard demons, I think, in order to themselves be satisfied relationally.
It can’t be fun. It can’t be a fulfilling life to know that the person, like, that you’ve birthed has so many negative feelings toward you. Or it doesn’t feel like you have a relationship, it just, that can’t feel good.
Mark: Um, yeah, [00:10:00] I mean, 2 things to say, I think that’s, that’s the question I have Melissa. And I’m curious, really, we think of this because I don’t have an answer.
Like, this is an open question of that generation and specifically men, like, do they have an emotional world that we’re not aware of? I think as a therapist, I want to say, yes, Or is it something where they’re not, they’re like literally not capable of it. And as a human, I want to say no. Right. Because I, I.
When I think of like, I think of my own dad and I love my dad. We have a great relationship and he doesn’t have the same emotional, doesn’t seem to have the same emotional depth that I do and the way that I’ve worked with my therapist to frame that, this idea that like, he’s actually so good at providing and doing the immigrant experience, which he had to go through and building like a foundation for our family, like so much of his life was backed into that they didn’t get to develop the emotional stuff.
And actually the fact that he was so good at the physical logistical things is he has a son. That now has emotional needs, right? Like the foundation was there to have a someone’s emotional needs. [00:11:00] And then when I want to connect with him emotionally, it’s like a wall and there’s like something very tragic about that, right?
Like if he was kind of like less good at being a provider, then I would have to be more of a provider and we could connect, I think more. Right, because we’d be in that same kind of like logistical survival state, you know,
Melissa Barbash: I hear what you’re saying about like cultural experiences and, you know, energy intergenerational experiences and that.
Um, men and women have had to hold, like, specific roles. Um, I think that it’s very sad that they’re only allowed to hold one particular role. Um, because I don’t think that people don’t have the capacity. I just think that they have, um, Uh, honed a particular side of themselves, uh, that, that was necessary to help like their children function in a particular way and to protect themselves.
And I don’t think that means that [00:12:00] they don’t have that other part. I just don’t know if they had the luxury to, um, uh, what’s the word, uh, nurture it. I guess, uh, like we do. I think we have a little bit more, um, ability to nurture those pieces, all of our pieces, um, whereas I’m sure, and I think men at some time didn’t have that, um, they weren’t taught that and they didn’t have that space to do that necessarily.
I, I think what I want is to say, like, there’s that space now in the world. Um, and, um, I want them to be able to utilize both parts of themselves, all parts, um, provider, father, mentor, crier, whatever it is, uh, um, So I, yeah, I mean, my father is also not somebody that you can kind of contact emotionally. It’s [00:13:00] very difficult.
But I actually think it’s in there because I, he can do it with other people. Um, so I’ve actually asked other people if he, you know, what kind of emotional experience they have with him. And. Um, I know he’s not, I know he’s always been kind of harder to attach to, uh, for most people in my life. And I also know that he’s capable because I’ve seen it, I just don’t see it with my sister and I.
Um, so, I think that some people can function in the world amongst their peers, but when it comes to their children, they just, you know, Something happens, uh, that they just, they kind of like see their children stuck in this moment in time and like treat them that way for the rest of their lives. I don’t know.
I’m rambling now, but I have a lot of thoughts.
Mark: No, no, no. Keep going on that. Yeah. Like, like, what do you think happens with the family relationship? Because I think that’s true. I think it’s true. I think, yes, specifically for older men. We’re like, [00:14:00] they can often be like better fathers to people that are further away from them further out of the rings in their connection.
Melissa Barbash: Yes, exactly. They can, like, um, take care of other people in a different way, or other people can convince them somehow to like, I have family members that can somehow convince my father to say more about what he’s feeling. But my sister and I are just like. Fucking banging our heads against the wall, you know?
Um, slowly, slowly. Um, so we start to wonder, well, there’s the capacity, what’s What’s the distance here then? Um, so I find that very interesting. Uh, can you ask me your question again? I lost my place.
Mark: Oh, yeah. No, the question is, is, is that right? It’s like, what do you think the barriers with children specifically, um, the barrier to emotional [00:15:00] intimacy, emotional connections.
Melissa Barbash: Okay. Um,
Mark: yeah, they kind of get stuck in time is what
Melissa Barbash: yeah. Yeah. Well, particularly like with divorce. Um, I think, you know, I’ll just say, statistically speaking, if it’s not shared custody, fathers get less custody, more often than not. And, um, I think, see their children in this, like, in this time frame of this particular age.
Um, and, you know, They have some, like, limited time to get to know them, and maybe they want limited time to get to know them. I don’t know everybody’s situation. Some people don’t fight for custody. Um, so, I guess my question is, uh, will, can, can men come forward and say, you know, I really don’t like this relationship that I have with my child?
Um, And I have to look at my part. Um, and that’s gonna [00:16:00] hurt. And it will hurt the child, too. But, is that so much better than living such a lonely existence? Um, and I know that the answer for a lot of people is no, that pain and shame and all of that is not better. Um, but I’m an advocate for dialogue and talk, and I think it is better.
Uh, for anybody that I work with, at least, from anything that I’ve heard. Um, they just want, if it’s anger, if it’s any sort of emotion, it doesn’t matter what emotion it is, just some sort of contact in the emotional realm.
Mark: Yeah, this one, this one realness, right? I mean, I think as, as children and all of us are children, like we want to know our parents.
We want to like really know them and feel them and be connected to them and try to get beyond like the role.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah, I mean, you have to know yourself well enough to be able to teach your child how to sort through their emotions. [00:17:00] So all of your shit is just going to go on to them. If you don’t work it out a little bit more, um, like your fears of crying and anger and it’s just going to go on to them.
So why don’t we start? Chopping away at that if we can.
Mark: Yeah, we’re going to work commercial break. There’s a lot more there, but I agree with you complete. Like, I think it’s a very speaking to the men that are listening. I think it’s a very heroic thing to do truly.
Melissa Barbash: And,
Mark: like, a very paternal leadership, strong thing to me, Gmail language here, but, but it’s.
It is, it’s like the, the most brave thing to do is to face these demons and like, slay them and make sure they don’t get passed down to your children because that like, what kind of gift is that? Like, talk about being a provider, like, that’s the, the biggest thing you can provide
Melissa Barbash: is
Mark: breaking that cycle that like, you may have, and I’m sure your dad may have, and his dad may have, and it goes all the way back right up that paternal line.
So breaking that, um, is pretty, really powerful. I mean, [00:18:00] really like truly actually life changing.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah, I know we’re going to a commercial, but like, maybe consider the thought, do I want my daughter to end up with a man who’s emotionally like me? Um, because that might happen. Uh, so, I know that’s a hard question, but like, it happens.
And yeah, all right. I’ll just
Mark: say that more often than not. So yeah, we’re going to go to a commercial break and we come back. We’ll just pick right back up.
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Intro: You are listening to the Men’s Therapy Podcast with Mark Azulay. To reach the show today, please call 1 888 346 9141. That’s 1 888 346 9141. Or send an email to podcast at menstherapy. online. Online or visit www. menstherapypodcast. com now back to the men’s therapy podcast.
Mark: Welcome back to the men’s therapy podcast.
So I’m here with Melissa Barbash and we’re talking about um, father daughter relationships, really? And we were just chatting a little bit over the break and I’m happy Melissa that you feel similar to me where this, I think the therapy industry can like [00:21:00] shrink it down and say like parent child. But I do think father daughter is different from, you know, mother, son, different from, you know, father, son, or, you know, mother, daughter.
I think each one has their own unique nuanced, um, kind of feeling to it. So I’m curious for the father daughter, you know, for the scope of this episode, um, what would you say would make that relationship unique?
Melissa Barbash: Well, I guess I’d have to start with culturally. In our society, uh, women typically are kind of doing more in the parenting relationship on the home front.
I don’t want to generalize that completely, and I know that there’s evidence of that. So I don’t want to say that it’s actually research based.
Mark: So I think women typically are primary caregivers in a relationship. Yes, yes,
Melissa Barbash: yes, and can fulfill a lot of roles. You know, sometimes due to [00:22:00] biological pieces, like they’re, they’re predisposed to kind of being more available when a child cries.
Um, so I think that fathers are going in with a disadvantage. So I think they have to do a little bit more to bring themselves into the relationship. Um, that’s the first thing I’m thinking of. The second thing I’m thinking of is. Giving, giving, um, daughters this message that like you’re just a provider, um, or you know, you can come to me for anything that you need, but kind of emotions are off limits.
I think gives them a skewed version of attachment and a lot of the people that I work with end up in relationships with absent partners. Um, and come to therapy to heal those relationships when really one of the primary relationships they need to heal is with their parent, [00:23:00] with their father. Um, and so typically because the father is unwilling to do that or not available to do that, they end up healing that with their relationship, this one or the next one or the next one or the next one.
Um, and so it would really be helpful if You know, the, the, one of the caregivers was part of the conversation so that this person doesn’t feel like she is, um, like just stuck engaging in the same behavior over and over again, because she’s a bad child or rambling again. But that’s kind of where my mind is going.
Mark: Yeah, I think so. Just reiterate it in a different way. Right. It’s like,
Melissa Barbash: yeah,
Mark: I think the daughter patterns, the relationships over their father. Because of that unmet, right? So if their father was emotionally shut down, and in your example, they’re going to find a mostly shut down partners because they want it to be different with their dad.
Right, and they’re going to try to
Melissa Barbash: fix [00:24:00] that pain through a partnership
Mark: through a partnership, right? And they’re going to self select people where that probably also isn’t possible. Right? So, even though they’re trying to heal it, oftentimes, people end up just repeating that trauma over and over. Right,
Melissa Barbash: exactly.
Yeah, so I don’t want to give the message that’s out there to fathers that you need to be perfect or like your daughter’s gonna find someone terrible, but um Repair goes such a long way and talking about anything about yourself and any type of emotion that you have or Hearing your child’s emotions like it goes such a long way into helping them feel more secure in life And I think that that’s one of the primary reasons You You bring a child into the world is to love them and help them grow.
So why not help them grow in a way that’s really beneficial?
Mark: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, something that I want to share to the, the male listeners, [00:25:00] which I think has managed really hard for us to understand because we’re conditioned so differently, right. But women have this thing, which is primarily a result of oppression, quite frankly,
Melissa Barbash: um,
Mark: of always blaming themselves.
Melissa Barbash: Right?
Mark: Like, if a relationship is going wrong, it’s often the woman’s fault or the woman feels as though it’s their fault. They’re not good enough. They didn’t say the right thing. They don’t love that their partner enough. They don’t have the right answer. Like, they really, really personalized stuff in a way that men, I don’t think we really do because we’re conditioned to get mad at the world.
Right? Like as a man, you’re like, oh, that person’s an asshole or that person fucked up or, you know, F them. And we just like leave and find someone new. Right? Like we’re trained to externalize and women are trained to internalize. And, you know, something that I’ve had to learn, um, being able to shift with women is that, you know, 1, that fact and 2, which is even more important that, like, I cannot understand.
I, like. Really kind of stand the amount of internalization that women go through because I’m not a woman and it’s [00:26:00] like, just imagine the most shame that you’ve ever felt. And just like double it and double it and double it and double it and double it. Right? Like women live with an unbelievable amount of like, personal shame and fear and all that.
And, you know, I think y’all do your work, which, which is great to like, start to get empowered and liberated from that. But it is like a very, very real thing.
Melissa Barbash: And again, I
Mark: don’t think men get like, because of our conditioning and then maybe by biology is different too. But certainly the conditioning is really different around this particular topic.
Melissa Barbash: Yes, I mean, what I see is just women working so hard to try to find these answers. Um, like, how can I stop doing this? How can I get this person to do this better? Like, there and I know that’s. Like, oppressive training. Like, I know that that is like, work harder, work harder, work harder, you’ll find the answers, and they’re just exhausted.
All they want is someone to kind of come [00:27:00] into the mix with them, and just take a little bit of that, uh, ownership, uh, but they’ll keep working themselves to death. I mean, they’ll keep coming and trying and trying and trying. Um, and I guess I, I, it’s, it’s off the topic of fathers, but. It doesn’t mean that the people I’m talking about are not fathers, but, um, I also think it’s really important that, uh, when you were saying that, like, um, I don’t know what you were saying.
Anyway, I also think it’s really important that, um, when people go to couples work, that, um, not just the woman is in her own therapy. Um, and that happens a lot of the time, primarily due to, like, fears and also kind of, there’s a lot of [00:28:00] probably, um, um, rightful excuses around needing to provide and not taking the time away from work.
Um, and it just ends up leaving the woman to feel responsible, like, oh, okay, so the couples therapist is recommending that we both go to our treatment. I will be the Rule follower and the diligent one and go do that, but you don’t have to. So it reinforces the idea that something’s wrong with them, the women, and I do hear that maybe that’s too difficult for men to look at.
But it makes the couples therapy so much slower, too. So if you want to heal your relationship quicker, I think that’s a really good idea. I, I personally don’t Often recommend a couple’s therapy to my clients without having some kind of affirmation that their partner is also in their own [00:29:00] treatment because they’ll, what ends up happening a lot of the times is utilizing the couple’s work to kind of help the male, um, learn about his emotions and it, that takes a lot of time and it takes away from the actual relational component.
Mark: Yeah, I think that’s true. And I think it can also just double down on the disconnection. Right. If you have someone in the room, that’s very emotionally intelligent and interested in somebody who hasn’t done that yet, right? It just like, it just creates more moments for misattunement.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah, I’d like some feedback on if it feels like I’m bashing any men out there.
Because that’s not my intention, but it might be received that way. So I’m curious to know if it feels that way. I’m trying to figure out if I’m moving into that shame spiral that you were talking
Mark: about. You might be. I mean, they can let us know. Email podcast at manstherapy. online, um, with your feedback.
No, like, I think so, [00:30:00] so I’m doing a presentation is a side note, but I think it’s relevant. I’m doing a presentation. Um, that’s why we rescheduled and we’re pre recording this episode. So thank you. Thank you on air for that. Um, for the CCA and it’s about modern masculinity. Right, it’s about therapy specifically, it’s the audiences with therapists and fast forward all the way the end.
1 of the points I’m making is that in therapy, women need safety. But men need respect. Right. And I think like the conversation, the more direct it can be, it’s actually respect. Right. I think from like a male perspective, telling it to a straight, being honest, like coming at it with compassion, which I hear of like being like, yeah, like do this work, it’ll help your daughter, it’ll help your wife, it’ll help your partner.
Like that’s compassion. But I think like, as men, we want that. I mean, when I talk to dudes and I say like, Hey, what would be effective with me as your therapist? They always say like almost, it was nine times out of 10, they say, call me on my bullshit. I love it. Right. So like, I think what you’re feeling is that conditioning, right.
Is that [00:31:00] like, don’t challenge men. Men are emotionally fragile men. Like can’t take it. I’m telling you directly, we can take it. In fact, like we need to take it
Melissa Barbash: right.
Mark: Like we need more women like you that are able to say, like, do this shit, show up, like be a hero, look at your emotions. Like we need to be, we need that thrown in our face.
Right. Because I do think men grow through challenge. Right. And I think like, that’s a challenge is like. You might think that you’re like, too man enough to go to therapy, but it might be that you’re not man enough to go to therapy, right? Like, it might be fear and there’s nothing. There’s no shame about having fear.
The therapist is there to help you work through your fear.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah,
Mark: but you have to take the 1st step of picking up the phone and making an appointment. Right? Like, we can’t do that as therapists. We can’t force you to do any of this.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah. I don’t want your, I don’t want your fear to limit your relationships, like that’s what ends up happening.
And I, I don’t know the retention for you with, with men in your practice, but they, there’s a, there’s a lot of [00:32:00] good retention. And then there’s also some just kind of disappearance, giving up, um, doesn’t feel good, but can’t say that it doesn’t feel good or there’s something they don’t like. So I, I really want.
I want that, like, go see Mark, you know, he’ll, show up, see him, like, please keep showing up. That’s, that’s really all I, I think I want. Keep showing up.
Mark: Yeah, I mean, the guys that I see and there’s, we have, we have a gender difference obviously, so it might be different.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah. Yeah. What
Mark: we see , but like the guys, the guys that I see that most of ’em retain, uh, do retain, but the guys that, that fall off is actually like the nice guy performer guys.
Like the, you know, compliant resistance would be kind of like the term for it, right? The guy that like shows up has nothing wrong, like actually like speaks a therapy language, like tries to be like the best client tries to like. Explain themselves before they even get there, but there’s no emotion, right?
They’re like, oh, yeah, like, I got this figured out. Like, let me just like, [00:33:00] walk you through this process that I already did and rehearsed in the car on the way here. Right? Like, there’s no actual connection. They’re just like, performative vulnerability and performative therapy.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah.
Mark: Um, and I try to call that out.
And I think when that gets challenged. It can be really difficult because like that thing has worked. I think it’s worked with their partners too. Right. Cause like a lot of guys, especially in the Boulder, Denver area, like we’re a liberal place, like therapy language is out there. Like people have watched the Ted talks, right?
Like they can do a pretty good show, but I’ll tell you guys, right? Like your, your women, no women in your life. No, because they’re not listening to your words. They listen to your feelings
Melissa Barbash: and like,
Mark: you can hit them with like the best fucking speech and the best thing that you’re like, Oh man, I nailed it.
Polite. If it’s flat and it will be because it’s not real, like they know,
Melissa Barbash: yes, and they’ll, they’ll, they’ll try to chase you for them. I know you’re angry. I know you’re sad. I know you’re feeling this way. It’s probably, you know, very annoying, but it’s, uh, [00:34:00] we are very intuitive with emotions, particularly if we had fathers that didn’t talk about them.
We had to guess. And then we, you know, Are typically right about being,
Mark: I think y’all know, I mean, you’re tapped into stuff again because of training. and I think this is also biological difference. It shows up in research where women are way more attentive to tone of voice and pace of speech and micro expressions.
Like y’all, your brains and perception is like. Hardwired to notice, like, all those, like, little moments that guys are so much, we’re so much more literal. Right. Yeah. So we’re like, or we’re like, oh, yeah, but like, I told her I was angry, and it’s like, yeah, but did you get angry? Yeah. Right. Or like, I told her I was sad, but like, did you cry?
You know, like, like where’s like that nonverbal piece?
Melissa Barbash: Yeah. I’m sad .
Mark: Right. You know, I’m really sad that this happened. Um, and I’m angry at, at you. But you know what? I, I think I, I thought about it and I figured it out, and we’re just gonna change this, you know, we’re just gonna change this piece and it’s gonna be fine, and we’re gonna be good.
Melissa Barbash: Right? Like,
Mark: like,
Melissa Barbash: yeah,
Mark: [00:35:00] it’s so isolated. And I say this because I’ve done this, right? Like, it cuts the partner out of their relationship completely, right? When you, when you tell them, you walk them through the whole story, and then you give them a solution. And you say, like, I already got all figured out.
Like, there’s zero relationship in that.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah, yeah. It’s kind of like saying in the room. It sounds like you don’t need me for this. You’ve got the questions, the answers, and the whole like, you got it worked out. And I’m just going to sit back and hang out here, um, but it’s, it’s, it’s very interesting. I think it, it sparked this idea that, um, so my dog went to the ER the other night, um, and, uh, I, uh, and so my partner has a learning disability, but I don’t actually think that, um, plays into this.
Sometimes he wonders, um, but I actually think like the awareness that you’re talking about, like the awareness of the world, like that there’s, there’s not that level of awareness in a lot [00:36:00] of men. Um, and so, you know, I was telling the vet, well, his tongue was redder than usual and his pupils are dilated and my partner’s like, what are you talking about?
Like, I heard him whimper. That I heard, and he was pacing, like, those are the things that he noticed, um, but I was like, no, this is going on, he’s picking this foot up, you know, he, so it’s just interesting that you were saying, kind of the differences, I know I’m using a dog as a reference, but I think it’s a, kind of, Hitting hitting on, you know,
Mark: that’s it.
I mean, there’s like, uh, insane amount of research that I find super fascinating of just that. Like, when you, like, feel like a movie, right? And then you ask a man versus a woman to recall what they remember. It’s exactly that the 1 we’ll talk about the characters and, like, you know, their relationship to each other and what they’re saying and, like, the tone of voice and the men are more aware of, like, the objects in the room or, like, what the scene was or, like, in general, kind of, like.
Okay. Um, where it’s happening in the context for it. Right. And like, the [00:37:00] shorthand is like, you know, women live in a world of people and men live in a world of things. And there’s room for both. Like, there’s one is not better than the other, but like, those are, we just talked about the dog, like that is real.
And that is, I’m going to learn disability. That’s just like gender differences.
Melissa Barbash: I think so. Yeah. That’s
Mark: just, we’re different creatures. Women are different, you know,
Melissa Barbash: exactly. So I wasn’t annoyed about that. I get annoyed about other things. Um, but we have a minute. Is that, I can’t, Yes. Yeah, we just started
Mark: commercial.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah. Um,
Mark: there’s something in there.
Melissa Barbash: I think when we come back, I want to talk a little bit more about, um, what it’s like to have your, um, like spouse nurture you rather than a therapist and how that’s going to get old and, uh, they’re going to get mad at you a lot. Um, uh, women are going to get annoyed with having to be the one to nurture you and not having someone else there to do it.
Mark: Yeah. I’d love to talk about that because I’m on the opposite. Right. I mean, you [00:38:00] know, my partner, Caroline, right? And like, I’ve always had therapists nurture me and I struggle to have my, my partner nurture me. So I think it’s a good conversation. I think there’s like, 2 sides to this coin.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah,
Mark: the answer is like, it’s somewhere in the middle, but yes, when we get back from the commercial break, we’ll chat more about, um.
Nurturing and what that might look like.
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Intro: You are listening to the Men’s Therapy Podcast [00:40:00] with Mark Azulay. To reach the show today, please call 1 888 346 9141. That’s 1 888 346 9141. Or send an email to podcast at menstherapy. online Or visit www. menstherapypodcast. com Now! Back to the men’s therapy podcast.
Mark: Welcome back to the show men’s therapy podcast.
Um, we’re in this final segment here. We’re going to talk about nurturance, um, and kind of both sides of the coin of being nurtured by a therapist versus being nurtured by your partner. Um, and what each of those polls look likes and how to find kind of a middle ground, because I guess what I would start off and I’m curious most of what you think about this.
You might be a difference of opinion. I think a lot of men struggle being nurtured at all. Right? Like, I think we’re conditioned to think that we’re all alone and that the Calvary isn’t coming and we have to do everything by ourselves. Um, you know, and I pray for this presentation, right? I just got this stat where [00:41:00] in America is crazy.
39 percent of men self identifies being lonely. And identify as that, if they had an emergency, nobody would be able to help them 39 percent and that’s self identification, which means it’s probably higher because some guys probably wouldn’t say that on a, on a, um, on a survey,
Melissa Barbash: the cynical part of me goes to, um, well, do they have that available and nobody taught them how to ask for it?
Um, or do they also have really unloving relationships and don’t have that? So my, my mind goes to both of those questions. Um, as you can see, I, I am, I can never be solely compassionate. not never, if the solely compassionate I get, you know, I have lots of questions behind everything I can be,
Mark: yeah. I, I think a lot of it’s self isolation, right?
Like, I don’t think it’s entirely true, but it’s like they feel
Melissa Barbash: as
Mark: though, you know, again, if they had an emergency, no one would be there [00:42:00] for them. That might be false, but they, they certainly feel that way or they reporting that they feel that way. I think
Melissa Barbash: didn’t say it. Yeah. Self isolation. That’s a good way to say it.
Mark: Yeah.
Melissa Barbash: Um, I was actually thinking about what you said and I was wondering if, um, there’s a difference between someone, uh, being in recovery and, um, utilizing their therapist for nurturing and someone who’s not really utilizing anybody for that, but the person that they can rely on the most. Is their spouse and rely on meaning, uh, not to nurture, but to kind of, um, save or forgive or, um, teach them about emotions.
So, you know, I, I kind of wondered if there was a difference between kind of like my clientele and. [00:43:00] Someone who’s in recovery, uh, I don’t know that that’s only it, but that’s where my mind went.
Mark: Yeah, I don’t, I mean, to question, I think. Being in recovery with human recovery, we’ve certainly been exposed to therapists, which I think a lot of guys haven’t even had to therapist ever.
Most people, most guys. Right, I’ve never worked with therapist.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah,
Mark: I don’t know. I mean, I think from my experience, like. I, you know, I had a parent that was very, like, emotionally intrusive. And their emotions, like, dominate our space. So I think as a kid, I made this vow to myself that I would never be that, right?
Like, my, my emotion would never dominate space. I would never like, derail something because I’m having a bad day. Like, I would just kind of like, do nice guy stuff. Right? So, for me, having a therapist, that’s quite frankly that I pay for. Right, like that, like I pay them to just listen to me and I pay them to like, not inject their own stuff.
And I pay them to kind of pay my own guilt away [00:44:00] of being emotional. Like, oh, like, I’m doing this service. So, like, it’s okay for me to to be emotional and to, like, complain or to, like, kind of get this stuff out. That was really, really helpful for me. Like, I needed that container to kind of overcome that Val.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah.
Mark: And I still struggle with this idea of like, yeah, I remember being proud of this of like, I’m like, yeah, I have a therapist. So I don’t burden you guys with my emotional shit. Like I would tell my friends that I tell my girlfriends that right. That like, I’m a catch because I’m not going to like complain.
I’m not going to ask you to nurture me because like, I totally, I already have this other person that does that. Um, now that I’m a little older and mature, like that is, can be detrimental to my relationship because it’s disconnecting. Right. I mean, it cuts Caroline out of our conversations.
Melissa Barbash: Um,
Mark: and that’s kind of what we’re actively working on right now is, is figuring out what even what do you nurture?
It’s like, it looks like,
Melissa Barbash: you know, a long
Mark: winded answer to your question. No,
Melissa Barbash: it’s a, it’s making me think about, you [00:45:00] know, saying more about my experience. Um, and I guess I’m thinking of. Like a spouse or a partner of someone who’s not in recovery, um, who’s actively using or actively struggling with an addiction of some kind.
And the relationship becomes very dependent on the primary person in it for any kind of functioning, really, um, or, uh, maintenance of relationships. Uh, keeping someone alive sometimes, like there’s a lot that goes into, you know, holding secrets and so there’s a lot that goes into that and most of the people that I work with and myself included have like begged the people that they’re with to go talk to somebody and uh, so that, I’m going to use your word, so that the burden [00:46:00] is not on one person.
Um, and I think we’d be open to them, quote, unquote, burdening anybody other than just one person, but those other people can’t help. So that’s why we say therapist, like, go do this with the therapist and then come talk to me about it. I don’t want you not to burden me with your emotions, but I’m, I want to be in a relationship with you.
I don’t want to be your person that helps you solve this necessarily, because then what happens to me in that. Um, so I, uh, I understand what you’re saying also, like I grew up in a house where I contained a lot and could take care of a lot of other people, so I could do that. So I got to my breaking point, and I’m like, you know, go, go, go talk to someone, go, and so I’m sure I got a little colder, um, in that, uh, cold, [00:47:00] I don’t like that word.
I got a little less, um, uh, I got more resistant to being the person. That someone could just come to for everything. Um, I don’t want to be that person. And I, I don’t, um, when I’m working with people who are new to recovery, I’m also very specific that I can’t be their only person. Like, you have to be part of a program.
You have to be part of a group. You have to have a sponsor. It doesn’t matter if it’s one or all of us. It’s just something else. Um, because Addicts tend to whittle down their, uh, support system to one person and whether that’s their spouse or their therapist, it happens. And it’s not a good place to be for them or for the person in relationship with them.
Mark: Totally. Totally. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I think it just has a. Is a different case, right? Because where I go with it is, you know, different podcast topic, but it’s like, [00:48:00] it’s so regressive, you know, like, when, when I think of some kind of classic addiction behavior, when it comes to mind is when addict will often like relapse and then make it their partner’s fault.
Melissa Barbash: Right. Like
Mark: you made me do this. You made me drink. You made me use, right. Or make it the therapist fault or like this attention seeking, you know, mostly unconscious, but still real, like attention seeking behavior, right? Like, or wanting to get caught, right? Like leaving the beer bottles in a place that like, of course, your wife is going to find them.
Melissa Barbash: Right?
Mark: Like, there’s so much like. Really regressive, like really young things there around caregiver around, like, see me, notice me, love me, right? Like, love me no matter what, right? Like, pick up after me, right? Like, take care of me. Like, it really, it’s really infantilizing and I think what you’re saying, it’s really apt, right?
Like, I think your partner, um, their partner doesn’t want to be their mom, right? Like, doesn’t want to be their kicker. I mean, it’s not sexy. I think the relationship dies off. It, it, it lose a lot [00:49:00] of respect. Right. And then that person, that caregiver that I know you work with, like can feel trapped and feel responsible and feel like they have to save this person.
Um,
Melissa Barbash: yeah. And it doesn’t work and it’s just a disaster. Um, and all of the things that you’re saying are, are things I think are valuable to teach to men. I don’t think that they, I’m going to say everybody doesn’t realize that, but since we’re talking about men in particular, I don’t think that men. A lot of men know that that’s what they’re doing, that they’re regressing, that they’re or why they’re regressing or what they’re trying to ask for in that moment.
Um, and how, and how, um, they’re not going to get what they want by doing that in the long run, in the short term. Yes, they’re going to orchestrate something to get what they need and what they want, but they’re just going to continue this cycle of unhappiness. Yes. Um, yeah, I know I moved it [00:50:00] to addiction, but it’s, it feels like such a big part of the same thing.
Yeah.
Mark: Like, yeah, and I think it goes, goes back to kind of, you know, um, like oppression. Right. And I think male privilege, right? Like, I think a lot of men don’t get challenged and they don’t get challenged as boys. You know, again, I’m doing this Richard’s presentation. I got so many of these interesting facts.
Um, another 1 is that I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but, um, women in school and kindergarten, right are corrected. The behavior is corrected. I want to say it’s almost 3 or 4 times more often. Then male behavior is corrected. Right. And the other interesting wrinkle to that is that the, the teachers that are correcting male behavior are female teachers.
Melissa Barbash: If you
Mark: actually have a male teacher in early education, which is rare, but when there’s a male teacher, it actually is way closer to 50, 50. Um, and it’s again, the reason that the research puts forth is it’s a suppression factor of, like, women are taught not to challenge men, right? They’re taught not to call them out.
They’re taught not to, like, scold them, [00:51:00] right? So you have a male child who’s been throwing temper tantrums since he’s been 5. And he’s still throwing temper tantrums when he’s 45,
Melissa Barbash: you know, because
Mark: the women in his life, and it’s, again, it’s not women’s fault. Like, this is oppression. I want to make that really clear to our female listeners too, right?
It’s not your fault. Like there’s oppressive messages that says, like, do not challenge the men in your life. Do not call them out. Do not stop them. Like, just like, like they are the, they are an unmovable pillar and you have to like operate around them instead of asking them to move and change.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah.
Mark: And a lot of guys, like, we also suffer from that.
Right. Like in the, in the short term, like I said, it could feel really good to be that on a movable pillar and to get what you want, but like, you’re also rigid and also everybody hates you, right? Like you’re like, like, like behind closed doors, they’re talking about you right behind closed doors. You’re, you’re not as powerful as you might feel in that moment.
Um, it’s really lonely, isolating place to be. And you never learned how to dance. You know, you never learned how to change and move and grow and actually relate.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah, I think that’s true. I was thinking about, um, [00:52:00] I was thinking about, uh, two things. Um, I recently listened to this podcast by Kara Swisher. I don’t know if you know who she is, but anyway, she interviewed Gina Davis and, uh, Gina Davis was talking about how there was like a never another female cast movie other than a league of their own about like women in sports.
And they were like, yeah, we already made that movie. Uh, so, anyway, it was a, it was a really interesting, for anybody who wants to listen to it, it’s, she was very interesting and talked about, like, this idea of what shows are shown to children when they’re younger, and how, uh, women, or girls, watch all the boy shows, and then the boys stop watching the girl shows when they reach a certain age, and so they’re not, like, exposed to that as much anymore.
Um, and then the other thing I was thinking of was when I worked in a treatment center, And I had only male bosses and I, I said, I was volunteering like in one capacity when I worked in [00:53:00] the other also just to help. And, uh, I said, you know, this is getting to be too much. I, I’m here like I need, I can’t do my job and volunteer here.
Like you need to fill this position. And the response was, you should really think about your career here. Um, and I, so the message is don’t work harder. Don’t, don’t, uh, don’t do anything that’s good for you. And. I just don’t know that men are receiving the same message, and if they are, I want to help them through that, because I don’t want them to feel oppressed either, um, by certain things.
So I, I just, I wanted to be here to make sure men know that, like, they are justified in wanting to understand themselves. Um, and if you don’t want to, or if that’s not something that someone taught you is okay, I guess I wanted to say it’s okay. It’s perfectly okay. And every [00:54:00] fucking woman in your life wants you to, so, um,
Mark: yeah, you’ll be a better man for it.
Right. And again, it’s like the most heroic journey you can take. It’s like the journey inwards actually, and like trying to break these chains and becoming like more fundamentally more human ultimately.
Melissa Barbash: Yeah, exactly. You get to be human also.
Mark: Yeah, so we got to wrap up here. It’s great conversation. I know you’ll be back on in the future.
Um, but for those who want to find you online and know more about you, where can they contact you?
Melissa Barbash: Uh, my website is recovermecounseling. com. Um, phone number is probably easier because that just gets kind of, both are fine. Uh, phone number is 720 551 5056, but look up the website.
Mark: Recovery counseling dot com.
Check it out. So thank you all for tuning into men’s therapy podcast. Great conversation as always. If you can think of a guy who needs to hear this conversation, please forward it to him, share with him, sit down, listen to it with him, whatever it takes, you know, you need to start to bust the stigma and get more men [00:55:00] into treatment, um, into therapy and just, yeah, doing this really powerful work, um, for the good of, for the good of everybody and for the good of themselves.
Thanks again for tuning in. Um, we’ll see you next week. Another episode of Men’s Therapy Podcast.
Intro: Thank you for joining your host Mark Ale on the Men’s Therapy Podcast. Be sure to tune in again live next Friday at 2:00 PM Eastern Time and 11:00 AM Pacific Time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel and Anywhere podcast are found. To support the show, leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.
For more information or to apply to be a guest, visit www.menstherapypodcast.com
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