A Lineage of Men’s Work w/ Desmond Cohen

A Lineage of Men’s Work w/ Desmond Cohen

November 3, 2023

This is episode we’ll interview one of Men’s Therapy Online’s therapists – Desmond Cohen. We’ll not only chat about his journey with Men’s Work but his fathers.

Episode Transcript:

Intro: [00:00:00] Mark Azulay is an industry leader in psychotherapy and men’s mental health. He’s helped countless guys get back on their feet, deepen their relationships, and excel in their lives. Now he’s taken all that he has learned and is sharing it with you. In each episode, Mark will interview an expert in the field of masculinity and men’s work.

We’ll cover topics such as emotional intelligence, masculine identity, anger management. Financial health, trauma, recovery, marriage, and divorce ethics and spirituality. Tune in and become a better man. 

Mark: Welcome to the show. I’m your host, Mark Azulay, and I’m really excited to introduce Desmond Cohen. Uh, Desmond is a therapist, um, at Men’s Therapy online.

I’ve known him for years. He’s a great friend, and I’m really excited to just talk to you about this work that we’re doing together. 

Desmond Cohen: Thank you. Yeah, me too. Um, hello [00:01:00] marks community out here and I guess my community to now increasingly. 

Mark: Yeah. And I think, like, you’ll certainly be a recurring guest on the show.

And I’m excited to learn about your history because I think we’ve talked about in bits and pieces, but I feel like this format we can get kind of the full story and talk about fatherhood because I know someone that you are, you know, a new father and something that you put a lot of time and energy and effort into and something that’s very near and dear to your heart.

Desmond Cohen: Yeah, absolutely. Um, something that feels like I’m growing into at this point. Uh, and today in particular, in a big way, interestingly, so timely, good timing for a show, I guess. 

Mark: Yeah. You want to start with that? What’s what happened today? What’s the recent update? 

Desmond Cohen: Um, upstairs from my office, uh, my dad is currently taking care of our child by himself for the first time.

Uh, so it feels big. It’s like, uh, some weird, uh, kind of touch point for a lot of the different themes that have come up around fatherhood for me around [00:02:00] trust around my relationship with him around his own story. Um, so, 

Mark: yeah, it feels timely. Yeah, I’m really curious about that. Right? Because when I work with clients that are going through it, it’s like, You know, I think as men, we go through this individuation phase, you know, in like our twenties and early thirties, and then we have kids and all of a sudden, like, we’re back with our family, you know, like they get involved and that’s a good thing.

Um, and it’s like a different step. So it’s interesting to hear that, like, your dad is there, um, and you have that kind of paternal line, right. Of like moving down the generations. Um, do you relate with that? Like, are you kind of coming out to individuation and coming back to a more family focused way of being?

Yeah, absolutely. It 

Desmond Cohen: feels like this nest got very like tight and warm in a different way than I had expected. The whole idea of, you know, it takes a village to like raise a kid feels like my body is like naturally putting a lot of effort into creating and [00:03:00] consolidating that in a way that I hadn’t really expected and feeling a lot of that energy from it.

This like generations this uh, this generation of grandparents now who it’s almost like they kind of turned it off Um through that individuation phase where they’re like, oh, yeah, great. You’re like 18. You’re 22, whatever it is I can finally not be a parent in the same way And so it felt my my memory is of my dad like shedding this identity of like, oh, yeah I don’t have to be a caretaker in the same way Um, and that was a big part of my like individuation of my 20s was this You Experience of feeling kind of dropped and feeling kind of angry towards him.

Uh, and so to have him now, like, circling back, like, oh, yeah, grandparent time. And he’s so excited to do it. Um, it was a little jarring and still is to some degree. And it’s interesting to now be trying to. Remedy this kind of this older sense of, uh, like defensiveness that I feel [00:04:00] towards him as a caregiver with also wanting my daughter to have access to.

The like wonderful love and care that he is able to offer, um, so yeah, there’s confusion there and this tension. It’s really, it’s been interesting. 

Mark: Yeah, it’s really interesting to like, go back to thinking about family, right? And living with family all the time, you know, as, as I’m thinking about having a kid in the next year or so, like, I’m thinking like, oh, man, I’m going to be with my family all the time.

Just like when I was growing up, I don’t have that sense of like, independence, um, that I at the time really fought hard for. Yeah. You know, 

Desmond Cohen: there’s this theme that has come up, uh, both in my own life. And then with a lot of clients that I’ve worked with and a lot of friends who’ve been in this to different degrees, which is who takes, who takes point as the parent now where there’s often this like tension that seems to show up where the grandparents have, you know, decades of experience being parents in their version of and the like decision [00:05:00] point of like, Who is the expert?

Seems like it’s this hot point for people constantly, and I’ve noticed in family dynamics where grandparents don’t immediately just take a back seat. There’s this big emotional experience for especially mothers, but parents broadly. Of like, who the fuck are you to tell me how to raise my kid? You did this 20, 30, 40 years ago, whatever it is.

Um, things have changed, you fucked it up in all the ways that I’m personally aware of. So who are you to tell me what to do? And I’m gonna correct you all the time. And it seems like there’s this The grandparents that I’ve seen who have really shown up in a powerful way are the ones who are showing up very humbly, who are basically showing up as like true support, as true aides, not trying to tell the parents what to do, not trying to be the expert in any way.

Um, and it’s when that’s been successful, it’s extraordinarily relieving to have someone who is both so [00:06:00] competent and has this like deep well to draw from, but who is like a true support. It’s honestly, it feels similar to, I think what it feels like to have like a good therapist of somebody who is, has competence, but also isn’t trying to like control the direction necessarily that we’re going.

Yeah, it’s been wild there. 

Mark: That’s that’s really cool. Yeah, I feel envious. Uh, I wonder what my experience will be like, if we’ll have that power struggle or not. Um, I’m curious and may not have an answer for this might be a little bit too early, but are you seeing anything about the way that you were raised by seeing how your parents interact with your daughter?

Yeah, because you can look at it with adult eyes, right? Like, you can actually see. Presumably how they did it. 

Desmond Cohen: Are you asking is, am I raising my child in ways that feel reminiscent of my own childhood or are you asking what’s, can you specify that? 

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. The question is like, what are you learning about your childhood from watching your parents interact with your daughter?

Yeah. 

Desmond Cohen: Um, it feels like there’s small things [00:07:00] constantly. There’s this, uh, there’s been a lot of focus on language in our household of like, what are the words that we’re using to describe certain things? Um, how are we operating with, um, But you know, our daughter is nine months old and she’s starting to test reactions in a bigger way where she will, you know, fall down and be clearly uninjured, more just like surprised.

And she’s starting to really watch our reactions to see what’s happening. Um, and the way that we respond to that is something of like, Oh, like that’s a change in culture. Um, where maybe in the past, someone might have said like, like, ignore them entirely of just like, oh, it’s just kids doing their thing.

They’re not actually injured or they’re not in danger. So don’t even acknowledge it. Um, something that my mom did that was like, shocking and gave me flashbacks when she was taking care of our daughter recently. And she was like, oh, you’re a faker. Like, oh, you’re faking. Um, and she did it a couple of times and it just immediately got to my core.

[00:08:00] I’m like, oh, fuck. I remember that. I don’t know if I can swear on this, but you can, you can, um, yeah, it just immediately brought me back to my own childhood and, you know, turned into these conversations with my wife about like, oh, what, what, what are the best practices here? What do we want to be imparting?

And we realized that like this small dynamic was part of the like invalidation of emotions that like our parents generation had in a big way. Of like, don’t, you know, don’t show your sadness. Don’t show your whatever, um, that it’s like this broader experience of like, hardening a child of like, you don’t need to express those things.

You’re they’re not. This isn’t the right place for that. If you’re not like, bleeding, then don’t bring it to me type of thing and, uh, how that does seem to their straight offs for it. Right? I think the. The, the outward armor associated with that definitely seems like for my mom, for [00:09:00] instance, helped her survive a pretty awful traumatic world that she was living in.

Um, but reacting now, I think our daughter, the hope for our daughter is that she has a lot more emotional intelligence at this point. Um, so, yeah, there’s a lot of like small tidbits like that. It’s been. Really jarring when they show up, it’s hard to, like, create these, like, overall checklist of like, oh, here’s all the ways that we want to raise our child.

And the most profound and awakened way. I don’t know what it is. Um, we’re kind of getting hit by them randomly. 

Mark: Yeah, I mean, that’s what I’m thinking as you’re talking. It’s like, man, there’s like, no way to prepare for this. And it’s all those little micro moments. Right. As I put myself in your situation, I was like, what, what would I do?

Cause again, I can see both sides. I can see like, there is some benefit in like being like, okay, you’re not really hurt, like get back to playing, like it’s fine. Right. And nothing of being like, you know, Hey, let’s talk about what that felt like. And you’re scared and over processing, but there’s, you know, too [00:10:00] far to either end of the spectrum.

You’ve got a kid that probably has some real issues growing up. Right. And like you said, there’s, I imagine every situation. Feels different and novel because it is right. I mean, there’s just different variables going into each one. 

Desmond Cohen: Yeah. And so clumsy too. I’m noticing the therapist takes over that moment.

Uh, like, oh, uh, let’s, let’s talk about what you’re feeling in this moment. Yeah. Let’s, uh, let’s explore a 9, a 9 month. I clearly doesn’t have the capacity to explore the larger, uh, nuances associated with why they. Made a crying sound when they fell down, 

Mark: right? Exactly. Yeah. There’s like, you know, knee feels bad, right?

You know, they’re not operating on those different levels. Um, so, so I want to put a little bit to talking about masculinity as we talk about your dad, what are some of the messages that you got from your family specifically around what it meant to be a man and these types of things? 

Desmond Cohen: Yeah. Uh, men are bad.

That was a big one. Um, I have this, [00:11:00] as I was thinking about preparing for the show, I was remembering this t shirt that my dad had for my, through my whole childhood. And he would pull it out occasionally. And, uh, it said real men don’t drop bombs. And he loved that shirt. I think he got it as like a protest in the sixties.

Um, but he kept it around through the two thousands. He might still have it somewhere. I don’t really know. Um, and he would pull it as this like reminder of How he felt opposed to the world, the masculine world around him. Um, and it showed up as these little snapshots of, um, basically. Like a generalization towards men’s culture, men’s community, masculinity, broadly as being something that is actually inherently weak, even though it’s pretending strength or trying to be strong, uh, the.

There’s actual dislike fragility and weakness associated with it, and he didn’t have a lot of language to [00:12:00] be able to describe it, but I think he had this big rejection. That was a big part of his personality and a little bit of the genesis for that is that I alluded a little bit to my mom’s experience, but she grew up in a world that was like, you know, Where she was surrounded by men that were, like, highly traumatizing.

These were, like, physically, emotionally abusive men, uh, in, like, institutions all around her. She experienced a ton of sexism and, uh, felt pretty disempowered and pretty targeted by, and, like, abused by men specifically. And I think part of My dad’s stance was him trying to be an ally to him as well or to her she was he was trying to Show support for her to try to be on the team with her because she was really having a I think She is just now in a lot of ways coming out of a lot of the trauma associated with that.

Um But it was a point for them to try to connect [00:13:00] and my dad also experienced a ton of bullying again from men and so it didn’t have a lot of association with a lot of like positive association with this like men’s world consciously, even though he also was like craving friendship with men and like community.

So when I was growing up, there was this. It seemed like there was this tension inside of him where he was seeking community pretty consistently, but also, uh, verbally. And a lot of the messaging that I got was like men and masculinity are bad basically, and dangerous. 

Mark: Yeah, I think it’s something that a lot of the, like, hippie generation imparted, right?

Um, like, kind of examples of going from the female side from the feminist movement, right? And then the hippie movement with the men of, like, you know, seeing the Vietnam war and all that and being like, you know, men and specifically, like, male violence and male greed, right? Are like, what’s wrong with this world?

Are those some of the messages that you got? 

Desmond Cohen: Oh, yeah, spot on. 

Mark: I think, yeah, you’re naming 

Desmond Cohen: it perfectly. It sounds like maybe that’s some of the messaging that you got to some degree [00:14:00] to I 

Mark: got. Yes, I got that. But I got it from my mom. She also, she’s a dentist and what came up in the 80s and 90s, where it was still a very masculine and still is a very masculine driven world.

So she some are probably your mother, like, fought a lot every step of the way. I think the added thing that I got is that my mom would often talk to me about my dad and the things she didn’t like about him and put the message of like, do not be a man like that, right? Do not grow up to be a man like that.

And as a kid, that was very confusing to me because I loved my dad and I didn’t see, I didn’t often agree with the things that she was. Saying, um, but I also love my mom and I didn’t want to like negate her, right. Or tell her or fight her. Um, so it was like a very complicated situation where I ended up, I think, like, you know, signing my name onto stuff and beliefs that I didn’t really have, or didn’t really feel just to like avoid conflict with my mom or to avoid pushing back, you know, but again, her stuff makes sense in the world that she kind of grew up in.

Absolutely. 

Desmond Cohen: I didn’t realize we were both [00:15:00] dentist sons, too. That’s interesting. Double dentist. Yeah, double dentist. 

Mark: Yeah. So, so I’m curious, right? Like, um, you’ve mentioned before that your dad did men’s work, right? Like as this kind of story progresses, do you remember what that was like for you? Were you, how old were you?

Were you born at that point? Like, like what was going on? 

Desmond Cohen: Yeah. So, um, his men’s work really correlated with his I guess you can call it like a midlife crisis era. Um, I don’t know if it was a crisis. I think there were, there were definitely challenges that were showing up. You know, there was empty nesting was starting.

So I was a teenager already. I was a late team. Um, and I had an older sister who was already out of the house. My parents were basically in the exploration of, do we want to stay together or not at this point? Here we are. We’ve, we’ve raised our kids for the most part. So who are we to each other now? And there was a lot of tension for a long [00:16:00] time with that and a lot of renegotiation that was happening over a long period of time.

Um, so they had all this time and all this energy and all of a sudden all this like, um, abundance in their lives in a lot of ways that they could then explore and they. The exploration. So this exploration was basically my dad’s version of it. Um, and he, uh, he went to burning man. That was the first, the first moment and kind of tapped into, uh, a world of being different.

And I think a fluidity and flexibility that he hadn’t had in his life for decades at that point. And that kind of touched on this brother touched off this bigger change that was happening, which we can talk more about after the break. It sounds like to, but 

Mark: yeah, I’m curious, like, yeah, I guess when we get back, what that’s like for you.

You know, and I think the work that we do with guys and that you do specifically, a lot of it is with fathers and going through this awakening of whatever, or therapizing or deepening, whatever word you want to use for a process, whether it [00:17:00] be going to burning man, right, or taking psychedelics or just getting into therapy for the first time and crying, you know, for the first time in 20 years, or, you know, journaling, finally, like thinking about their thoughts or introspecting, you know, I think, um, a lot of our female listeners might not realize that as men, we aren’t trained to really, you know, Think about ourselves, you know, we’re just like, kind of like power forward, no matter what the cost, like make it happen.

Um, so it’s a lot of the guys I work with like this is their first time actually pausing And breathing and like being like, oh shit, like how did I get here? Um, so i’m always curious about like what that does to their family because like they make these massive changes And I think at an individual therapy we’re like, yeah, you’re doing it Like you’re finally like crying and you’re finally setting boundaries and you’re finally Like speaking your truth and you’re finally like taking care of yourself but 

Desmond Cohen: That ripples out to a whole family.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and it was happening at a time when I was already in that individuation phase as well. And it was really starting to deepen. So the more different he became from [00:18:00] this version of father that I had known, the more it became easy for me to reject him and question him and be critical of him and all these other ways.

And I think he was going through a lot of changes. He experimented with his identity and all sorts of these. And yeah, it was hard, um, It was a lot of anger, a lot of confusion, a lot of fear of like losing role models. I was like, who do I, who do I reach for? Do I strive to be, if he, if this is somehow indicative of him failing, am I not supposed to be what he was?

And I don’t like what he is right now that because he looks, Like dangerous and chaotic in some way. And like, he doesn’t know himself as much as I do as a 22 year old in this moment. Right. If I’m so awakened, um, 

Mark: yeah. Yeah. So we’ll dig into that room to our first commercial break. When we come back, I want to hear more about that self discovery from your perspective and having kind of that data figure to push off of.

So if you’re tuning in, hang on in there and we’ll see you on [00:19:00] the other side.

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Intro: You are listening to the men’s therapy podcast with Mark Azulay. To reach the show today, please call 1 888 346 9141. That’s 1 888 346 9141 or send an email to podcast at men’s therapy dot online or visit [00:21:00] www. menstherapypodcast. com. Now back to the men’s therapy podcast. 

Mark: Welcome back to the show. I’m your host, Mark Azulay and I’m here with Desmond Cohen.

He’s one of the therapists we have at men’s therapy online and a great friend of mine and respected colleague, uh, Desmond. And we’re talking about kind of. The fatherhood, right? And their generational line. And you as a 20 year old going through your dad’s, um, kind of like therapy awakening. Uh, I’m curious, like what that was, you know, and it brings this concept that we’ve, we’ve, you know, riffed on this anti personality where when you ask men, what does it mean to be a man?

It’s always negative. It’s like, don’t be weak. Don’t be a pussy. Don’t be a coward. Like it’s never positive. I mean, a lot of it is like to be a man is to not be a woman. Right. And I think as young men, we often look around at the men in our lives, whether it be our parents or authority or whatever. And we’re like, I don’t know who I am, but I’m not that guy.

Right. Like, it’s just this like big, like, cutting and pushing away. [00:22:00] Um, so yeah, I see you nodding over there. Is that part of your experience? And what was that like going through that phase of. Development. 

Desmond Cohen: Yeah, I think the anti personality summarizes it perfectly. Um, I was in my early twenties, uh, in a long term committed relationship at that point and trying to be the version of like a good partner, loving partner and like young man that I knew and was still on a lot of the like traditional, you know, Uh script that we have in this culture and that was a part of the like white middle class experience that I had of like All right, graduating college get your corporate job like start your 401k, you know all that sort of stuff Um, so it was fairly comfortable to me at a time when my dad was rejecting that script in a big way Um, he became so he joined this uh community called the mankind project, uh, which is international at this point Um, and I think you I think you know about it The Just to, I guess, describe it a little [00:23:00] bit for folks, um, there’s like an initiation weekend, uh, where you, like, go through this broader rite of passage that’s basically, it was designed by therapists to help try to create a version of, uh, like a masculine rite of passage that we don’t seem to have, especially in this, like, white American culture.

Um, beyond some of the, like, less healthy versions of the stuff that we sometimes see in, like, fraternities and things like that. Um, so the idea is create this, like, intense, uh, experience that serves as a, like, a, a gate into a version of adult masculinity, and then also try to reinforce a version of masculinity that is, um, I guess healthier and informed by these like therapeutic ideas of the time.

Um, so the actual structure of it is this initiation weekend, and then you join a group. And for, uh, I think it’s like at least 12 weeks afterwards, basically, you’re a part of this, um, like a process group, [00:24:00] essentially, a process and support group with other men who’ve gone through the experience. And you’re, Basically doing group therapy with each other, uh, working on your own childhoods, working on what’s happening in your lives in that moment.

Um, a lot of men are working on marriages on, uh, sexuality on, uh, career and finances on childhood trauma, um, on addiction stuff. And, um, so it becomes this, like, incubator to kind of dive into that stuff. And then they provide this, uh, language that is very informed by Jungian archetypes and like, right of passage mythology stuff.

It’s very fun. Um, so my dad got involved with that, and 1 of the things about him is that he is a proselytize, or he loves to talk about whatever he’s doing and wants everybody around him to also love it and be a part of it. Um, so he’s like, telling me about all this stuff at the same time. And he’s like, Oh, yeah, we’re, you know, creating new masculinity.

Think you should do it. He must’ve said that to me like every month for years. Um, and [00:25:00] I loathed it at the time. I was like, I can dad doing his weird shit. Um, and I’d studied psychology. So there was like this like inkling where I was like, yeah, there’s probably cool stuff, but it’s probably not the way that he’s doing it.

Um, the rejection was strong in me at that time. And, um, so he’s going on this path of really, Separating and critiquing and trying, but also to some degree trying to rebuild what he had been tearing down for most of his life and clearly what he was craving as well. And so a big part of what this community offered was this strong male container where there’s.

New language to basically take pride in masculinity and not just feel like you need to reject it for being dangerous and, uh, violent, um, and depressive, uh, the idea is let’s, let’s identify and really focus on the powerful roles that men can play in a really like good pro social way in society. Um, [00:26:00] I wasn’t quite there yet and, um.

Mostly felt angry at him and mostly felt like he was becoming weak. He was becoming, uh, like he, I was, I was craving this strong, masculine role model in my life because I was feeling so like kind of scared as I was entering into this world of adulthood and it felt like he wasn’t giving me anything. Um, and so I ended up looking for strong role models anywhere that I could.

And I found myself attracted to spending time with the men who had a lot of those more, um, like, stereotypically masculine traits, um. I’ll never forget, uh, in this, like, early 20s in particular, I had a friend who was a Marine and, um, he, every time I would spend time with him and his buddies, they were like the epitome of, like, performative masculinity and, like, outward masculinity.

All these dudes are super jacked, right? And they’re just like, Walk around in their tight t shirts and everyone just [00:27:00] like parts for them. Um, and I remember walking down the street with these guys or like going to like a bar or a club or something. And it was like intoxicating. It was like, I was like, I had bodyguards.

I was like, no one can fuck with me on the entire planet when I’m with these guys. And that was mind bending to me, this experience and made it feel very attractive, even as these guys were like experiencing, you know, first waves of PTSD from combat. Yeah. First waves of like, uh, addiction and the like trauma associated with being so shut down.

All that stuff was already starting to show up. Um, and it started. So it felt like there was this almost this wedge that was happening where I wanted desperately to, like, have some version of it. But I was also already starting to feel the limitations associated with it. Um, And that was concerning too, because I was like, I feel like there’s no wind here.

Where am I supposed to go? 

Mark: Yeah. There was something so use the word intoxicating about that image. Right. Of like, just being [00:28:00] like a force of strength and projecting strength and like, just like commanding, right. It’s like that command and control kind of, um, mentality. Right, and yeah, and yet, right, like, oftentimes there is that emptiness deeper, right?

Or there is covering up something deeper. Um, but I think you need both, you know, like, like, I think as I’m, as I’m getting into this work, it’s like, you need both that strength and that confidence. And I think the word that I like is like gravitas, right? Like, just like weight, right? Just like a center of gravity of like, yes, I have a voice that matters.

Yeah. Yeah. And like people listen to me, you know, you don’t be a bully to have gravitas, right? You can just like, be respected to have gravitas. Um, and you need that deep emotional sensitive core and the idea is like, you know, applying it to the right situation. 

Desmond Cohen: Absolutely. Um, Mark, it feels like you’re jumping ahead of the timeline here, but yes.

Oh, well, they catch up. Yeah. You’re already at integration. Yeah. Um, yeah, I think you’re spot on. And, but I don’t think that I, [00:29:00] that didn’t make sense to me yet. Um, So my dad is going through this like version of masculinity that felt very, uh, it was, he would have a lot of language associated with, um, like being strong, but the way that he presented it didn’t actually feel it.

It was like he was trying to, it’s like he was putting it on as like a shirt. Um, and then, you know, after he like did his thing in the moment, it was back to this version of himself where he, he was trying to do it. It’s like the fake it till you make it thing. It felt like he was faking it to me. Um, and that his, his true self was this person who was massively insecure and who didn’t use power in a way that felt actually beneficial to the world.

And there’s a lot of like unconsciousness there. And like, he had spent so much time, like, tamping down his own power, um, that he, like, it was hard for him to reclaim it at that point. Um, so that felt really concerning and scary to me too. Um, [00:30:00] I guess, well, yeah, fast forward a little bit. Um, I did end up joining the Mankind Project and kind of went through the whole weekend and the initiation process.

And that’s part of what actually, uh, set me off to transition careers and go into psychology and become a therapist, um, was the experience of sitting down with these men and identifying that I felt like I had something to offer. Um, and that the experience of being in service, what did actually line up with this version of masculinity that I wanted was being able to use strength to and my, my capacity to be a secure anchor.

To help other people find security essentially to find other people help other people find safety Um the i’d say that the next phase of that was going to grad school and then feeling the pressures associated with going entering a profession [00:31:00] that is Historically far more female dominated and far more associated with a lot of the qualities of caretaking That we associate with more traditional femininity as well And having this fear that if I showed up First of all, I was supposed to be acting a certain way.

And then if I, if I showed up as the wrong type of man that I was going to be rejected inside of this, um, and then also having this concern that just because of who I was, I, I wasn’t going to be able to offer anything that people weren’t going to want to work with a man. Um, and I. Again, fast forwarding a couple of years working with you, um, and I think just doing a lot of the group process work.

That was a part of the Europa grad psych education. Um, I think I did start landing more in this idea that using the, uh, the power and privilege associated with, you know, unconscious privilege, I guess, in the way that I’m thinking about it, uh, [00:32:00] for empowering other people was maybe the most Valuable thing I’ve ever done with my life, and I think that that felt like part of the difference between how I felt, how I wanted to show up and how my dad was showing up that he seemed to land on this idea that if he made himself smaller, he was creating more space for other people.

Um, and I don’t know that he did this. In his career, I don’t think he did. Actually, I think his career may have been separate from what the messages I got are. Um, but it landed in me that part of what I wanted to do was use whatever strength, whatever power I had and whatever capacity I had to, like, not jump down into the well, but actually keep helping people up, um, ideally to surpass me, ideally to join, ideally to get to this position where, you know, equality can exist in whatever way that’s possible.

Mark: Yeah, that’s really well said. And I think I just want to like underline that. [00:33:00] And I think, you know, the, the men’s movement as it is, I think it had to go through that. I think a lot of the older generation did that kind of, you know, carbon zero mentality of like, I’m going to become as small, have no impact, like just create no harm, which I think is.

I mean, the messaging, I get it and it’s, you know, it’s like a level 1, right? Like, it’s kind of like a very blunt way. Um, and I love what you’re talking about. And I try to think of things the same way of, you know, the privilege isn’t going to go away, right? Like, like, whether we like it or not. And most days, if I’m being honest, I like it, right?

Like, we’re white presenting men. And that’s not going to change. So we can’t pretend like that’s not true. So the idea is, okay, now that we have this deck of cards, how do we play it for benefit of people that are less fortunate or don’t have those same, you know, cultural, um, headstarts that we did. Right.

Absolutely. Um, you know, including, and maybe in some ways, most importantly, like the women in our life, right. You know, when I think of family and I think of parenthood and all these things, like what is the masculine role as, or what’s the father role, right? What’s the masculine role in a family? [00:34:00] Um, and what role do we play there?

Do you have any thoughts on that? 

Desmond Cohen: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I like how you put that and I think the Uh, that that focus on, like, putting it into action, especially with the women in our lives was an area that I hadn’t really expected. And it kind of snuck up on me. I’ll just, I guess, provide a couple of snapshots about things that stood out to me.

I, I, I married, and my wife experienced a lot of, um. What is that called? The imposter syndrome in her career as she was building it and a lot of fear around Asking for more in a big way and a lot of fear around like leveraging Power in a way that would make her more Valuable to get her higher income, um, get her into positions that maybe felt better for her.

There was this very deep learned experience of accepting what is given and that felt like one of the big things where I was like, oh, [00:35:00] no, as a man, in a lot of ways, I’ve been taught to ask for what I want. Um, and then, oh, it’s like, it’s no harm to ask. That’s, I can’t remember how many times people have told me that, like, oh, there’s no harm in asking.

Right. Ask for that high salary, ask for that position, try and fail. It’s all good. The worst thing that happens is you get rejected. So what, uh, you’re still all good. And she hadn’t internalized that in the same way. And over the years of being like, oh, yeah, why you’re Why aren’t you getting more money for this?

Or like, oh, it feels like you’re aware now that like other people are getting paid more for you than you for this similar role. Um, and the phrase that we started using, it was like, uh, I was like, oh, yeah, like, the white man would like, and me is would just be like, oh, yeah, I just want more money or like, I’m going to go somewhere else and I would threaten it maybe, or this, you know, This idea of self sacrifice that was taught to her as being the only thing that has to take precedence over everything else, [00:36:00] um, was something that was really limiting her life in a huge way and just burning her out.

Um, I think we see this a lot in our field. Uh, she works in public service as well, and it’s huge in public service. She works with almost entirely, excuse me, almost women, and it’s endemic in that of, like, people who want to provide good and Are squeezed and squeezed to the point of, um, not being sustainable and just getting burned out.

Um, so, yeah, I guess that’s 1 example. 

Mark: That’s a great example. And I’m just smiling and we don’t have a ton of time to talk about it, but we’ve checked online offline that my relationship with Caroline is similar and she works in the, you know, social work field. And it’s the same thing of, yeah, women, like, yeah.

A lot of it feel about feeling like worthy or deserving and always having to prove themselves from coming from like a power under position. Um, and I imagine other minority populations probably feel similarly, [00:37:00] or they have their kind of their twist on it. And I think, yeah, just as men, like, we can give that to them.

We can give them like the love and the hype and the support of, like, I know you’re awesome at your job. I love you. You can do this. Like, you deserve more. Um, because yeah, women don’t often feel that. You know, and I think it’s. Unfair, right? Because I think a lot of women, at least initially in their careers, and I’m assuming your wife might be similar.

I know Caroline was like, did get paid in a way for doing good. Like, she felt good about doing good, but then as you get older, you enter this masculine world and it’s like, at the end of the day, you need to make money, right? Like, like the feeling of doing good, like doesn’t, it’s not good enough, right?

Like it doesn’t create safety and security. And that is, I think, a really hard thing that women, um, come up against in the workplace, you know? Yeah. 

Desmond Cohen: Yeah. I like how you put that to that. That’s one of the things that we’re good at. It feels like that’s one of the great things about male community is like, we fucking love hyping each other up.

We’re so good at it. 

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. We love like being [00:38:00] like the fire team or like the strike force that like goes out and crushes it. Right? Like you want to be like the ace quadrant. Um, well, we’re going to move to our final commercial break when we come back. I want to talk more about kind of. Yeah. What we bring to the masculine conversation and like how it evolves beyond some of the MKP principles and some of your thoughts around masculinity.

So if you’re listening, hang on in there and we’ll see you on the other side.

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Intro: You are listening to the Men’s Therapy Podcast with Mark Azulay. To reach the show today, please call 1 888 346 9141. That’s 1 888 346 9141. Or send an email to podcast at menstherapy. online or visit www. menstherapypodcast. com. Now back to the men’s therapy podcast. 

Mark: Welcome back to the show. Um, in this segment, we talk directly to you, the listener, and I think we’re going to chat about like, where does the men’s movement go from here, you know, and what are the things that, uh, both Desmond and I are building off of, um, knowing that it is like kind of a consistently growing and evolving thing.

Um, so Desmond, yeah, we heard about your story. We heard about your dad’s story. What’s what’s next? 

Desmond Cohen: Yeah. Um, so in, I think something that I wrote maybe an intro for, um, [00:41:00] the MTO website, I referenced this book or this author, Robert J. Lifton. Um, he’s written a ton of stuff. Uh, I’m pretty sure he’s a psychologist or a psychiatrist.

Um, he’s been writing since the sixties, uh, but up through today. And he coined this term the Protean man. Um, not protein like steak, uh, protean, uh, . And the, as far as I remember, the, uh, the, the core of that is, uh, proteus, the, I think demigod or God. Um, but the idea is, it’s like, it’s, it’s like a river essentially.

It’s this like aquatic force. Um, and basically, uh. Lifton’s theory and part of what he explores in his writings is how is the increased rate of change in culture that a lot of the things that are used to be stable about human culture are changing faster and faster and the periods at which they remain stable are getting smaller and smaller.

So if you think [00:42:00] about The even the like the big concepts that like underpin our culture, um, one, one that always stood out to me was like, uh, telecommunications, you know, we had all these like TV channels that were like, that’s the thing that you go to for your news for like 50 years. Right? Everyone went and watched, uh, what is it?

Walter Cronkite or something for, you know, However, many decades and he was the guy you go to and everybody knew about it. Time magazine, same thing, right? People knew what time magazine is. It created content in a certain way. And it helped create this like cultural, um, hub that stood with the culture for a long period of time.

And the versions of that that we have now are like. Think about it. It’s like Facebook, which is on its way to death basically at this point. Um, before that we had, you know, MySpace and cable news and all sorts of stuff. The way that, um, it’s a lot of it’s like shifted into social media now, um, where we have things like [00:43:00] Twitter, we have things like all these other platforms that have these, like.

Very very big impacts but for shorter and shorter periods of time it seems And the challenge that they talk about is like, oh, how do we keep changing and developing? But they haven’t seemed to found find a way to actually do that yet Uh that it’s this ever shifting stage and the culture will just move so quickly away from Facebook onto tiktok onto you know Whatever the newest thing is and then the culture is just emanating from this whole new source in a massive way and the norms are different and the Expectations are different and the venues are different.

So in order to like participate in society in a way that used to be in a lot of ways, like fairly stable or, and like more known, we have to have this awareness of the ever changing venues of where culture happens. And then the ever changing norms associated with this stuff. And part of what he [00:44:00] talks about is how easy it is to become alienated in this.

That as soon as we don’t track one new change, it’s like we’re totally gone. Think about how easy it is to like make fun of boomers who are still on Facebook. Um, they’re, you know, that’s not that old, right? Facebook was fine five years ago or whatever it is. But it’s very easy to like, there’s derision now associated with not being fast enough and how you track things.

Um, so part of what Lithgow talks about. Is how, as humans, one of the most powerful capacities we have now, and maybe the most powerful capacity is our capacity to change. Our capacity to basically find a sense of safety that exists separate from the changing world around us, and then still be able to attach, um, in a way that’s like, uh, kind of loose, and it feels not shocking to me that more and more people are interested in like ideas of Buddhism, because it seems like it [00:45:00] actually teaches us fairly well of like, Attach in a minute and a minimal way to this big idea of self, try to find this core.

That is the real you that then you can almost like float in this wild, wild river of like crazy rapids and new social media platforms and changing norms and anything associated with this stuff. And that’s actually. Part of what it means to be successful today is being able to ride these things. And what do you think about that as an idea?

Mark: Oh, I, I love that idea. I mean, I think that’s something that personally I’m adapting to as I built MTO of like adapting to where the world is and being really quick and being agile. And I feel like I’m kind of keeping up, right? Like I did the private practice thing well, and now it’s like, okay, next level.

Like, what do you have to do? And what is the landscape look like? Um. And as far as mentioning the, I think we’re saying the same thing, the metaphor I often use with my guys is a metaphor of like a tool belt. Um, you know, I fucking love tools and I think [00:46:00] you also fucking love tools. Like I love getting a new tool to solve a specific problem that I have and it being like effortless, like something that was like felt impossible just becomes effortless.

I’m like, Oh shit. Thing, um, which is like pretty crazy. Right. So with tools, I think of this idea of, you know, as a man, masculinity is about having the biggest tool belt possible and applying it to the situation at the right time. So it’s like, I use the term like right force or right energy, right effort, which is from Buddhism, right.

Of like, sometimes we have to be aggressive, but we don’t want to be too aggressive and we don’t want to be not aggressive enough. We have to apply the right amount of aggression, the right amount of force to make it happen. Sometimes we have to be really caring and compassionate. Right. Right. If our wife comes home or a partner comes home and they are a wreck, like, we need to be able to like, hold them and catch them and support them and like, use that tool.

Right. Sometimes we have to be like, really driven or push ourselves. If we want to go after an athletic goal or whatever, right. If you [00:47:00] really disciplined, like, we got to have the discipline tool, you know, it sounds to be really introspective, right. And those quiet moments when we have to, you know, write poetry or appreciate a sunset or take a hike alone, you know, I think the, what I see is that none of these.

Right. Are bad, right? I think as men, we like picked our favorite tools and then we neglected the other ones. But I think the real masculinity is like becoming a master of all the tools. And like I said, the second part of knowing when which tool to pull out and how to apply it at that moment, which I think really dovetails well with what you’re saying about this like agility and protean man and riverine concept of like being quick and agile and really perceptive.

Which I think a lot of men haven’t had to do because of privilege, we could just like barrel through and not like read the room or read the situation. And I think as power dynamics are shifting, which I personally believe in a good way, we have to be more percent would be more part of a whole rather than being like the center of gravity or center of mass, you know, where everyone organizes 

Desmond Cohen: around us.

Which is [00:48:00] quite a challenge if we haven’t, first of all, if we don’t have the skills to do that, or if it hasn’t been normalized to us, um, it feels like being the, like, barreling person at the front of the spear point. It’s also a pretty isolating experience for most people, it seems. And The it’s it’s like a powerful way to cope with an existing sense of isolation of all just keep running And it will it’ll look like strength.

It’ll feel like strength that sometimes i’ll get external accolades um, but it seems like so many people find that they Their body starts to slow down the they start to hit all these metrics and there’s massive diminishing returns and they slow down for whatever reason and it just the loneliness starts to set in and that seems to be another extremely important part of being a human today is we have to get so much better about learning how to give and receive intimacy with each other than we’ve had to in the past because they’re like part of this idea is that like a lot of those [00:49:00] systems don’t exist to facilitate it for us anymore.

A lot of the like the church groups, the, uh, the Moose Lodge, the, um, even having coworkers, right? How many people just work in isolation in their own homes at this point? So many of these contacts don’t exist anymore for that. Just kind of like did it for us. We have to try in order to make this stuff happen.

And it’s. Yeah, it’s a steep learning curve, but definitely one that a lot of people are putting a ton of effort into right now. And it seems like getting a pretty great results. 

Mark: Yeah, I think community is going to be the thing, right? Um, building community and creating experiences for people that helped them, like, unlock different parts of what it means to be human.

Um, that seems to be what we need, I think now as a culture, because before the previous generation, you know, we talk about Buddhism, they had this idea of the animal realm, which. Is like the horse with the blinders, right? It’s like the horse with the blinders. It just like keeps going no matter what. And that is very masculine.

I don’t want to diminish like there is something, [00:50:00] you know, I think primally masculine about that discipline and about that drive and about the idea of like, I’m going to keep pulling this goddamn cart no matter what. And a lot of those men pulled that cart with their family in it. Right. Like they were pulling a cart for a really good reason.

Um, and you know, back to the tool about metaphor, like that’s one tool. Like, I think we need as men, we need to know how to, when to do that and how to do that, but not at the expense of every other part of our psyche, you know, like there’s like a lot more to being a human and being a man and being on this planet than just like driving.

Yeah. And I hope that we can bring that to the guys that we, that 

Desmond Cohen: we work 

Mark: with, you know. 

Desmond Cohen: I like that. I like the analogy of being the horse, the multi, the multi skilled horse, not just the draft horse, but also the, the racer. And the 1 that gets to chill out 1 that hangs out at the stud farm. 

Mark: Exactly. And the dressage you got there once in a while.

Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You got to have all those things. Um, so, yeah, as we’re coming towards the end here, I guess. And I was [00:51:00] putting you on the spot a little bit, but like, what’s the message that you want to give to our, our listeners out there? So, I mean, they can take away with them or, or think about, um, after they end up with the show here.

Yeah, 

Desmond Cohen: um, I guess I’ll name 1 of the, 1 of the biggest themes. It feels like that we have. As a message from both old masculinity and ideally new masculinity as well is this idea of courage. And I think that that’s one of the biggest ones that ideally we can keep holding is this idea that, um, courage is a really, really wonderful tool.

Um, and, uh, you know, we can talk about, I think there’s like some really fascinating conversations to be had about like the role of literally have like testosterone and literally like helping us feel a reduced awareness of negative outcomes, um, for taking risks essentially. Right. Right. Um, it’s a powerful tool and, uh, I think one of [00:52:00] the ways that we can maybe frame courage in the current era is that it’s not necessarily courage to like.

Bend or warp or damage our bodies or the world around us, it might be more of the courage to, like, be critical of aspects of self of these things that we maybe did hold dear so that we can keep rebuilding it into something great. I think that’s part of that fluidity is being able to continue to, like, to conceptualize what the self is that we’re working with here, which is maybe 1 of the most terrifying things that humans do.

Um, and if we can do that. As a practice, it usually seems to lead us to a much greater sense of connection and safety in the world. Anyway, and I guess, like, uh. Yeah, meaningfulness seems like, 

Mark: yeah, that’s like, really, really well said, I think courage is a huge thing. And just to underline what you’re saying, I’m [00:53:00] hearing you talk about not just like the traditional masculine courage, like running into a firefight, but this idea of like, looking under those emotional rocks, facing our demons, you know, expanding into things that make us uncomfortable, being, being interested by feeling uncomfortable rather than, you know, ignoring it and pushing it away.

So, Desmond, great to have you on the show. These always go by fast. Um, you’ll definitely be on in the future. We’ll just keep kind of talking about these topics. I always like our conversations, but as we’re wrapping up, where can people find you online if they want to hear and learn more about you? 

Desmond Cohen: Yeah, my online presence isn’t huge right now, but I’d say through MTO through our website, I do have like a psychology today profile and my own personal website.

DesmondCullenCounseling. com. I’d say there, yeah, check them out. Look for my movie. Oh, wait, I didn’t make that for my book. Oh, wait. I didn’t write that yet. 

Mark: Okay. And I’ll start soon on Amazon. So published, but [00:54:00] no, uh, there’s a lot of great stuff. Um, and I’m excited to just give you this platform too, and just have more, um, more conversations with you in the future.

So if you’re a listener, if this yeah. Really stood out to you or thinking it was saying to somebody else, please like it, share it, do all the social media stuff, um, give us a five star review on apple. That always helps. If you can only do one thing, that’s the most helpful thing to do, um, or send it to somebody that you feel like needs some of the messages that we’re talking about today.

So thank you so much for tuning in and we’ll see you next week. Another episode of the men’s therapy podcast.

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